Topic: Best look at the upcoming G70 so far.

[Jaeger]

How many manual sedans with more than four cylinders are available today anyways?

I count two, the BMW 340i and the M3, and the former is likely going automatic only with next year's M340i.

Yep. And Genesis is crayyyyzeeee not to be chasing that nearly non existent market segment.  I mean, you can't get a Ferrari with a stick anymore and damon near every Porsche sold is an automatic - but Genesis is StoooPid  not to offer a stick on every version of their new sedan. Yep. Makes sense to me. 

It's going to be a small market either way....might as well been the V6.

I'm guessing the cost benefit analysis is slightly more complicated than that.

I'm sure.

But the V6 is significantly more desirable than a 4 coupled with a manual.  If you're going to build the sportiest unicorn of this model for enthusiasts...and sales will be low anyways....might as well do it right is all I'm saying.

Tell that to Ferarri, Porsche, Lambo, etc.  Being a manual guy myself, it's a sad reality.  But it's reality nonetheless unfortunately.

Reality is what informs the bottom line, not gearhead fantasy.  I'd love it if every damned car came with a manual, too.  But the reality is that market demand is microscopic and diminishing rapidly.  A company that ignores market realities doesn't stay a company for long.  I'm just glad there is a dedicated sporting model available with a manual at all.

Speaking of which - I wonder where off-lease Genesis models are sold?  No way my next car purchase is any sooner than a couple years off - but a 2 or 3 year old G70 Sport just might be it.

[ChaosphereIX]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

If sales are going to be low and expected to be so, why not make a car that will grab you headlines, wins in comparison tests, perhaps "Best Drivers" finalist, etc. It could even start a cult following down the line because it was a performance sedan with a manual - a "nod to the good old days". Now it is just another base model with a manual that nobody wants, even the manual drivers.

It was a poor decision to put the manual with the turbo4, no way around it. Yes, glad we got a manual at all, but still poor decision - like Alfa not offering a manual in NA at all: stupid.

[rrocket]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

Like Jaeger...I'd sure dig an off-lease Sport model manual in a couple of years.  But not with a turbo 4. 

[CanuckS2K]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry. 

[Barton]

How many manual sedans with more than four cylinders are available today anyways?

I count two, the BMW 340i and the M3, and the former is likely going automatic only with next year's M340i.

Precisely.  I looked hard but could not find any sedan + manual + 300 HP + less than $50K other than the BMW.

Do I wish that G70 was offered in manual + 3.3T?  Of course.  But the business case just isn't there.

[Barton]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

Like Jaeger...I'd sure dig an off-lease Sport model manual in a couple of years.  But not with a turbo 4.

Price-point is the issue.

Manual turbo-four is ~$45K.

Don't you think 3.3T in manual will be $55K?  That's BMW 340i territory and not sure if it will sell as well.

[ChaosphereIX]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

different arguments there...

yes Porsche is wrong, as is Ferrari and Lambo for not offering manuals on every model...but that is the reality of the market today and you can see why they did it:

the latter two dont offer a manual at all, so no argument that "they put it on the wrong model," Porsche puts it on the street car that should be about fun, rather than lap times [GT3 RS] where DCT really is a must.

Hyundai just screwed up. Plain and simple. Manual is the enthusiast option, one targeted at drivers and people who want to enjoy the vehicle...so they put the uninspired turbo4 with it? Yes, it can be tuned, but so can a turbo6. And a turbo6 sounds better, has more power and torque, etc. It is the enthusiasts choice. Hyundai screwed up.

[ChaosphereIX]

How many manual sedans with more than four cylinders are available today anyways?

I count two, the BMW 340i and the M3, and the former is likely going automatic only with next year's M340i.

Precisely.  I looked hard but could not find any sedan + manual + 300 HP + less than $50K other than the BMW.

Do I wish that G70 was offered in manual + 3.3T?  Of course.  But the business case just isn't there.

why is there no business case? Is there a better business case for the manual with the turbo4? Hell no.

and as for price point - why can't Hyundai rub shoulders with the BMW - steal some sales from those badge-riding snobs. That is the whole point of Genesis isn't it?

There sure as hell is a business case for the G70 "ENTHUSIAST OPTION" to go up against a big player like the BMW and perhaps steal sales from it. With the turbo4, it is just nowhere.

[rrocket]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

Let's not get crazy comparing exotics and near exotics to a Hyundai.

You been sampling too much beer today?    

[CanuckS2K]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

different arguments there...

yes Porsche is wrong, as is Ferrari and Lambo for not offering manuals on every model...but that is the reality of the market today and you can see why they did it:

the latter two dont offer a manual at all, so no argument that "they put it on the wrong model," Porsche puts it on the street car that should be about fun, rather than lap times [GT3 RS] where DCT really is a must.

Hyundai just screwed up. Plain and simple. Manual is the enthusiast option, one targeted at drivers and people who want to enjoy the vehicle...so they put the uninspired turbo4 with it? Yes, it can be tuned, but so can a turbo6. And a turbo6 sounds better, has more power and torque, etc. It is the enthusiasts choice. Hyundai screwed up.

I'm guessing Hyundai made the decision that they did (like Porsche) for a reason.  So I guess you must know something that they don't. 

[rrocket]

I'm guessing Hyundai made the decision that they did (like Porsche) for a reason.  So I guess you must know something that they don't.

Porsche reason is performance first in their top shelf performance cars. Their autos are quicker shifting than any human...and on their track day special cars, that's important. 

Also, FWIW, their manuals are nowhere near as good as your S2000.

[CanuckS2K]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

Let's not get crazy comparing exotics and near exotics to a Hyundai.

You been sampling too much beer today?   

Nope, just being realistic is all.  You're about going on about a 6 in a Hyundai not having a manual tranny but virtually every exotic doesn't offer one either.  Unlike your beloved Lexus brand, at least the Genesis offers one on at least one model, unlike the IS. 

[rrocket]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

Let's not get crazy comparing exotics and near exotics to a Hyundai.

You been sampling too much beer today?   

Nope, just being realistic is all.  You're about going on about a 6 in a Hyundai not having a manual tranny but virtually every exotic doesn't offer one either.  Unlike your beloved Lexus brand, at least the Genesis offers one on at least one model, unlike the IS.

And there's a reason exotics don't offer it.  Peak performance.  No human shifts as fast as their automatics can.  Which makes sense in an exotic that's trying to see absolute performance.  This is especially so for Ferrari, who's goal and advertising is you're buying F1 technology...but on the street.

I'm not bothered in the least if Lexus doesn't offer a manual.  You could have a manual in the IS250 back in the day.  But I had ZERO interest in it...because the V6 in the IS350 was soooo much better a package...even with an auto.  Would I rather a 4 pot IS with a manual or an IS-F V8 with an auto?  No brainer for me...IS-F.  I'm even critical of cars with so-so manuals.  Yea, it's a manual...but it's not so great.

And I'd feel the same today.  Manual 4 banger Lexus?  Yaaaawn.

[Weels]

Jezus, is Genesis in a no win here or what?  Holey fack.

These guys have given us a great looking inside and out, honest to god sports sedan with three pedals... and it's mostly bitching.   
Me.. if given the choice between the 6 and 4 with the stick i'd go with the 4.  Lighter weight, better handling (i'm assuming because - hey - no one other than Patrick has driven the thing...)  and.... lower price.

6's don't particularly excite me.  They all sound the same.  Go listen to the video clip Jaeger posted of his Genesis - sounds exactly the same as my old Acura TL and Volvo S60.  The 2.0T in the Accord sounds bloody awesome.  It sure changed my mind that a turbo'd 4 can't sound great.

If Genesis had a V8 that they could stuff in the G70... then different story.  Manual that puppy or GTFO. 

I'd rock that car Patrick has right now... oh hell yes. 

[CanuckS2K]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

Let's not get crazy comparing exotics and near exotics to a Hyundai.

You been sampling too much beer today?   

Nope, just being realistic is all.  You're about going on about a 6 in a Hyundai not having a manual tranny but virtually every exotic doesn't offer one either.  Unlike your beloved Lexus brand, at least the Genesis offers one on at least one model, unlike the IS.

And there's a reason exotics don't offer it.  Peak performance.  No human shifts as fast as their automatics can.  Which makes sense in an exotic that's trying to see absolute performance.  This is especially so for Ferrari, who's goal and advertising is you're buying F1 technology...but on the street.

I'm not bothered in the least if Lexus doesn't offer a manual.  You could have a manual in the IS250 back in the day.  But I had ZERO interest in it...because the V6 in the IS350 was soooo much better a package...even with an auto.  Would I rather a 4 pot IS with a manual or an IS-F V8 with an auto?  No brainer for me...IS-F.  I'm even critical of cars with so-so manuals.  Yea, it's a manual...but it's not so great.

And I'd feel the same today.  Manual 4 banger Lexus?  Yaaaawn.

Well it seems you have an answer for everything.  I am surprised you're not a CEO of a car company by now given all of your knowledge.

[rrocket]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

Let's not get crazy comparing exotics and near exotics to a Hyundai.

You been sampling too much beer today?   

Nope, just being realistic is all.  You're about going on about a 6 in a Hyundai not having a manual tranny but virtually every exotic doesn't offer one either.  Unlike your beloved Lexus brand, at least the Genesis offers one on at least one model, unlike the IS.

And there's a reason exotics don't offer it.  Peak performance.  No human shifts as fast as their automatics can.  Which makes sense in an exotic that's trying to see absolute performance.  This is especially so for Ferrari, who's goal and advertising is you're buying F1 technology...but on the street.

I'm not bothered in the least if Lexus doesn't offer a manual.  You could have a manual in the IS250 back in the day.  But I had ZERO interest in it...because the V6 in the IS350 was soooo much better a package...even with an auto.  Would I rather a 4 pot IS with a manual or an IS-F V8 with an auto?  No brainer for me...IS-F.  I'm even critical of cars with so-so manuals.  Yea, it's a manual...but it's not so great.

And I'd feel the same today.  Manual 4 banger Lexus?  Yaaaawn.

Well it seems you have an answer for everything.  I am surprised you're not a CEO of a car company by now given all of your knowledge.

That's not my answer.  It's Ferraris.  And Porsches (why they use autos in their top shelf performance cars).

My personal answer for a manual I'd want to own is "it depends".  I generally find 4s uninspiring.  So I'd give up a manual with a 4 to have a hot V6/V8 in its place.  Now there are exceptions to that rule.  Such as the S2000.  But it's truly one-of-a-kind special car.  Incredible 4, incredible tranny, incredible handling.  What's not to like?

Now I know you're hot and bothered about a Boxster.  And you and I both love the 6 banger Boxsters over the 4 banger Boxsters.  And if the only way to own a 6 banger Boxster was with Porsche's incredible auto tranny?  That's the way I'd go.  I'd rather an auto Boxster 6 banger than a 4 banger manual Boxster.

But that's just me.

[ChaosphereIX]

Jezus, is Genesis in a no win here or what?  Holey fack.

These guys have given us a great looking inside and out, honest to god sports sedan with three pedals... and it's mostly bitching.   
Me.. if given the choice between the 6 and 4 with the stick i'd go with the 4.  Lighter weight, better handling (i'm assuming because - hey - no one other than Patrick has driven the thing...)  and.... lower price.

6's don't particularly excite me.  They all sound the same.  Go listen to the video clip Jaeger posted of his Genesis - sounds exactly the same as my old Acura TL and Volvo S60.  The 2.0T in the Accord sounds bloody awesome.  It sure changed my mind that a turbo'd 4 can't sound great.

If Genesis had a V8 that they could stuff in the G70... then different story.  Manual that puppy or GTFO. 

I'd rock that car Patrick has right now... oh hell yes.

I would rather the V6 - more power, more torque, better sound - few I4Ts sound good, the only one I like is either on a touring car or the 500 Abarth. That is about it. Plus if the V6 is a smaller one, the weight difference between it and a turbo4 is not much.

Properly good V6ones can wail and growl, see the examples below that are near and dear to my heart for instance:

Alfa Romeo Busso V6:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iebzRWe8nZ8 [my car sounds similar]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8IFQ_gNUxgM

But it is a turbo6 you say, and modern...

Saab 2.8T:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mEZ1Yww5A4s

Alfa Romeo 2.9T:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OWGXO8CJEV0

many more examples...such as the V6 in the Evora, or the VQ in the GT-R...

V6 is the enthusiast choice, and Hyundai would have had a killer car if they gave it a manual - a real BMW rival which is what Genesis is aspiring to be...instead...meh...

[CanuckS2K]

but it does not make sense for the market to saddle the turbo4 with the manual - manual drivers often care about performance and engine noise. V6 would be the much better fit.

This.

The average Joe Blow doesn't really care I4 vs V6.  But this model isn't being marketed to Joe Blow.  It's being marketed to Mr. Enthusiast.  And Mr. Enthusiast will take a V6 manual over a I4 manual every single day.

I honestly fail to see the point here.   When high performance exotics like Ferrari and Lambo don't offer one and Hyundai does on their Turbo 4 it's a bad thing?  Porsche doesn't offer one in their GT3 RS either, but one can be found in the much lower priced Boxster.  So is Porsche wrong as well? 

Like I said, I"m a manual guy through and through......heck if a manual was available in my F-150 Lariat I would purchased one.  But the market is the market, and car companies have to keep up with the demands (or lack there of), just like in any other industry.

Let's not get crazy comparing exotics and near exotics to a Hyundai.

You been sampling too much beer today?   

Nope, just being realistic is all.  You're about going on about a 6 in a Hyundai not having a manual tranny but virtually every exotic doesn't offer one either.  Unlike your beloved Lexus brand, at least the Genesis offers one on at least one model, unlike the IS.

And there's a reason exotics don't offer it.  Peak performance.  No human shifts as fast as their automatics can.  Which makes sense in an exotic that's trying to see absolute performance.  This is especially so for Ferrari, who's goal and advertising is you're buying F1 technology...but on the street.

I'm not bothered in the least if Lexus doesn't offer a manual.  You could have a manual in the IS250 back in the day.  But I had ZERO interest in it...because the V6 in the IS350 was soooo much better a package...even with an auto.  Would I rather a 4 pot IS with a manual or an IS-F V8 with an auto?  No brainer for me...IS-F.  I'm even critical of cars with so-so manuals.  Yea, it's a manual...but it's not so great.

And I'd feel the same today.  Manual 4 banger Lexus?  Yaaaawn.

Well of course not, because it's Lexus.  Hyundai is a different story though, right?.  Have you driven either the manual in the 4 banger turbo or the auto in the 6 of the Genesis yet?

[rrocket]

Well of course not, because it's Lexus. 

I also don't care that I can't get a manual with an Infiniti Q60/Red Sport either.  Because it's still awesome.

Feel better?   

I've not driven the G70, as they aren't here yet.

I've driven the Hyundai 2.0T in a manual in a Genesis Coupe though...but I don't think that counts.

[CanuckS2K]

Well of course not, because it's Lexus. 

I also don't care that I can't get a manual with an Infiniti Q60/Red Sport either.  Because it's still awesome.

Feel better?   

I've not driven the G70, as they aren't here yet.

I've driven the Hyundai 2.0T in a manual in a Genesis Coupe though...but I don't think that counts.

Oh I totally know that the Q doesn't come with a manual in any flavours.  As you know, I personally can't stand the trend going with lack of manuals.  But it is what it is I guess.

You just seem to be just fine with the IS350 only coming in auto so I guess I am confused why you expect the V6 Genesis to be equipped with a manual?