Author Topic: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover  (Read 17553 times)

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2015, 12:36:12 am »
I like the new RAV 4, but I wish they still offered the V6 engine.  I'd take the V6 over the hybrid any day.

Too bad the take rate was so low - the RAV with the V-6 was a sweet machine.

Not that the Rav4 hasn't always been the perfect vehicle for a LOT of people.

I guess it was a sweet machine in a very limited sense - straight line acceleration over longer distances or at higher speeds.  In fact, the relatively large transverse-mounted V6 caused handling problems.  The even worse weight balance degraded the AWD capability compared to the 4cyl version.

And then the high gearing which benefited highway mileage, meant that in a 0-65kph stop-light race against the unheralded V6 Suzuki Grand Vitara, the Grand Vitara was faster than the V6 Rav4 due to its off-road biased lower gearing.  Surprise.  Been there, done that.

With full-time awd, the Suzuki was superior off-road and in bad conditions on highways.  Not to mention the snappy and predictable handling resulting from a perfect weight distribution as a result of mounting the engine longitudinally.  Yup, the V6 Rav4 could eventually drop the Grand Vitara, but the Vitara was clearly better in more performance departments.  Oh, and did I mention the Vitara has a low range?

« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 01:07:08 am by X-Traction »
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Offline X-Traction

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2015, 01:01:10 am »
I can't say about this newest hybrid, but I've driven a Gen 2 Highlander Hybrid and was completely underwhelmed by the AWD system.  We often take my HL and my friend's HL-H, and I can sail up steep un-plowed roads and his HL struggles - sometimes not making it up.

The culprit was the TCS - no wheelspin allowed at all.  I understand that the configuration of the electric motor for the rear drive isn't suited to spinning do the TRACS clamps down immediately.

So what happened was the fronts would lose traction and when it sent the power rearward, the rears would also spin, and then the TRACS would just shut it all down flat.  The first time I was driving it and it happened I thought something terrible had gone wrong.

In the city it seems to work well enough - and the city driving economy of the HL is exceptional.  I found on the highway the hybrid returned pretty much identical economy to my non-hybrid.  Seems that the real advantages were in all urban operation.

Interesting info. 

Here's more than anyone might want to know about Toyota's Hybrid Synergy Drive, including mileage comparisons for the Highlander Hybrid and the regular Highlander.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

"Typical fuel economy for the Highlander Hybrid rates between 27 and 31 mpg (8.7–7.6 l/100 km). A conventional Highlander is rated by the EPA with 19 city, 25 highway mpg (12.4 and 9.4 l/100 km respectively)."

We often drive up snowed-in logging roads from sea level.  This typically means going from gravel into snow, through the freezing point up into increasingly deep snow.  It's a perfect test of various vehicles' traction.

Twice I've experienced the Escape Hybrid balking in deep snow as you describe the Highlander Hybrid doing.  The first time it was operating in just electric drive.  Nice and quiet, but it just slowed to a stop. No response to flooring it.  I decided that since you can't put current through an electric motor that's not rotating without damaging the windings, this was a protection sytem built into the electric system rather than traction control intervening.  But why wouldn't the gas engine start?

So the next time in this situation I forced the engine to run by turning on the air conditioning in max mode.  Again, something backed off the throttle until I came to a stop.  I could floor it and nothing would happen.  This time I'd been climbing a steep road for at least half an hour.  It meant the awd was active all that time, and I thought it was possible the electronic clutch that activates the rear axle drive was hot and just shut off.  I took several runs at the steeper deeper grade, with the same result every time.

The Escape Hybrid also has a button to shut off the traction control.  Of course it can't completely shut TC off because the electric motor has to be protected against overspinning.  Next time I'll try shutting off the TC and see what happens.  Or, let it sit for a while in case the problem is that something is overheating.

But I have to say, the times this happened the Escape Hybrid had already gotten higher and through deeper snow than the other vehicles present.   And turned around without getting stuck, which is the bonus test.

Although having broken tire tracks through deep snow can make subsequent attempts easier, in some snow conditions the first attempt has the best traction.  This is because the first attempt breaks up the structure of the snow granules, turning the snow into a sort of dry mush that gives very little traction.  So every time you take a run at it, you get less far.

I'll be extremely curious to see how the Rav4 Hybrid behaves in such conditions.

Offline Neromanceres

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #22 on: November 08, 2015, 09:21:39 am »
Interesting and a good move by Toyota.   I think this will find a good sized market.   I look forward to reading the test drives.  Though I think the Rav 4 itself seems dated already.

As for the powertrain from the Prius.  They might be referring to the next generation Prius AWD system that will be available in Japan (but not North America)?

As for comparing fuel economy numbers to the old Escape Hybrid that is apples and oranges as the Rav 4 numbers shown here will be under the new transport Canada 5 cycle test.  And the Escape Hybrid under the old system.

For those that are interested a very long and technical read on how hybrid systems from some major auto makers are starting to converge on similar approaches.

http://gm-volt.com/2015/11/06/125426/

Offline johngenx

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2015, 09:51:28 am »

"Typical fuel economy for the Highlander Hybrid rates between 27 and 31 mpg (8.7–7.6 l/100 km). A conventional Highlander is rated by the EPA with 19 city, 25 highway mpg (12.4 and 9.4 l/100 km respectively)."

The HL-H usually gets better economy in city driving.  We were able to track economy between the two on the highway very closely as we filled at the same places, drove the same speed, etc.  Staying around the speed limit, both models achieve about 9.0L/100km.  Drive faster and the increase in consumption is the same - we did one trip where the slowest we drove was 125 and both had roof boxes on and we both saw well into the 12s.

In the city, my consumption rises to 11 (or up to 14 if I put my foot in it a lot) and the Hybrid drops to in the 8s.


Offline EV Dan

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #24 on: November 08, 2015, 04:17:46 pm »
Below is US pricing:
2016 RAV4 Pricing
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4430    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LE    $24,350
4440    RAV4    2WD    A/T    XLE    $26,270
4470    RAV4    2WD    A/T    SE    $29,265
4450    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LTD    $31,510
4432    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LE    $25,750
4442    RAV4    AWD    A/T    XLE    $27,670
4472    RAV4    AWD    A/T    SE    $30,665
4452    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LTD    $32,910
Hybrid
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4444    RAV4    AWD    CVT    XLE    $28,370
4454    RAV4    AWD    CVT    LTD    $33,610
All prices listed above exclude the Delivery, Processing, and Handling (DPH) fee. Fleet models excluded.

As you can see, the XLE Hybrid is less than $1000 more than a comparably equipped XLE AWD. We're getting screwed big time on the hybrid!  >:(

Is it assembled in Japan?
« Last Edit: November 08, 2015, 04:21:28 pm by EV Dan »
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Offline X-Traction

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #25 on: November 08, 2015, 04:56:20 pm »
As for comparing fuel economy numbers to the old Escape Hybrid that is apples and oranges as the Rav 4 numbers shown here will be under the new transport Canada 5 cycle test.  And the Escape Hybrid under the old system.
I tried to word my comments to cover this angle.  For instance, I questioned what real world mileage the Rav4 Hybrid will get.  So far we have only the test numbers for it. 

It doesn't matter whether old or new test numbers were used for the Escape Hybrid.  That's because the Escape Hybrid in the real world at least equaled its test numbers, and when I say my Hybrid gets 7l/100km or 40mpg, that's a real world number.

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #26 on: November 08, 2015, 04:59:23 pm »

"Typical fuel economy for the Highlander Hybrid rates between 27 and 31 mpg (8.7–7.6 l/100 km). A conventional Highlander is rated by the EPA with 19 city, 25 highway mpg (12.4 and 9.4 l/100 km respectively)."

The HL-H usually gets better economy in city driving.  We were able to track economy between the two on the highway very closely as we filled at the same places, drove the same speed, etc.  Staying around the speed limit, both models achieve about 9.0L/100km.  Drive faster and the increase in consumption is the same - we did one trip where the slowest we drove was 125 and both had roof boxes on and we both saw well into the 12s.

In the city, my consumption rises to 11 (or up to 14 if I put my foot in it a lot) and the Hybrid drops to in the 8s.

I'm not questioning your observations, but there must be more to it.

A hybrid has several mileage advantages over an equivalent non-hybrid for highway driving. It's recognized that regenerative braking is reponsible for a hybrid's better mileage, and obviously regenerative braking doesn't come into play for most highway driving.  Nor does the engine stop/start.  But hybrids have several other tricks that help highway mileage.  The CVT means they're always in an ideal gear, and the Atkinson cycle engine means better mileage also.  Some hybrids get by with a smaller ICE thanks to boost on demand from the electrical system.  Most have LRR tires, though non-hybrids can use them also.  Same for higher tire pressure.

So a Highlander Hybrid should get noticably better highway mileage than an equivalent non-hybrid.  Did your two vehicles have similar tires at the same pressure?  Do they both have the same size engine?  I imagine you were using the same gas.  Was one following the other?  A following vehicle can lose mileage from continual throttle adjustments to maintain a given distance to the lead vehicle, but a following vehicle can also benefit from drafting.  And driving style matters.  Some people are constantly alternating between the throttle and brake, while others drive very smoothly.  This can result in a big difference in mileage, even though the vehicles may be traveling together.

Offline X-Traction

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #27 on: November 08, 2015, 05:16:58 pm »
Below is US pricing:
2016 RAV4 Pricing
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4430    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LE    $24,350
4440    RAV4    2WD    A/T    XLE    $26,270
4470    RAV4    2WD    A/T    SE    $29,265
4450    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LTD    $31,510
4432    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LE    $25,750
4442    RAV4    AWD    A/T    XLE    $27,670
4472    RAV4    AWD    A/T    SE    $30,665
4452    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LTD    $32,910
Hybrid
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4444    RAV4    AWD    CVT    XLE    $28,370
4454    RAV4    AWD    CVT    LTD    $33,610
All prices listed above exclude the Delivery, Processing, and Handling (DPH) fee. Fleet models excluded.

As you can see, the XLE Hybrid is less than $1000 more than a comparably equipped XLE AWD. We're getting screwed big time on the hybrid!  >:(

Is it assembled in Japan?

It's hard to find information on where the Rav4 Hybrid will be built.  All I could find was on an Australian site:
"The RAV4 Hybrid will be built in Ontario, Canada and in Japan in right-hand drive,"

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2015/small-4x4/toyota/rav4/new-york-motor-show-toyota-debuts-rav4-hybrid-50337

 The Toyota Canada site still does not list the Rav4 Hybrid, though the US pricing suggests the cost will be in the same ballpark as Escape Hybrids were.

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #28 on: November 08, 2015, 05:56:20 pm »
Below is US pricing:
2016 RAV4 Pricing
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4430    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LE    $24,350
4440    RAV4    2WD    A/T    XLE    $26,270
4470    RAV4    2WD    A/T    SE    $29,265
4450    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LTD    $31,510
4432    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LE    $25,750
4442    RAV4    AWD    A/T    XLE    $27,670
4472    RAV4    AWD    A/T    SE    $30,665
4452    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LTD    $32,910
Hybrid
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4444    RAV4    AWD    CVT    XLE    $28,370
4454    RAV4    AWD    CVT    LTD    $33,610
All prices listed above exclude the Delivery, Processing, and Handling (DPH) fee. Fleet models excluded.

As you can see, the XLE Hybrid is less than $1000 more than a comparably equipped XLE AWD. We're getting screwed big time on the hybrid!  >:(

Is it assembled in Japan?

It's hard to find information on where the Rav4 Hybrid will be built.  All I could find was on an Australian site:
"The RAV4 Hybrid will be built in Ontario, Canada and in Japan in right-hand drive,"

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2015/small-4x4/toyota/rav4/new-york-motor-show-toyota-debuts-rav4-hybrid-50337

 The Toyota Canada site still does not list the Rav4 Hybrid, though the US pricing suggests the cost will be in the same ballpark as Escape Hybrids were.

Weak CAD is likely why it's overpriced, if in fact imported from Japan.
Cambridge ON plant currently makes regular Ravs, recently began making RH450H and used to make Rav4EV. It seems logical that they should make Rav4 hybrid here. Cheaper for us to buy and a whole lot cheaper for the US to import it from here.

http://www.thestar.com/autos/2015/04/01/new-york-toyota-debuts-are-significant.html

Offline johngenx

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #29 on: November 08, 2015, 06:16:09 pm »

A hybrid has several mileage advantages over an equivalent non-hybrid for highway driving.

If you look at the fuel economy ratings for the hybrid and non-hybrid, they're actually not that far off from each other in terms of the highway numbers.  High 8's vs mid 9s.  The hybrid shines in city driving and combined numbers thanks to that significant city driving advantage.

We also are comparing apples and oranges a bit too.  My Gen 1 Highlander is smaller and lighter and has a smaller engine than the Gen 2 Highlander Hybrid we frequently travel with.

The main observation that comes from this is that the hybrid advantage is narrow in all highway driving circumstances - and widens quickly the more time is spent in the city.  The fact that his Highlander records all city consumption about 1L/100km greater than our Corolla is amazing - a full sized SUV!  That fact alone is nothing short of remarkable.

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #30 on: November 08, 2015, 07:00:08 pm »
Below is US pricing:
2016 RAV4 Pricing
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4430    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LE    $24,350
4440    RAV4    2WD    A/T    XLE    $26,270
4470    RAV4    2WD    A/T    SE    $29,265
4450    RAV4    2WD    A/T    LTD    $31,510
4432    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LE    $25,750
4442    RAV4    AWD    A/T    XLE    $27,670
4472    RAV4    AWD    A/T    SE    $30,665
4452    RAV4    AWD    A/T    LTD    $32,910
Hybrid
Model #    Model    Drive    Transmission    Grade    MSRP
4444    RAV4    AWD    CVT    XLE    $28,370
4454    RAV4    AWD    CVT    LTD    $33,610
All prices listed above exclude the Delivery, Processing, and Handling (DPH) fee. Fleet models excluded.

As you can see, the XLE Hybrid is less than $1000 more than a comparably equipped XLE AWD. We're getting screwed big time on the hybrid!  >:(

Is it assembled in Japan?

It's hard to find information on where the Rav4 Hybrid will be built.  All I could find was on an Australian site:
"The RAV4 Hybrid will be built in Ontario, Canada and in Japan in right-hand drive,"

http://www.motoring.com.au/news/2015/small-4x4/toyota/rav4/new-york-motor-show-toyota-debuts-rav4-hybrid-50337

 The Toyota Canada site still does not list the Rav4 Hybrid, though the US pricing suggests the cost will be in the same ballpark as Escape Hybrids were.
From the Toyota.ca http://www.toyota.ca/toyota/en/vehicles/rav4-hybrid/overview

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #31 on: November 08, 2015, 08:38:17 pm »
Weak CAD is likely why it's overpriced, if in fact imported from Japan.
Cambridge ON plant currently makes regular Ravs, recently began making RH450H and used to make Rav4EV. It seems logical that they should make Rav4 hybrid here. Cheaper for us to buy and a whole lot cheaper for the US to import it from here.


Like the Camry, Avalon and Lexus ES Hybrid,  the RAV'S electric motors, inverter, PSD, are made in Japan and installed in North America along with most electronic and electrical parts.

Offline Noto

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2015, 11:02:38 am »
The mileage numbers are unimpressive.  Perhaps real-world reports will be better.  The Escape Hybrid, using an older version of this hybrid technology, with a less streamlined body, and lacking the ability to regenerate braking forces from the rear wheels, does better than this in real-world reports. 
I say this with the utmost respect to you - please note that.

I know that you love your Escape Hybrid and you are always quick to report your experiences in comparison to every hybrid article.  I do the same W.R.T. the hybrids I'm accustomed to driving, including the RX400h currently parked about 100 feet from my desk.

With that in mind, I, too, have extensive experience with the Escape Hybrid.  I drove for my university campus's safety program, which took students home when class was late and they didn't want to walk alone in the dark.  We drove rain, shine, or blizzard.  Suffice it to say that I found the Escape Hybrid utterly useless in the winter.

...now, that Escape had OEM tires only, which were LRR and certainly not proper dedicated winters.

I point this out because I don't trust any of the forum-member 'tests' I hear about here.  What tires were used in these "hill" tests?  Were they new?  What level of wear?  Were they WS60s or WS70s, or even better, WS80s?

I've never, ever been stuck in the snow (and I've driven the RX through some nasty sh~t).  My father vehemently was against buying winter tires for the first 6 years of ownership of the RX, and only three years ago did he agree to get Yokohama iG51vs.  They are squishy, and honestly, not the best tire, but mon dieu do they transform the RX into a proper winter driver.  Is it a Forester with WS70s in the snow?  No.  But neither is the Corolla, nor is any version of pretty much any competing CUV out there.  The Outlander with S-AWC, perhaps.  The Santa Fe does very well, too.  As good as a Subaru?  Nope.  Does it matter?  Nope.

The only valid question is:
Does the eAWD in the Rav4 Hybrid (similar setup as in the RX400h/450h/NX300h <-- closer to this one) offer better slippery-condition performance than the FWD setup?  The answer is a resounding "yes."  On that basis, and on that basis alone, the rest of these questions are completely moot.  Are there better AWD systems out there?  Absolutely!  But the Rav4 Hybrid will not be purchased for offroading, akin to the Jeep Grand Cherokee or Wrangler or Renegade.  Sheesh, get a grip!  ;D

Here's what I can tell you about buying a Toyota hybrid with NiMH batteries:
The system is fantastic for about 7 years with no input.  After 7-8 years, the battery capacity does diminish.  Does the car still work?  Yes, though at best I'm able to get about 23.2mpg now (it is colder, mind you), compared to ~31mpg in the Corolla.  268hp (well, what once was) SUV compared to 132hp (well, what once was ;D) compact sedan is not exactly fair, but when 'new' (to us), the RX was capable of mid-high 30s (mpg) with little to no effort in all types of city driving.  Highway was never really better than 27mpg.

In the US, there are centres that will recondition your battery to 95% of new capacity.  That'd be swell if I could find one.

In any event, I'd likely recommend purchasing one of these systems, but caution about fuel economy down the road.  It's not worse than the RX350 of the same model year, but the fuel economy gains do go away after a while unless the battery can be reconditioned or replaced.  This is from my example, and YMMV, of course.

What I do find interesting about the Rav4 Hybrid is the 'tach':


No numbers whatsoever.  Likely makes sense based on the combined output difficulties, but mostly because folks just don't care what engine speed is.

I still think $41,000 for the top dawg is pricey, but clearly it's an issue of our dollar and not Toyota overpricing this thing.

Offline redman

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2015, 02:37:06 pm »
  ^^
For some odd reason all of a sudden I feel like having a coffee. Maybe that dash is sponsored by Starbucks or even Tetley  :P
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Offline johngenx

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2015, 09:20:11 pm »

I point this out because I don't trust any of the forum-member 'tests' I hear about here.  What tires were used in these "hill" tests?  Were they new?  What level of wear?  Were they WS60s or WS70s, or even better, WS80s?

I've never, ever been stuck in the snow (and I've driven the RX through some nasty sh~t).  My father vehemently was against buying winter tires for the first 6 years of ownership of the RX, and only three years ago did he agree to get Yokohama iG51vs.  They are squishy, and honestly, not the best tire, but mon dieu do they transform the RX into a proper winter driver.  Is it a Forester with WS70s in the snow?  No.  But neither is the Corolla, nor is any version of pretty much any competing CUV out there.  The Outlander with S-AWC, perhaps.  The Santa Fe does very well, too.  As good as a Subaru?  Nope.  Does it matter?  Nope.

For the vast majority of owners, they won't notice the AWD system at all - they'll just know that it works more than well enough for the driving that they do.  This is true not only of the Hybrid models, but the various slip/grip AWD systems on the market.  There's a relatively small number of us that very purposely drive into snow storms and then onto the most remote and poorly maintained roads in those storms - and that is where the Subaru (and older full time Toyota AWD, Jeep 4x4, etc, etc) systems really show how much better they work - given proper tires, of course.

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #35 on: November 09, 2015, 09:51:06 pm »
  ^^
For some odd reason all of a sudden I feel like having a coffee. Maybe that dash is sponsored by Starbucks or even Tetley  :P

So true  :rofl:
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Offline X-Traction

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2015, 06:55:18 pm »
The mileage numbers are unimpressive.  Perhaps real-world reports will be better.  The Escape Hybrid, using an older version of this hybrid technology, with a less streamlined body, and lacking the ability to regenerate braking forces from the rear wheels, does better than this in real-world reports. 
I say this with the utmost respect to you - please note that.
I, too, have extensive experience with the Escape Hybrid.  I drove for my university campus's safety program, which took students home when class was late and they didn't want to walk alone in the dark.  We drove rain, shine, or blizzard.  Suffice it to say that I found the Escape Hybrid utterly useless in the winter.

...now, that Escape had OEM tires only, which were LRR and certainly not proper dedicated winters.

I point this out because I don't trust any of the forum-member 'tests' I hear about here.  What tires were used in these "hill" tests?  Were they new?  What level of wear?  Were they WS60s or WS70s, or even better, WS80s?

Now and then I see this criticism that Escapes are no good in snow. The odd thing is that these comments never mention if the Escape in question has the AWD option.  About half of them don't.

Note that a fwd Escape Hybrid would have worse traction in snow than a non-hybrid, because the weight of the battery pack under the cargo area takes weight off the front driving wheels.  In the awd Escape Hybrid, the weight of the battery pack actually gives better traction by making it less nose-heavy than the non-hybrid awd Escape.  My own experience is that there's nothing similar that's better in deep snow or on ice than the Grand Vitara.  And the Escape Hybrid is at least 80% as capable.  Maybe 90%.

"The intelligent four-wheel drive system made me wonder if I was actually seeing snow on the ground on a winter day in Chicago. (The answer was, "yes.") It was stellar on slick pavement and gravel."
http://www.greencarreports.com/review/1018884_ford-escape-hybrid-limited-4wd-review-and-test-drive

Tires?  A good point.  My Escape has Hercules Avalanche X-Treme snow tires.  Chinese, I believe.  (Don't blame me, the dealer I bought the thing from put them on.)  My impression is that they're about 80-90% as good as the Blizzak DMZ's on the Grand Vitara.

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I've never, ever been stuck in the snow (and I've driven the RX through some nasty sh~t).  My father vehemently was against buying winter tires for the first 6 years of ownership of the RX, and only three years ago did he agree to get Yokohama iG51vs.  They are squishy, and honestly, not the best tire, but mon dieu do they transform the RX into a proper winter driver.  Is it a Forester with WS70s in the snow?  No.  But neither is the Corolla, nor is any version of pretty much any competing CUV out there.  The Outlander with S-AWC, perhaps.  The Santa Fe does very well, too.  As good as a Subaru?  Nope.  Does it matter?  Nope.

The only valid question is:
Does the eAWD in the Rav4 Hybrid (similar setup as in the RX400h/450h/NX300h <-- closer to this one) offer better slippery-condition performance than the FWD setup?  The answer is a resounding "yes."  On that basis, and on that basis alone, the rest of these questions are completely moot.  Are there better AWD systems out there?  Absolutely!  But the Rav4 Hybrid will not be purchased for offroading, akin to the Jeep Grand Cherokee or Wrangler or Renegade.

It sounds like you live in a fairly level part of the country.

To start with, I'll have to make clearer why "offroad" capability matters to us.  Note that "offroad" doesn't literally mean off the roads. Relatively speaking, you wouldn't get 5 feet off BC's roads with a highway vehicle.  BC probably has more km's of logging roads than highways.  Most of those roads are totally unmaintained, steep, narrow and lack any sort of safety measures.  Worse, most of them have had drainage ditches dug across them.  We share this milieu with the true off-roaders and hunters.  The true off-roaders have modified jeeps etc.  The hunters have 4wd pickups.  We also need our vehicles to be reasonably efficient highway and urban cars.  Typical for our peers is the mix of vehicles used recently on a group trip:  Xterra, Grand Cherokee, CRV, Tucson, and (previous generations) X-Trail, CRV, Forester, Escape, and Rav4.

We drive the backroads to access mountain trails and other high country that lacks trails.  Getting as far out/up the roads as reasonably possible without damage worse than scratches, matters to us.  This could be hundreds of km from pavement, or steep climbs up 4000' vertical or more.  Some of these places feel like the edge of the planet; you wouldn't want to have a breakdown or get really stuck.

Some of these places are heavily used.  I'd rather not spend a big part of a recreational day clumping up and down a road in ski boots carrying skis, and thus running out of time to reach a high country destination.  I'd also rather avoid mounting and removing tire chains.  Better to have a vehicle that can consistently get up these roads without fuss, winter or summer.  (When I have space, I give rides to the people walking.)  Vehicles that do well in these conditions generally also do well on winter highways such as the Coquihalla ("Highway Thru Hell").

What we do is different from people in Alberta who use similar vehicles for similar activities.  Almost without exception, Albertans use roads that are maintained to the trailhead parking lots or where they start into the backcountry.  And they usually don't have to drive through the slippery conditions of the freezing point zone, which we have to do all winter.

Because the winter conditions rapidly get tougher (snow is deeper) as one gains elevation, it's like a tractor pull contest where the trailer thing progressively digs in.  Over the years and hundreds of outings, it gets really obvious which vehicles are better.  The much-vaunted Subaru wagons do ok in winter, but clearly not as good as things like the Grand Vitara.  And in summer, the Subaru wagons and sedans lack clearance needed to get through washouts, ditches etc.

Fwd, with snow tires and/or chains, can do well.  But anything fwd can do with snow tires and/or chains, an awd with snow tires and/or chains can do better.  That's why awd and fwd rally cars have separate classifications.

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Here's what I can tell you about buying a Toyota hybrid with NiMH batteries:
The system is fantastic for about 7 years with no input.  After 7-8 years, the battery capacity does diminish.  Does the car still work?  Yes, though at best I'm able to get about 23.2mpg now (it is colder, mind you), compared to ~31mpg in the Corolla.  268hp (well, what once was) SUV compared to 132hp (well, what once was ;D) compact sedan is not exactly fair, but when 'new' (to us), the RX was capable of mid-high 30s (mpg) with little to no effort in all types of city driving.  Highway was never really better than 27mpg.

Fuelly rates the RX400H at 28mpg.  So you did well at first.  30mpg-23.2mpg = 27% loss.  A hybrid's mileage improvement over an equivalent non-hybrid is about 40% due to regenerative braking, which is what the battery is used for.  If the battery performance degrades 50%, then the mileage penalty would be (50% of 40%) .5 x .4 = 20%.  If you were getting 30mpg originally, a 50% battery capacity loss still wouldn't entirely account for your mileage loss.  So either your RX400H's battery is one of the very rare cases of hybrid battery failure, or there is something else wrong.  A simple test is whether it will still operate in ev mode.  Or after driving for a while, put your hand on the battery and see if it's hot.

There is plenty of evidence of hybrid batteries lasting 200,000, 300,000 and more miles with little or no loss of capacity.  My Escape is now 6 years old and shows no loss of mileage.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/1078138_toyota-hybrid-battery-replacement-cost-guide

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In the US, there are centres that will recondition your battery to 95% of new capacity.  That'd be swell if I could find one.

You know you can get these batteries from wreckers.  You stand almost no chance of getting a bad one, and supply outstrips demand such that they're fairly cheap.  Supply is helped by the fact the Highlander Hybrid apparently used the same battery.

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #37 on: November 10, 2015, 07:04:43 pm »

I point this out because I don't trust any of the forum-member 'tests' I hear about here.  What tires were used in these "hill" tests?  Were they new?  What level of wear?  Were they WS60s or WS70s, or even better, WS80s?

I've never, ever been stuck in the snow (and I've driven the RX through some nasty sh~t).  My father vehemently was against buying winter tires for the first 6 years of ownership of the RX, and only three years ago did he agree to get Yokohama iG51vs.  They are squishy, and honestly, not the best tire, but mon dieu do they transform the RX into a proper winter driver.  Is it a Forester with WS70s in the snow?  No.  But neither is the Corolla, nor is any version of pretty much any competing CUV out there.  The Outlander with S-AWC, perhaps.  The Santa Fe does very well, too.  As good as a Subaru?  Nope.  Does it matter?  Nope.

For the vast majority of owners, they won't notice the AWD system at all - they'll just know that it works more than well enough for the driving that they do.  This is true not only of the Hybrid models, but the various slip/grip AWD systems on the market.  There's a relatively small number of us that very purposely drive into snow storms and then onto the most remote and poorly maintained roads in those storms - and that is where the Subaru (and older full time Toyota AWD, Jeep 4x4, etc, etc) systems really show how much better they work - given proper tires, of course.

I might add that some slip&grip systems, such as Ford used on the Escape, monitor sensors to detect conditions likely to result in loss of traction, and engage the rear wheels before drive wheel spin is detected.  Sort of an enhanced slip&grip.  Makes sense, and it works seamlessly and well.

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #38 on: November 10, 2015, 07:36:35 pm »
My Escape has Hercules Avalanche X-Treme snow tires.

What pressure do you run at , to give you a smooth bump free ride  :rofl2:  :rofl:

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Re: Toyota adds hybrid option to RAV4 crossover
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2015, 12:10:18 am »
My Escape has Hercules Avalanche X-Treme snow tires.

What pressure do you run at , to give you a smooth bump free ride  :rofl2:  :rofl:

 :rofl:
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