Topic: Test Drive: 2017 Subaru Forester 2.5i Touring w/Tech Package

[johngenx]

Just get a used RX

You spoiled that for everyone now.

[ltruong]

If the Subaru reliability issues were as widespread and as concerning as people make them out to be why has Subaru increased both NA and global sales every single year for the past decade and steadily risen up most reputable agencies reliability ratings charts?   

I get the sentiment,  but the exact same could be said for VW.  And they certainly don't get a pass with respect to reliability concerns.

Kind of a crap shoot.  Some have excellent experiences; others brutal.  But frankly, I think that is the same for any German make.

I've own couple VW and my personal experience is the powertrains are reliable but I've always stayed away from gas turbo and auto transmission.  It's the other stuff that breaks down like; door locks and /levers(come on now VW same problem since 1985), parking brake cables, cabin blower...etc  Stuff I can do myself an evening with couple beers.  I had a 2000tdi with over 400K on it and the engine was A1 when I sold it.  I drove it hard and ran strictly dirty rig fuel for over a year.  If I would consider keeping a Subaru for over 300K I would assume having to do the HG and it's not an evening job.

Having said that I'm still considering a forester for my next vehicle.....and a VW.

[Noto]

Honestly, how much is the head gasket?  My buddy had his changed on the 1998 Buick Century at like 80,000km (in 2015).  It was like $1200 at CT.  On average, it'd take 10 years at 20,000 km/year, so budget for it.  It's not like an oxygen sensor on a Corolla or whatever is exactly free, and yet my "epitome of Japanese reliability" needed two and a vacuum switcher valve. But for the ECP, that would have been $800 according to the invoices, Ave the car was only 5 years old.

It's not like this is only a Subaru issue any way.  Same thing, how much is a quart of oil to top up?  Sure, Subaru should cover the cost, but aren't we talking like $50/year in extra oil?

It's not like the Audi 4.2L V8 and it's timing chain woes, or Hyundai's engine debris recall...I think this is all blown so far out of proportion...

[ltruong]

Honestly, how much is the head gasket?  My buddy had his changed on the 1998 Buick Century at like 80,000km (in 2015).  It was like $1200 at CT.  On average, it'd take 10 years at 20,000 km/year, so budget for it.  It's not like an oxygen sensor on a Corolla or whatever is exactly free, and yet my "epitome of Japanese reliability" needed two and a vacuum switcher valve. But for the ECP, that would have been $800 according to the invoices, Ave the car was only 5 years old.

It's not like this is only a Subaru issue any way.  Same thing, how much is a quart of oil to top up?  Sure, Subaru should cover the cost, but aren't we talking like $50/year in extra oil?

It's not like the Audi 4.2L V8 and it's timing chain woes, or Hyundai's engine debris recall...I think this is all blown so far out of proportion...

Here in Calgary I've heard anything from $2,000 to 3,500.  That is only head gasket and would not  have damages to cylinders(I was told). My old neighbor did his in the back alley laying on a sheet of plywood.  Bought the parts online for like $300 and took a weekend and couple evenings.  He didn't remove the engine but He's done a couple.  He used to buy them, replace the HG and sells them to make money.

[johngenx]

$3K is a typical cost for a Subaru head gasket - both sides.  It also seems that the frequency of replacement increases once it's gone once.  It's not trivial, and it happens to a significantly high percentage of owners.  Good luck on taking it to CT - you won't get it done there for $1200.  The boxer engine and the space in the engine bay make this a tedious job.

The thing that I hate the most about it is that Subaru keeps making the same engineering error, year in and out.  This has been an issue for twenty years.

[dirtyjeffer]

...or Hyundai's engine debris recall...

not really the same, as Hyundai is covering it under warranty...the other examples given were known issues that manufacturers turn a blind eye to and make the customer foot the bill...Hyundai has clearly acknowledged the problem and is making steps to remedy the situation...that's what you do...i don't think anyone expects everything to be flawless, but it's nice when a company says "Hey, we screwed up here, let us fix it for you".

[ltruong]

...or Hyundai's engine debris recall...

not really the same, as Hyundai is covering it under warranty...the other examples given were known issues that manufacturers turn a blind eye to and make the customer foot the bill...Hyundai has clearly acknowledged the problem and is making steps to remedy the situation...that's what you do...i don't think anyone expects everything to be flawless, but it's nice when a company says "Hey, we screwed up here, let us fix it for you".

And it's not a design issue but a fabrication/quality control one so the fix does not require a redesign. The Audi tensionner though I've heard they are pretty bad. Gotta keep checking you timing chain.

[sacrat]

It's not like this is only a Subaru issue any way.  Same thing, how much is a quart of oil to top up?  Sure, Subaru should cover the cost, but aren't we talking like $50/year in extra oil?

I think you may have just made the critics' point for them. Any engine that burns this much oil when new will burn much more as it ages increasing the likelihood of a major engine meltdown on a long trip at some point. I had a 1985 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe that also burned oil at an alarming rate when new, and a dealer who said this was normal for this engine. There were a lot of crappy cars in 1985.
One would hope that those days are long gone in ALL modern cars. Apparently not...

Note below what CR considers as the only acceptable solution.

"While some dealers have dismissed oil consumption concerns as “normal,” there’s nothing normal about a dry dipstick between oil changes. Consumer Reports is adamant on this point: “Any engine that burns oil between changes should be repaired under the powertrain warranty.” (CR cites Audi and BMW as other problem engine manufacturers.)"

[dirtyjeffer]

It's not like this is only a Subaru issue any way.  Same thing, how much is a quart of oil to top up?  Sure, Subaru should cover the cost, but aren't we talking like $50/year in extra oil?

I think you may have just made the critics' point for them. Any engine that burns this much oil when new will burn much more as it ages increasing the likelihood of a major engine meltdown on a long trip at some point. I had a 1985 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe that also burned oil at an alarming rate when new, and a dealer who said this was normal for this engine. There were a lot of crappy cars in 1985.
One would hope that those days are long gone in ALL modern cars. Apparently not...

Note below what CR considers as the only acceptable solution.

"While some dealers have dismissed oil consumption concerns as “normal,” there’s nothing normal about a dry dipstick between oil changes. Consumer Reports is adamant on this point: “Any engine that burns oil between changes should be repaired under the powertrain warranty.” (CR cites Audi and BMW as other problem engine manufacturers.)"

Direct Injection motors all burn more oil than what one might expect.  It is actually quite normal.

direct injection has nothing to do with oil consumption...i have two vehicle with DI engines, neither burns oil.

[quadzilla]

Direct Injection motors all burn more oil than what one might expect.  It is actually quite normal.

You sure about that? I'm at 205K and don't burn any oil.

[rrocket]

Direct Injection motors all burn more oil than what one might expect.  It is actually quite normal.

You sure about that? I'm at 205K and don't burn any oil.

I will say, it's at least possible.  Oil can be burned onto the valves in a DI.

But such a small amount per oil change...you'd likely not notice.

[HeliDriver]

Yeah, the DI engine in my GTI has never burned a drop of oil either. (Okay, probably a few drops, but not enough to notice )

Still, adding a bit of oil every now and then doesn't seem like a big deal to me. Maybe it's because I'm used to aircraft, where adding a quart of oil to a Lycoming 540 is just part of the daily routine.

[sacrat]

Just so you don't think I'm randomly bashing Subaru here, I've reposted my very positive impressions from the comparison test of CUVs.

"I sat in a Forester at the auto show in March and was very impressed by the rear visibility. Seat comfort seemed good based admittedly on a short test. It also offers many more safety features at a lower price point than my traditional Hyundai choice. The one I sat in was the same as the test vehicle (2.5 Touring with tech)."

http://www.autotrader.ca/expert/20170510/comparison-test-2017-compact-suvs-part-1-35-000/

Since the show in March, I became more aware of the oil burning issues, so shied away from Subies. My search for high safety content combined with affordable AWD ended less than two weeks ago with the purchase of a low km 2014 Ford Fusion Titanium that has all the safety gear of Subaru's "Eyesight", except reverse automatic braking, and much higher luxury content overall. Ford's rather breathtaking depreciation makes them a better used buy than new as well IMHO..

[johngenx]

I read somewhere that engine tolerances have been relaxed a bit in an effort to allow more oil to flow and reduce internal friction - meaning some modern engines use a bit more oil than their older counterparts.  Not sure how much truth there is to that.  That said, the article was talking about consumption in the range of 1L/15,000km.  Using 1L/15,000km wouldn't set my alarm bells off at all.

[sacrat]

I read somewhere that engine tolerances have been relaxed a bit in an effort to allow more oil to flow and reduce internal friction - meaning some modern engines use a bit more oil than their older counterparts.  Not sure how much truth there is to that.  That said, the article was talking about consumption in the range of 1L/15,000km.  Using 1L/15,000km wouldn't set my alarm bells off at all.

From said article...

" Even seasoned Subie owners have become concerned about an engine that consumes one, two or more litres between scheduled oil changes."

Sounds like easily double that amount. Admittedly that refers to the 2.0, so it's possible the 2.5 isn't quite as bad. I'd absolutely avoid the 2.0 with those numbers. I forget what Sir O said about his Crosstrek after selling it. Sir O...

[johngenx]

Sorry, I should have been clear.  I was referencing the article I read concerning the increase in oil consumption by some newer engines thanks to increases in tolerances in an effort to reduce internal friction.  Not the specific amounts that Subaru owners were experiencing.  It talked about how some of these "loose" engines were using 1L/15,000km as opposed to nearly nil in previous engines built with tighter tolerances.

I know that oil consumption can be an issue in some Subaru engines, and we're talking about some people having to add 2-3L between changes, with Subaru basically stating that 1L/1200km is "acceptable."

[Robin2]

My old 99 impreza RS coupe had headgasket issue.  / leaked externally on left side.  I ended up replacing the engine with late model 2008 engine.  it was better option.

The head gasket started going at 9 years old and around 160k kms.

For oil consumption, the 99coupe RS would take about 1L between oil change interval. 

For my 11wrx, no oil consumption at all.  On the turbo Subaru, it's been a long time they switched to full synthetic oils.  Love using Motul 5w40.

[dirtyjeffer]

I know that oil consumption can be an issue in some Subaru engines, and we're talking about some people having to add 2-3L between changes, with Subaru basically stating that 1L/1200km is "acceptable."

that sounds reasonable...for 1973.

[G.Bombay]

What bothers me is the fact some owners report not needing any extra oil between changes while others with the same engine consuming 1, 2 or 3 L between changes. That just doesn't seem right.
My 2007 Impreza 2.5 did not need extra oil when I owned it.

[Weels]

^  In the three and a bit years we had the Crosstrek it never consumed any oil (at least not a noticeable amount)
But there were a few times I could smell distinct odor of burning oil in the cabin, don't know what was the cause of that.