Topic: Test Drive: 2017 Subaru Forester 2.5i Touring w/Tech Package

[KD]

^ The HG on my OBW blew at ~130K. 

[johngenx]

The super-bummer is that it nearly always seems to go post-warranty period, which I think is one huge contributing factor to Subaru ignoring the issue.  It costs them little.

I do know it's hard to make a boxer that doesn't leak or burn oil.  Porsche cars have been well known for oil puddles forever, and it's only since they completely redesigned the engine with watercooling that they seem to be on track to have solved those issues.  (996s do leak, but at a far less frequent rate than the air-cooled cars)

Most other cars don't have coolant or oil resting, in volumes, on gaskets, especially not top-end gaskets.  A head gasket is actually a tough gasket to get right because of the pressures involved both in terms of combustion, but oil and coolant.  Think about main seals: if the kid at Jiff-em-up-your-pooper Lube overfills your crankcase and the oil can get onto the main seal, it cavitates and destroys the seal.  Seals and gaskets can easily get wrecked by coming in contact with the actual stuff they're sealing and gasketing     against.  The boxer engines make this a real challenge.

They're also expensive to build and repair.  Packaging is a real issue.  But, man, the low center of gravity is so sweet.

A long time ago when we first starting buying Subarus in our family, I loved the way the cars drove, and a chunk of that is thanks to the boxer.  But, I remember thinking "maybe they could slightly tilt an inline four or something, because these things are a real PITA to work on and have those PITA boxer engines issues."

[Noto]

Forgive my frustration, but you speak of these things like you think you have a clue, but in reality, you don't.

You continue to deny that Subaru still has a problem. 

I won't forgive your frustration.  This is a place where folks sharing similar interests (read: not necessarily experiences...) come to discuss.  You can disagree - we all often do, but any disagreement should be respectful or responding in kind.  I would never deny that you have far more mechanical knowledge and experience than I, but I'm at least cordial and try to explain my thoughts as I post them.  I don't recall ever "speaking of these things" like I think I have a clue.  I have no clue.  I explained where my understanding came from, and necessarily changed it as newer and better information came available.

I also never denied that Subaru had a problem, but the reports listed suggest that the oil consumption was limited to certain model years not extending beyond 2014.  How am I then wrong to rely upon that information?  Because you believe it not to be true?

Feel free to continue disagreeing with me, but in the same way that I extend you friendly banter, I would appreciate the same in return instead of personal attacks when you get "frustrated".

See, in this case, I can understand the frustration, but that's true of buying pretty much any used vehicle - you are buying something without a warranty, and often without a history.  You never know how a car was treated, etc.

The car was purchased at the end of the lease from a mutual friend who babies his cars. The driving style and full maintenance history were well known. I actually drove that car when the mutual friend had just picked it up back in 2010.

So a Forester that didn't see any abuse developed the dreaded oil leak at 130,000km. It simply corroborates the other reports and is convincing enough to NOT consider a buy-out at the end of my 39-month lease.

To be clear, I wasn't suggesting that the unit you had experience with was abused/misused...I was suggesting that generally used car purchases have some unknowns.  Of course, even the most well-maintained cars can have failures, and I never denied the existence of the head gasket failure - I merely queried the extent and seriousness of it, having not known the extent of same.

during my last oil change about a month ago, when I went to fill the used oil back into the jug, IT DID NOT FIT. So the dealer OVERFILLED by at least 1 QT over maximum level, and it is hard NOT to think it was done intentionally.

What size bottle are you trying to put it into?  The Forester has a 5.1 quart capacity for oil - always has.

4.73L jug (filled to the brim) + another 1L into another container. I know how to do my math. I know exactly how much I put in to put the level at Max, and I know exactly how much oil was drained.

I would never question your math skills - and definitely seems like there was an overfill there.  Have you brought it up to the dealership service manager?

[johngenx]

Was the over-fill corrected quickly?  I hope so, as that can be a terrible thing to do.  Overfills are one major reason I do all my own changes now.  I have no idea of why it's so common.

[draghon]

I think sometimes overfill occurs because the tech doesn't take the time to fully drain the old oil. I worked in a Canadian Tire service center many years ago and it was pretty common for the tech to replace the drain plug before the old oil was finished draining to save time. Then they just fill with the prescribed amount of oil. Another reason to do your own oil changes.

[whaddaiknow]

Was the over-fill corrected quickly?  I hope so, as that can be a terrible thing to do.  Overfills are one major reason I do all my own changes now.  I have no idea of why it's so common.

I did not know it was overfilled until I completed my own oil change after driving the car for 10,000km.
In my case, it might have been a non-issue, or not serious enough, as I drive this car like a granpa and the tach rarely ventures beyond 4,000RPM.
But the fact remains that, of all things that the dealer could fack up, it facked up the one most common thing that Subaru is known for - oil. And then my friend with his well-taken-care-of 2010 Forester leaking oil.

I will enjoy my Fozzie for the duration of the lease but the chances of me buying it out at the end are slim to none.

[Seafoam]

Subaru lovers don't worry the bashing will end once winter roles around. At that point they will be singing the all wheel drive's prowess.
Head gaskets and oil consumption will all be forgotten.

[Ex-airbalancer]

^ The HG on my OBW blew at ~130K.

Get a Lexus next time   

Oh, you did 

[lebowski]

^ The HG on my OBW blew at ~130K.

That stinks, sorry. What year was yours? My LGT is approaching 160k, wondering how wary I need to be.

[johngenx]

^ The HG on my OBW blew at ~130K.

That stinks, sorry. What year was yours? My LGT is approaching 160k, wondering how wary I need to be.

For starters, change the coolant every other year.  It probably won't mean the HG won't ever go, but it seems to extend it's life.  I did this on our Forester and we're on the original head gasket and it didn't start leaking until about 320K or so.  Anyone I've known that went kinda overkill on coolant changes seems to have extended the life of their gasket.

Is your a turbo engine?  If so, you're in better shape as the HG's on the turbos are less failure prone.  The issue with those 2.5L turbos is the turbo itself.  Fresh oil/filter is key and try not to hot-stop the engine as much as possible.  Even 10-20 seconds of idle after hard driving really seems to help.  Some people go nuts with turbo timers that run for 5 minutes and so on, but it seems like that is over-kill - just a little idle time seems to help a lot - spool down before shutting off the oil pressure.

[lebowski]

For starters, change the coolant every other year.  It probably won't mean the HG won't ever go, but it seems to extend it's life.  I did this on our Forester and we're on the original head gasket and it didn't start leaking until about 320K or so.  Anyone I've known that went kinda overkill on coolant changes seems to have extended the life of their gasket.

Is your a turbo engine?  If so, you're in better shape as the HG's on the turbos are less failure prone.  The issue with those 2.5L turbos is the turbo itself.  Fresh oil/filter is key and try not to hot-stop the engine as much as possible.  Even 10-20 seconds of idle after hard driving really seems to help.  Some people go nuts with turbo timers that run for 5 minutes and so on, but it seems like that is over-kill - just a little idle time seems to help a lot - spool down before shutting off the oil pressure.

Thanks johngenx, great info and much appreciated. Yep, it's a turbo, so sadly I am acquainted with some of those inherent weaknesses; turbo blew and had it rebuilt at ~110k. Running well now, but of course good to know those best practices.

[dirtyjeffer]

Subaru lovers don't worry the bashing will end once winter roles around. At that point they will be singing the all wheel drive's prowess.

their advantage isn't what it once was...many brands now use very advanced systems, many of which are on par with Subaru's...all the while, not having to worry about:

Head gaskets and oil consumption will all be forgotten.

[Seafoam]

Subaru lovers don't worry the bashing will end once winter roles around. At that point they will be singing the all wheel drive's prowess.

their advantage isn't what it once was...many brands now use very advanced systems, many of which are on par with Subaru's...all the while, not having to worry about:

Head gaskets and oil consumption will all be forgotten.

Many brands being?? Didn't want to get into that debate. Besides wait until winter.
Just trying to lighten it up a little.

[johngenx]

turbo blew and had it rebuilt at ~110k. Running well now, but of course good to know those best practices.

Uh, sorry to hear you're on your second turbo.  Not unusual for those engine, but a bummer all the same.

[johngenx]

Subaru's AWD is damned awesome, all of them.  It truly is their one major competitive advantage.  As for other systems, Honda sells the SH-AWD and there are some others, but more and more makers are using slip/grip systems to try to eak as much fuel economy out of their AWD vehicles as possible.  The reality for most people is that those slip/grip systems are more than adequate.  Also, those systems are becoming better all the time - but I still prefer true full-time AWD.

One make that's really put a LOT of effort into improving their AWD is Mazda.  The CX-5 system is really good.  Toyota has ditched the full time system from the Highlander in an effort to increase fuel economy and decrease complexity.  The new "power take off" type of AWD it uses is very mechanically simple - but uses a lot of computer wizardry to keep it effective.  I prefer the true full time system from the Gen 1 and 2 Highlanders, but the fact that the newest Highlander is so large/heavy and gets pretty good fuel economy means they're probably onto something.  From a long term ownership standpoint, the new AWD is really nice in that it's easily accessed and maintained.  How often can you say that about newer models?   

Subaru has kept their AWD (save for the BRZ) and I don't see them changing any time soon after investing so much in the technology and the marketing around it.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Subaru's AWD is damned awesome, all of them.  It truly is their one major competitive advantage.  As for other systems, Honda sells the SH-AWD and there are some others, but more and more makers are using slip/grip systems to try to eak as much fuel economy out of their AWD vehicles as possible.  The reality for most people is that those slip/grip systems are more than adequate.  Also, those systems are becoming better all the time - but I still prefer true full-time AWD.

One make that's really put a LOT of effort into improving their AWD is Mazda.  The CX-5 system is really good.  Toyota has ditched the full time system from the Highlander in an effort to increase fuel economy and decrease complexity.  The new "power take off" type of AWD it uses is very mechanically simple - but uses a lot of computer wizardry to keep it effective.  I prefer the true full time system from the Gen 1 and 2 Highlanders, but the fact that the newest Highlander is so large/heavy and gets pretty good fuel economy means they're probably onto something.  From a long term ownership standpoint, the new AWD is really nice in that it's easily accessed and maintained.  How often can you say that about newer models?   

Subaru has kept their AWD (save for the BRZ) and I don't see them changing any time soon after investing so much in the technology and the marketing around it.

The AWD isn't the problem here.  It's that Boxer engine.

Nobody is disagreeing that Subaru's AWD system is one of the best in the business - at least their older viscous coupling AWD is - the newer VTD systems, not so much.

[johngenx]

The AWD isn't the problem here.  It's that Boxer engine.

Completely agree.  Well, I have some other bones to pick with them - if you work on them at all you also find many quirks in design that are "German like" in that they're frustrating because they look to be avoidable - like putting critical bolts in places where you need to do un-related disassembly to reach.  Yeah, I know others do that, but our Forester is one of the more frustrating ones I've worked on.

The dealer network leaves a lot to be desired, but that's because of them being a small niche player for so long.  That could be revamped now.

I'd still consider a Forester XT were I CUV shopping - I think it's a sweet product that checks many of my boxes - my only concern would be long term reliability given that I keep my cars for a loooong time (430K on the Forester in our house I think speaks to that point...     )

[dirtyjeffer]

Require back up data to confirm the advanced systems that are on par overall with the full time system that Subaru has (note that they have more than one 'system').

if this discussion were 10 years ago, the list would be very short and i would agree with you...but not so much any more...there are several systems out there that are full time AWD and that use advanced features (torque vectoring, etc) to maximize the all wheel traction...the SH-AWD was already mentioned, but Audi's Quattro, the Magna system used in the current Kia/Hyundai products, the new iActive AWD set up from Mazda and even the S-AWC from Mitsubishi to name a few...there's likely others too, like X-Drive from BMW and 4-matic from MB, but i'm not 100% certain about those...there's no denying that the Subaru set up is very good, but they no longer hold exclusivity in that field...there are plenty of very good systems out there from a variety of brands.

[PJungnitsch]

As we are considering one, see lots of Foresters around Edmonton now. But this is not reassuring!

Both our CRV and Vibe are pretty much 'change the oil and go' vehicles.

[HeliDriver]

Require back up data to confirm the advanced systems that are on par overall with the full time system that Subaru has (note that they have more than one 'system').

if this discussion were 10 years ago, the list would be very short and i would agree with you...but not so much any more...there are several systems out there that are full time AWD and that use advanced features (torque vectoring, etc) to maximize the all wheel traction...the SH-AWD was already mentioned, but Audi's Quattro, the Magna system used in the current Kia/Hyundai products, the new iActive AWD set up from Mazda and even the S-AWC from Mitsubishi to name a few...there's likely others too, like X-Drive from BMW and 4-matic from MB, but i'm not 100% certain about those...there's no denying that the Subaru set up is very good, but they no longer hold exclusivity in that field...there are plenty of very good systems out there from a variety of brands.

But even within that mix there are variations.  For example, the Audi S3 has quattro.  But not really.  It is a highly advanced Haldex system with instant slip and grip.  There are jewels here but there is also a lot of coal within same brands with watered down AWD.  If you know what I mean...

And hasn't Audi watered down the quattro system in even the longitudinal engined cars? Turned it into slip and grip like the Haldex-based system, then renamed it super quattro or something?