Topic: Test Drive: 2017 Subaru Forester 2.5i Touring w/Tech Package

[Noto]

It's not like this is only a Subaru issue any way.  Same thing, how much is a quart of oil to top up?  Sure, Subaru should cover the cost, but aren't we talking like $50/year in extra oil?

I think you may have just made the critics' point for them. Any engine that burns this much oil when new will burn much more as it ages increasing the likelihood of a major engine meltdown on a long trip at some point. I had a 1985 Thunderbird Turbo Coupe that also burned oil at an alarming rate when new, and a dealer who said this was normal for this engine. There were a lot of crappy cars in 1985.
One would hope that those days are long gone in ALL modern cars. Apparently not...

Note below what CR considers as the only acceptable solution.

"While some dealers have dismissed oil consumption concerns as “normal,” there’s nothing normal about a dry dipstick between oil changes. Consumer Reports is adamant on this point: “Any engine that burns oil between changes should be repaired under the powertrain warranty.” (CR cites Audi and BMW as other problem engine manufacturers.)"

Direct Injection motors all burn more oil than what one might expect.  It is actually quite normal.

My father in law had to add a litre of oil to the 996 Turbo every month... He never complained, not does anyone over a Porsche.

I'm not saying 1L/1200km is acceptable, but it sounds like most people aren't running their engines dry and still not having issues.

And if it's that bad, then go to Mazda's oil change interval of fricken 4 months!!  Doubt many people would have to add oil if changing the frequently.

[Fobroader]

Who the hell waits 4 months for an oil change?? What, are you guys driving around the block once a week??

Sent from my SM-G930W8 using Tapatalk

[Gurgie]

My father in law had to add a litre of oil to the 996 Turbo every month... He never complained, not does anyone over a Porsche.

Well... with a Porsche, if there's no oil under it, there's no oil in it 

[84im]

...or Hyundai's engine debris recall...

not really the same, as Hyundai is covering it under warranty...the other examples given were known issues that manufacturers turn a blind eye to and make the customer foot the bill...Hyundai has clearly acknowledged the problem and is making steps to remedy the situation...that's what you do...i don't think anyone expects everything to be flawless, but it's nice when a company says "Hey, we screwed up here, let us fix it for you".

What a joke.   

Hyundai is as bad as the rest of the auto industry.  Recently Hyundai had to recall 240,000 cars, but not because Hyundai wanted to fix their mistakes.  The Korean government ordered Hyundai and Kia to recall the cars after a tip off from a whistleblower.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39893111

"Hey, we screwed up here, let us fix it for you" should be "Hey, we got caught so we have to fix it for you"

[Noto]

That's my point.  I think complaints with modern day internet forums, etc. make everyone feel "entitled".  I think it actually is for the better, as clearly it highlighted the issue to Subaru, who has subsequently rectified the issue on newer models:

involves owners of 2012-2013 Imprezas, as well as 2011-2014 Forester, 2013 Legacy, 2013 Outback, and 2013 XV Crosstrek models."
http://www.wheels.ca/car-reviews/buying-used-2012-16-subaru-impreza/

...but much of this is fairly blown out of proportion.  To call Subaru unreliable because of that, when the "perfect" Honda and Toyota have had their share of issues, is a sham.  Literally, every time there's a Subaru article, nitwits come up and bash the entire brand as unreliable - yet, the same doesn't come up (necessarily) every time a FCA, FGC, or FBC article is posted.

It just turns into useless banter, rather than highlighting the important bits, like how the Forester is now actually quieter (addressing a MASSIVE complaint).  Granted, this unit was highlighted as having other issues including the power liftgate, but it was also qualified by the whole "it was abused on the auto show floor" thing - it'd be under warranty, any way

[Great_Big_Abyss]

...but much of this is fairly blown out of proportion.  To call Subaru unreliable because of that, when the "perfect" Honda and Toyota have had their share of issues, is a sham.  Literally, every time there's a Subaru article, nitwits come up and bash the entire brand as unreliable - yet, the same doesn't come up (necessarily) every time a FCA, FGC, or FBC article is posted.

Are you joking?  ANYTIME an FCA vehicle is reviewed, FCA's poor reliability and build quality comes up.  Don't even get me started on FGC reviews.  It is WELL documented that this forum is biased against anything german when it comes to reliability.

And, where do you get off (a few posts earlier) comparing a failed O2 sensor on a Corolla to having to replace headgaskets on a boxer engine?  Seeing as you have a very loose grasp of anything mechanical, let me explain to you.  To replace an O2 sensor, you need to lift the car up in order to gain access to the underside.  Once under the car, you need to locate the O2 sensors (there will be 2, one before the catalytic converter, usually right after the header, and one after the catalytic converter).  You unplug the wire, and unscrew the sensor.  You screw in the new sensor, then replug the wire.  Then you lower the car.  That's like, what, 4 steps?  15 minutes max for a professional mechanic in a fully equipped shop.  Maybe an hour for the DIYer in a driveway, fiddling around with jack and jackstands and all that crap.

The headgasket?  Hmm, where do I even begin?  I won't bother listing the procedure because it's many, many steps that involves disassembling your engine.  And the steps you follow need to be repeated, once for each side (an inline-4 is a LOT easier, as the head is located on top with easy access, and there is only one of them.

Look, No-San, your bias towards Subarus is well known.  But to call a headgasket failure at anything less than 200k 'trivial' is a stretch. 

[dirtyjeffer]

...or Hyundai's engine debris recall...

not really the same, as Hyundai is covering it under warranty...the other examples given were known issues that manufacturers turn a blind eye to and make the customer foot the bill...Hyundai has clearly acknowledged the problem and is making steps to remedy the situation...that's what you do...i don't think anyone expects everything to be flawless, but it's nice when a company says "Hey, we screwed up here, let us fix it for you".

What a joke.   

Hyundai is as bad as the rest of the auto industry.  Recently Hyundai had to recall 240,000 cars, but not because Hyundai wanted to fix their mistakes.  The Korean government ordered Hyundai and Kia to recall the cars after a tip off from a whistleblower.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39893111

"Hey, we screwed up here, let us fix it for you" should be "Hey, we got caught so we have to fix it for you"

first i've heard of that (interesting read), but it certainly happens out there...in the end, the result is the same, the customers are getting their vehicles fixed for free...no reason the other brands can't do it too (understandably, they don't want to because of the massive costs).

[NormT]

Looks like it is still going on:

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/oil-usage-2017-forester-644970/#/topics/644970?page=1

[sailor723]

Looks like it is still going on:

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/oil-usage-2017-forester-644970/#/topics/644970?page=1

Maybe Subaru has figured out how to "fool all of the people all of the time"......or at least enough of them that doing nothing is cheaper than fixing the issue. 

[JRM]

Not so perfect Forester AWD?

https://youtu.be/PUXCKaR9ZUo

What is up with partial zero emission vehicle(PZEV) when the fuel system is completely sealed?  Is it truly sealed or is it 100% partial?! More marketing goop?

Oil burn much anymore?

We are approaching a year of ownership with our 17 Forester and I can say it has been absolutely trouble free in every respect.  Plus, after having gone through a legit northern BC winter (not this so called winter they get in Vancouver ), I can say it performs flawlessly in the worst winter conditions (we're talking huge snow dumps, freezing rain, black ice, sluch, ect....).  That said, I am a true northerner and put proper studded winter tires on the Forrester and I will acknowledge that makes a HUGE difference in any car let alone an AWD car.  The oil burning myths - they are just that, myths in my experience.  I've had the Impreza for almost 10 years and now the Forester for almost one year and both have been a great ownership experiences.

One year of ownership from new isn't exactly a benchmark for long term reliability.  If you tell me you've had zero problems on your 10 year old Impreza, then I'll take that as a much bigger indication of long term reliability.

Where does this unicorn exist?  I must know!

Reliability is a function of comparison rather than absolutes.  I agree that 1 year is not very long (obviously) but drive a German car for a year and report back....

I'm on my 2nd (German) VW: 1st - 2010 Golf with 2.5 l, 5 cyl; 0 problems over 4 years/60K.   2nd - 2014 Passat with 1.8l tsi.  So far, at 3.5 years/50K; 1 small reprogramming adjustment re. oxygen sensor, which was very recent.  I'm happy, except for the TDI deception.  I know 2 people who have had serious oil consumption issues from the get go with their Impreza, though.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

Not so perfect Forester AWD?

https://youtu.be/PUXCKaR9ZUo

What is up with partial zero emission vehicle(PZEV) when the fuel system is completely sealed?  Is it truly sealed or is it 100% partial?! More marketing goop?

Oil burn much anymore?

We are approaching a year of ownership with our 17 Forester and I can say it has been absolutely trouble free in every respect.  Plus, after having gone through a legit northern BC winter (not this so called winter they get in Vancouver ), I can say it performs flawlessly in the worst winter conditions (we're talking huge snow dumps, freezing rain, black ice, sluch, ect....).  That said, I am a true northerner and put proper studded winter tires on the Forrester and I will acknowledge that makes a HUGE difference in any car let alone an AWD car.  The oil burning myths - they are just that, myths in my experience.  I've had the Impreza for almost 10 years and now the Forester for almost one year and both have been a great ownership experiences.

One year of ownership from new isn't exactly a benchmark for long term reliability.  If you tell me you've had zero problems on your 10 year old Impreza, then I'll take that as a much bigger indication of long term reliability.

Where does this unicorn exist?  I must know!

Reliability is a function of comparison rather than absolutes.  I agree that 1 year is not very long (obviously) but drive a German car for a year and report back....

My intent wasn't to suggest that a car will have 0 problems over 10 years.  Rather, I was trying to say that 1 year of ownership is a poor test for long term reliability, and that 10 years of ownership (or a 10 year old car) is a much better indicator.  If all a car has go wrong with it over 10 years is a couple of bad sensors, then that's a very good indicator that it's a very reliable vehicle.  If, within those 10 years, you need a new transmission (Chryslers), head gasket (Subarus), ECU (Hyundais?), or have a multitude of electrical gremlins (FGC) then it's a good indicator that it's an unreliable vehicle.

[Rupert]

   Apart from regular servicing oil changes, I have not had to add or buy oil for donkeys years...4 decades at least. Except when I used to change the oil myself. Soon disabused myself of that practice...not worth the trouble.

[Noto]

And, where do you get off (a few posts earlier) comparing a failed O2 sensor on a Corolla to having to replace headgaskets on a boxer engine?  Seeing as you have a very loose grasp of anything mechanical, let me explain to you.  To replace an O2 sensor, you need to lift the car up in order to gain access to the underside.  Once under the car, you need to locate the O2 sensors (there will be 2, one before the catalytic converter, usually right after the header, and one after the catalytic converter).  You unplug the wire, and unscrew the sensor.  You screw in the new sensor, then replug the wire.  Then you lower the car.  That's like, what, 4 steps?  15 minutes max for a professional mechanic in a fully equipped shop.  Maybe an hour for the DIYer in a driveway, fiddling around with jack and jackstands and all that crap.

If you read my earlier post, my argument was prefaced on the belief that a headgasket repair was $1,200 because that's what it cost to replace on my buddy's Buick.  My point about the oxygen sensor was that Toyota charged over $800 (covered under ECP) for the oxygen sensors/vacuum switcher valve to replace and that was far sooner than 200,000km.  It was merely a point of comparison.

My point regarding factoring in the cost of a headgasket replacement is necessarily moot if the bill is closer to $3,000 rather than the $1,200 I assumed based on the Buick (a totally different engine type and manufacturer, for sure).  I've not seen any proof of claimed cost of $3,000 for the Subarus - and if true, again, my argument would necessarily change.

You don't have to be a d!ck about it.

[Noto]

Looks like it is still going on:

http://www.subaruforester.org/vbulletin/f88/oil-usage-2017-forester-644970/#/topics/644970?page=1

So you post one guy's question that the first time he checked his oil, it was low...with nothing else?  And you consider that "still going on"?

What if the dealership didn't sufficiently fill the fluids on prep for delivery to the customer?  The guy hasn't said that he filled it, and another 1,300mi later, the oil is back down...it's an initial complaint on a new car - I'd blame the dealership before slamming the manufacturer.

[whaddaiknow]

And, where do you get off (a few posts earlier) comparing a failed O2 sensor on a Corolla to having to replace headgaskets on a boxer engine?  Seeing as you have a very loose grasp of anything mechanical, let me explain to you.  To replace an O2 sensor, you need to lift the car up in order to gain access to the underside.  Once under the car, you need to locate the O2 sensors (there will be 2, one before the catalytic converter, usually right after the header, and one after the catalytic converter).  You unplug the wire, and unscrew the sensor.  You screw in the new sensor, then replug the wire.  Then you lower the car.  That's like, what, 4 steps?  15 minutes max for a professional mechanic in a fully equipped shop.  Maybe an hour for the DIYer in a driveway, fiddling around with jack and jackstands and all that crap.

If you read my earlier post, my argument was prefaced on the belief that a headgasket repair was $1,200 because that's what it cost to replace on my buddy's Buick.  My point about the oxygen sensor was that Toyota charged over $800 (covered under ECP) for the oxygen sensors/vacuum switcher valve to replace and that was far sooner than 200,000km.  It was merely a point of comparison.

My point regarding factoring in the cost of a headgasket replacement is necessarily moot if the bill is closer to $3,000 rather than the $1,200 I assumed based on the Buick (a totally different engine type and manufacturer, for sure).  I've not seen any proof of claimed cost of $3,000 for the Subarus - and if true, again, my argument would necessarily change.

You don't have to be a d!ck about it.

A friend of mine bought a used 2010 Forester back in 2013. Now, at 130,000km, the engine is leaking oil and Subaru wants $3,500 for the HG job. As mentioned many times before, in most cases with Subaru, it is a second owner problem, which makes it even more painful when you buy a car for $12-15k and then a couple of years down the road have to pay another $3k to get a well-known issue fixed on a car that is now worth $7k. That's a tough pill to swallow, and I definitely can see people turning their back on the brand.

In my case, I haven't noticed any oil consumption issues (yet). But, and that pisses me off, during my last oil change about a month ago, when I went to fill the used oil back into the jug, IT DID NOT FIT. So the dealer OVERFILLED by at least 1 QT over maximum level, and it is hard NOT to think it was done intentionally.

As a Subaru owner, that really pisses me off, and makes me look the other way towards the Honda or Toyota dealership.

[johngenx]

I checked CR's reliability ratings for the Gen 10 Corolla, and it's a sea of bright green dots.  Not a single angry-looking red dot to be had.  $800 for an O2 sensor is sure on the high end, it must have been the "upstream" sensor, which is one of the more expensive sensors on the market at $300 - but it's not a simple sensor like you find behind the cat, it's an A/F meter.

I know there are indie techs that will estimate a Subaru H/G job at $1500, but if you see that number, run away, unless they're a good friend of yours and you know you're getting a bro-deal.  It's not technically difficult, but it's an involved job with a lot of steps that requires time.  I thought about doing the ones on our Forester, as I've done a few on other cars, and ugh, what a job.  Those damn heads are right up against the fenders, what a PITA.  I used to curse Porsche for using the boxer when it was service time, but at least on the older cars they made it pretty simple to drop the engine.  I remember my wife's reaction when I told her the car required the engine to come out for a major service.  Wish I'd got it on film!  (though the language was for sure NSFW)

With all that's required, you sure don't want a botched H/G job, so most people either use the dealer (expensive!) or a specialized Subaru indie, and they usually cost close to what a dealer charges.

[Noto]

during my last oil change about a month ago, when I went to fill the used oil back into the jug, IT DID NOT FIT. So the dealer OVERFILLED by at least 1 QT over maximum level, and it is hard NOT to think it was done intentionally.

What size bottle are you trying to put it into?  The Forester has a 5.1 quart capacity for oil - always has.

I know there are indie techs that will estimate a Subaru H/G job at $1500, but if you see that number, run away,

A friend of mine bought a used 2010 Forester back in 2013. Now, at 130,000km, the engine is leaking oil and Subaru wants $3,500 for the HG job. As mentioned many times before, in most cases with Subaru, it is a second owner problem, which makes it even more painful when you buy a car for $12-15k and then a couple of years down the road have to pay another $3k to get a well-known issue fixed on a car that is now worth $7k.

See, in this case, I can understand the frustration, but that's true of buying pretty much any used vehicle - you are buying something without a warranty, and often without a history.  You never know how a car was treated, etc.

Now, where there is a virtual certainty of failure around a certain point (again, e.g. being the Audi 4.2L V8 timing chain), you have to either take the risk, buy an extended warranty, or factor the cost of repair into the purchase.

Nobody in my family has ever had a vehicle go over 200,000km - so even buying a new car where the headgasket could fail around that mark doesn't scare me off of long-term ownership.  It would certainly be at the top of my mind if I were buying a car to last 300,000 trouble-free kms (though I can't honestly think of any car I'd trust to be THAT solid).

Some people don't ever buy new.  That's a solid prerogative - and one that often pays off big time (see DKaz's post re his 2000 Odyssey!!).  Other times, you can look into the used car market and never know what you'll get.  I was tempted by an Acura 3.2 TL a little while back and everyone here said "expect the transmission to blow any time."  That's surely a ~$3,000 job!  ...but if Honda's transmissions are failing at 90,000km and in a large number of cases, then that scares me off buying new.  Problems showing up at 200,000km - I don't even consider it.

[dirtyjeffer]

I'm on my 2nd (German) VW: 1st - 2010 Golf with 2.5 l, 5 cyl; 0 problems over 4 years/60K.   2nd - 2014 Passat with 1.8l tsi.  So far, at 3.5 years/50K; 1 small reprogramming adjustment re. oxygen sensor, which was very recent.  I'm happy, except for the TDI deception.  I know 2 people who have had serious oil consumption issues from the get go with their Impreza, though.

regarding VW, my parents are about to turn their 2009 Jetta TDi wagon in (dieselgate buyback program)...i know VW gets flack, but honestly, in the 8 years they've had it, it's been pretty good...aside from regular maintenance, the only extras were headlights (just done), a broken antenna (garage door hit it, not VWs fault) and a faulty truck latch that wouldn't unlock sometimes (about $400)...all in all, it has served them quite well and has been reliable for them...not sure if it matters, but theirs was the last year they were made in Germany.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

And, where do you get off (a few posts earlier) comparing a failed O2 sensor on a Corolla to having to replace headgaskets on a boxer engine?  Seeing as you have a very loose grasp of anything mechanical, let me explain to you.  To replace an O2 sensor, you need to lift the car up in order to gain access to the underside.  Once under the car, you need to locate the O2 sensors (there will be 2, one before the catalytic converter, usually right after the header, and one after the catalytic converter).  You unplug the wire, and unscrew the sensor.  You screw in the new sensor, then replug the wire.  Then you lower the car.  That's like, what, 4 steps?  15 minutes max for a professional mechanic in a fully equipped shop.  Maybe an hour for the DIYer in a driveway, fiddling around with jack and jackstands and all that crap.

If you read my earlier post, my argument was prefaced on the belief that a headgasket repair was $1,200 because that's what it cost to replace on my buddy's Buick.  My point about the oxygen sensor was that Toyota charged over $800 (covered under ECP) for the oxygen sensors/vacuum switcher valve to replace and that was far sooner than 200,000km.  It was merely a point of comparison.

My point regarding factoring in the cost of a headgasket replacement is necessarily moot if the bill is closer to $3,000 rather than the $1,200 I assumed based on the Buick (a totally different engine type and manufacturer, for sure).  I've not seen any proof of claimed cost of $3,000 for the Subarus - and if true, again, my argument would necessarily change.

You don't have to be a d!ck about it.

Forgive my frustration, but you speak of these things like you think you have a clue, but in reality, you don't.  I've disassembled a 4-cylinder engine to its basic components.  I've removed the cylinder heads on a pushrod V6 while it was still in the vehicle (broken timing belt, and needed to verify the valves didn't go damage the pistons).  I know the amount of work that is required to do a lot of these jobs.  So forgive me if I get a little shitty when you start comparing one mechanical job to another without knowing the true extent of things.

You continue to deny that Subaru still has a problem.  Now, I'm not denying nor confirming (I don't have enough information), but there are a LOT of people with the technical know-how to recognize an on-going problem that are telling you that yes, there is still a problem.

The one constant about a Subaru thread is that No-San is in here defending the brand until the death.  I drive a Chrysler.  You won't see me defending Chrysler's reliability because I know full well that they build relatively shitty, disposable vehicles, although they're 'good enough'. 

[whaddaiknow]

during my last oil change about a month ago, when I went to fill the used oil back into the jug, IT DID NOT FIT. So the dealer OVERFILLED by at least 1 QT over maximum level, and it is hard NOT to think it was done intentionally.

What size bottle are you trying to put it into?  The Forester has a 5.1 quart capacity for oil - always has.

4.73L jug (filled to the brim) + another 1L into another container. I know how to do my math. I know exactly how much I put in to put the level at Max, and I know exactly how much oil was drained.

I know there are indie techs that will estimate a Subaru H/G job at $1500, but if you see that number, run away,

A friend of mine bought a used 2010 Forester back in 2013. Now, at 130,000km, the engine is leaking oil and Subaru wants $3,500 for the HG job. As mentioned many times before, in most cases with Subaru, it is a second owner problem, which makes it even more painful when you buy a car for $12-15k and then a couple of years down the road have to pay another $3k to get a well-known issue fixed on a car that is now worth $7k.

See, in this case, I can understand the frustration, but that's true of buying pretty much any used vehicle - you are buying something without a warranty, and often without a history.  You never know how a car was treated, etc.

The car was purchased at the end of the lease from a mutual friend who babies his cars. The driving style and full maintenance history were well known. I actually drove that car when the mutual friend had just picked it up back in 2010.

So a Forester that didn't see any abuse developed the dreaded oil leak at 130,000km. It simply corroborates the other reports and is convincing enough to NOT consider a buy-out at the end of my 39-month lease.