Topic: Test Drive: 2017 Subaru Crosstrek Kazan Edition

[Weels]

It is a good value, i'll give it that.
It's size also makes it unique in the segment -- smaller than CX-5/CRV/RAV but bigger than the mini ute's HRV's etc.
I suspect that is also a big part of the appeal

[Cord]

Yes, this car seems like a fine value.

Now that that's out of the way, there seems to be some misunderstandings around here regarding prices and how there should be stated and compared.

Either way, it's still very good value, as you have to add all of that on to any of it's competitors.

No, you don't.

The only things that any competitors will also add are taxes and mandatory fees. Freight, PDI, and fees are not the same for every car. For example, Subaru itself (not Subaru dealers) lists a $395 Administration fee. Other manufacturers do not list that fee. Freight and PDI are also not the same for every brand. Quoting only base MSRP before things like freight, PDI, and fees is just presenting incomplete information. Sort of like ignoring that an option is $1500 on one car and $1900 on another.

The only reason manufacturers highlight these base MSRP numbers is to further their own marketing. $24,999 just looks better to consumers than the real $27,000+. There is no inherent "correctness" to these base numbers. Why be complicit in letting car makers trick consumers into thinking the products are thousands less than what they really are?

The only price allowed should be the "all in" price including fees and taxes. If MSRPs are quoted though, everyone knows that taxes and fees are extra, so it's not being disingenuous to stick with MSRP.

I would add, complete MSRPs - as you say, MSRPs that include everything except taxes and mandatory fees. And, of course, quoting prices including taxes really only works if comparing prices in the same region (which does not work on a forum like this).

[johngenx]

I agree that pricing is becoming a convoluted game.  Subaru dealers here are among the worst for inflating MSRP prices, and even Subaru Canada is horrible.  $395 admin fee from the maker?  Great.  THAT should be in the MSRP.  Since freight and PDI are "postage stamp" priced - identical for everyone, they too should be mandated to be in the MSRP.

Dealers here charge an additional admin fee, plus a bunch of hooey like nitrogen and on and on that they present as "part of the price."  It means the pre-tax price of a base CrossTrek is actually very close to $30K.

[Triple Bob]

Yes, this car seems like a fine value.

Now that that's out of the way, there seems to be some misunderstandings around here regarding prices and how there should be stated and compared.

Either way, it's still very good value, as you have to add all of that on to any of it's competitors.

No, you don't.

The only things that any competitors will also add are taxes and mandatory fees. Freight, PDI, and fees are not the same for every car. For example, Subaru itself (not Subaru dealers) lists a $395 Administration fee. Other manufacturers do not list that fee. Freight and PDI are also not the same for every brand. Quoting only base MSRP before things like freight, PDI, and fees is just presenting incomplete information. Sort of like ignoring that an option is $1500 on one car and $1900 on another.

The only reason manufacturers highlight these base MSRP numbers is to further their own marketing. $24,999 just looks better to consumers than the real $27,000+. There is no inherent "correctness" to these base numbers. Why be complicit in letting car makers trick consumers into thinking the products are thousands less than what they really are?

The only price allowed should be the "all in" price including fees and taxes. If MSRPs are quoted though, everyone knows that taxes and fees are extra, so it's not being disingenuous to stick with MSRP.

I would add, complete MSRPs - as you say, MSRPs that include everything except taxes and mandatory fees. And, of course, quoting prices including taxes really only works if comparing prices in the same region (which does not work on a forum like this).

Oh I don't disagree at all, I just consider some of that additional amount on top of the MSRP as negotiable.  I know you can't negotiate all of it away but I've been pretty successful in negotiating some of it away in the past. 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I agree that pricing is becoming a convoluted game.  Subaru dealers here are among the worst for inflating MSRP prices, and even Subaru Canada is horrible.  $395 admin fee from the maker?  Great.  THAT should be in the MSRP.  Since freight and PDI are "postage stamp" priced - identical for everyone, they too should be mandated to be in the MSRP.

Dealers here charge an additional admin fee, plus a bunch of hooey like nitrogen and on and on that they present as "part of the price."  It means the pre-tax price of a base CrossTrek is actually very close to $30K.

Cars, mobile phones, cable bills, all just variations of three card monte designed to distract and confuse the purchaser.

[Dante]

I've been able to negotiate the MSRP, dealer amin fee, but never even tried to negotiate the freight. I take that as a given just the same as I do for the gov fees.
As for the PDI, it should be negotiable too, but I usually consider that as part of the dealer profit when I establish what I'm willing to pay for the car just like I do with admin fee.

All the manufacturer sites I've been onto lately show the all-in pricing. They do not include the eventual dealer admin fees which are dealer specific and negotiable.

To me the relevant price which I use in comparisons is MSRP+freight+PDI+Gov fees and now that manufacturer sites are complying with the rule, it's much easier to compare prices.

[ArticSteve]

I agree that pricing is becoming a convoluted game.  Subaru dealers here are among the worst for inflating MSRP prices, and even Subaru Canada is horrible.  $395 admin fee from the maker?  Great.  THAT should be in the MSRP.  Since freight and PDI are "postage stamp" priced - identical for everyone, they too should be mandated to be in the MSRP.

Dealers here charge an additional admin fee, plus a bunch of hooey like nitrogen and on and on that they present as "part of the price."  It means the pre-tax price of a base CrossTrek is actually very close to $30K.

^^^

Same here.  Subie dealers are low volume and they have decided universally to hold the line on discounts.   How else do they stay in business.   Interest rates are always on the higher end in relation to piers.

For once we get an honest review of the powertrain.  CRAP.  3000 rpm @ 110 kph. (minimum 401 speed)  out of a 5 speed manual ...  that's 2016 Maxima mpg using remote start.   

The red unit in the article looks pretty grovvy and would no doubt have an instant curb appeal to certain buyer types, but grind down on the final cost (with financing) together with it's substandard powertrain and me thinks FORGET ABOUT IT.     


 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

 

[Noto]

For once we get an honest review of the powertrain.  CRAP.  3000 rpm @ 110 kph. (minimum 401 speed)  out of a 5 speed manual ... 

So long as you understand that the CVT does not behave in such a manner, nor does it have the same fuel consumption, then we have no beef.

[tooscoops]

Yes, this car seems like a fine value.

Now that that's out of the way, there seems to be some misunderstandings around here regarding prices and how there should be stated and compared.

Either way, it's still very good value, as you have to add all of that on to any of it's competitors.

No, you don't.

The only things that any competitors will also add are taxes and mandatory fees. Freight, PDI, and fees are not the same for every car. For example, Subaru itself (not Subaru dealers) lists a $395 Administration fee. Other manufacturers do not list that fee. Freight and PDI are also not the same for every brand. Quoting only base MSRP before things like freight, PDI, and fees is just presenting incomplete information. Sort of like ignoring that an option is $1500 on one car and $1900 on another.

The only reason manufacturers highlight these base MSRP numbers is to further their own marketing. $24,999 just looks better to consumers than the real $27,000+. There is no inherent "correctness" to these base numbers. Why be complicit in letting car makers trick consumers into thinking the products are thousands less than what they really are?

The only price allowed should be the "all in" price including fees and taxes. If MSRPs are quoted though, everyone knows that taxes and fees are extra, so it's not being disingenuous to stick with MSRP.

I would add, complete MSRPs - as you say, MSRPs that include everything except taxes and mandatory fees. And, of course, quoting prices including taxes really only works if comparing prices in the same region (which does not work on a forum like this).

Oh I don't disagree at all, I just consider some of that additional amount on top of the MSRP as negotiable.  I know you can't negotiate all of it away but I've been pretty successful in negotiating some of it away in the past.

this is a huge fallacy in our business... that those additional parts are somehow more negotiable... if anything, they are less negotiable than the actual price.

if some dealer during negotiation gives you a discount of the freight to seal the deal... they have just discounted the car by an amount equal to freight... does NOT mean that the freight was not a standard thing, and that you somehow talked your way out of it...

freight, pdi, whatever is equal across the country (for better or worse). so the number that should be spoken about/advertised is the number with those included. the MSRP including options, freight, factory fees. the only things added would be license plates and taxes (which can change drastically depending on who/where you are).

then the things to take off will be whatever incentives are currently applicable, and what level of discount you can get from the dealer through negotiations.

[Triple Bob]

Yes, this car seems like a fine value.

Now that that's out of the way, there seems to be some misunderstandings around here regarding prices and how there should be stated and compared.

Either way, it's still very good value, as you have to add all of that on to any of it's competitors.

No, you don't.

The only things that any competitors will also add are taxes and mandatory fees. Freight, PDI, and fees are not the same for every car. For example, Subaru itself (not Subaru dealers) lists a $395 Administration fee. Other manufacturers do not list that fee. Freight and PDI are also not the same for every brand. Quoting only base MSRP before things like freight, PDI, and fees is just presenting incomplete information. Sort of like ignoring that an option is $1500 on one car and $1900 on another.

The only reason manufacturers highlight these base MSRP numbers is to further their own marketing. $24,999 just looks better to consumers than the real $27,000+. There is no inherent "correctness" to these base numbers. Why be complicit in letting car makers trick consumers into thinking the products are thousands less than what they really are?

The only price allowed should be the "all in" price including fees and taxes. If MSRPs are quoted though, everyone knows that taxes and fees are extra, so it's not being disingenuous to stick with MSRP.

I would add, complete MSRPs - as you say, MSRPs that include everything except taxes and mandatory fees. And, of course, quoting prices including taxes really only works if comparing prices in the same region (which does not work on a forum like this).

Oh I don't disagree at all, I just consider some of that additional amount on top of the MSRP as negotiable.  I know you can't negotiate all of it away but I've been pretty successful in negotiating some of it away in the past.

this is a huge fallacy in our business... that those additional parts are somehow more negotiable... if anything, they are less negotiable than the actual price.

if some dealer during negotiation gives you a discount of the freight to seal the deal... they have just discounted the car by an amount equal to freight... does NOT mean that the freight was not a standard thing, and that you somehow talked your way out of it...

freight, pdi, whatever is equal across the country (for better or worse). so the number that should be spoken about/advertised is the number with those included. the MSRP including options, freight, factory fees. the only things added would be license plates and taxes (which can change drastically depending on who/where you are).

then the things to take off will be whatever incentives are currently applicable, and what level of discount you can get from the dealer through negotiations.

That's fine, I didn't specify freight.  I honestly don't car which line it comes off.

[tooscoops]

oh i don't mean offense or anything... but it is such a common thing to hear... the same logic behind people who buy used cars "so they don't pay freight"... it's just not true.

and to those who think msrp is supposed to be pre-freight and such... just look at a window sticker... at the end of the options list, it will add ac tax, freight, etc and say "total price".... THAT is the msrp. anything above that is dealer added fees(or in some circumstances price increases), anything less is discount and/or incentive. dealers or manufacturers who advertise any number different than that as msrp are just wrong... that is where the OMVICs and such of the world need to crack down. gets so confusing.

[84im]

"the same logic behind people who buy used cars "so they don't pay freight"... it's just not true."

Tooscoops, can you explain this for me?

[tooscoops]

sure thing...

people always say that on a used vehicle they "don't pay freight"... well, sure, you don't pay a line item of freight. but used car pricing is based off equivalent new car pricing which does include it.

as an example, lets look at the 2017 elantra i just took in. new pricing is around 17900(including freight) plus hst, financed at .9% for 84 months... for me to sell it on my lot, i am going to have to compete with that, so at 4.99%, 15500 will make it a touch less on a 7 year term and a cash buyer will get a great deal.

if you *really* weren't paying freight on a used car, the number the used dealer would be comparing it with would be 17900 - 1823 (freight and fees) so = 16077 or so... so to do the same math, i would then have to sell it around 13500 on the used lot to make it a good buy *if you were ACTUALLY saving freight and depreciation*... just not the case.

used car's pricing is based off actual transaction prices on new, not msrp, not freight-less numbers, not out of thin air...

not sure if that clarifies anything!!

[dirtyjeffer]

as an example, lets look at the 2017 elantra i just took in. new pricing is around 17900(including freight) plus hst, financed at .9% for 84 months... for me to sell it on my lot, i am going to have to compete with that, so at 4.99%, 15500 will make it a touch less on a 7 year term and a cash buyer will get a great deal.

someone traded in a car that is only several months old?

not a very smart move.

[tooscoops]

nope... not smart at all. see things like that all the time actually. most of the time, the numbers don't work or they have already crap credit (hard to believe with such sharp financial decisions as this)...

does work out though in some cases... by the way, the numbers above are "based" on a true story, so don't come to buy that Elantra from me for that price!... turned out to be a higher trim level, so the numbers are different in real life, but the idea is the same.