Author Topic: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners  (Read 24919 times)

Offline rrocket

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #40 on: November 10, 2015, 11:11:39 pm »
This thread is painful for me.  I dislike GM and VW.  So no matter which answer I give...it's hurts me.   :rofl2:
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #41 on: November 10, 2015, 11:29:53 pm »

No, GM sat down at supply meetings knowing the parts were defective and didn't do anything about them.  GM knew that it was a defective design, did not have the design changed via the supplier, and is culpable in the matter.

From Wikipedia: "Unintended ignition switch shut-off happened because the "switch detent plunger", designed to provide enough torque to prevent the ignition from accidentally turning off, did not supply enough torque. General Motors was aware of this potential problem, and held meetings about it, as early as 2005."

"The defect was not disclosed by GM nor was it discovered by government regulators or transportation safety agencies."

Yeah, a long time after the parts were designed and had been installed. How many accidents had been attributed at that point? One? Two? None?

And the problem doesn't happen if weight isn't applied to the key in the ignition.
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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #42 on: November 10, 2015, 11:34:10 pm »
The list of affected GM NA cars. Earliest ones are from 1999.

Worldwide they recalled 30M cars and paid compensation for 124 deaths.

That is a very small failure rate.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 11:37:20 pm by Sir Osis of Liver »

Offline rrocket

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #43 on: November 10, 2015, 11:41:46 pm »


That is a very small failure rate.

Unless it was a loved one.

No deaths from the VW debacle as far as I know though. 

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #44 on: November 10, 2015, 11:46:30 pm »
From the report into why the switch wasn't fixed:

Valukas notes that it wasn't fixed because of a fundamental problem: "A critical factor in GM personnel's delay in fixing the switch was their failure to understand, quite simply, how the car was built."

The missing piece of understanding: When the switch moves out of the "run position," it kills the engine, cuts power assist to steering and brakes and ususally disables airbags.

The [Anton Valukas,the former U.S. attorney hired by the automaker to probe how GM failed to fix a serious flaw in ignition switch] Valukas report says that even though GM looked into the switch failures, it didn't connect them to airbag failures because of, "at the most fundamental level, the failure by investigators to understand how GM engineers had designed their own vehicle."

And once the problem became more obvious, nobody took change and made it right:

"Although everyone had responsibility to fix the problem, nobody took responsibility . It was an example of what one top executive describes as the 'GM nod,' when everyone nods in agreement to a proposed plan of action, but then leaves the room and does nothing."


The whole report:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/228310223/GM-s-Valukas-Switch-Recall-Report

Offline rrocket

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #45 on: November 10, 2015, 11:50:39 pm »
"A critical factor in GM personnel's delay in fixing the switch was their failure to understand, quite simply, how the car was built."



In a nutshell, that explains why GM sucks.   :rofl2:

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #46 on: November 10, 2015, 11:52:22 pm »
"A critical factor in GM personnel's delay in fixing the switch was their failure to understand, quite simply, how the car was built."



In a nutshell, that explains why GM sucks.   :rofl2:

Big corporations pick up nasty traits over time. GM certainly earned the heavy bureaucracy reputation for a reason.

Offline mixmanmash

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2015, 12:18:32 am »
A person could spend hours listing suits in the US on pretty much anything.

But the issue with Subaru was only identified after the cars were in production. Allegations aside, it is very unlikely that Subaru decided in the design phase to go with a design with a potentially high failure rate. They would have known as well as anyone the shitstorm that would follow.

VW set out in the design phase to deliberately cheat the system. The intent is very much different, and very relevant to regulators.



But Subaru knew VERY early on they were failure prone.  And they kept the same design for the following years while at the same time doing nothing for owners when they failed.

That's just as bad IMO.  Actually, it's worse because people were out more $$$ out of pocket than with the VW BS.
It's not as bad. Subaru was stonewalling after a problem showed up. VW deliberately set out to deceive regulators. Intent is important.

I disagree totally.  A bad Subaru headgasket will cost me $2500.  What VW did would cost me nothing out of pocket..and I could continue to drive my TDI worry free.

Huge difference to the consumer.
Said by the same guy who blamed the incident where a 15 year old girl was slammed to the floor by an officer on the said 15 year old...

Clearly, Rob, your opinion on societal matters differ from the norm.

Opinion of societal matters like being on time for a lunch date?  Or something different?

And my name isn't Rob.

And I stand by my comment.  If I own a TDI, it costs me nothing, zero, zilch to keep driving it.  I am out of pocket nothing (except my time to bring it in for the fix).  Plus I'll get a VW Bribe Visa card ($500) out of it.  Whereas with the Subaru, I'm out at least $2500.  And maybe more when it happens again a few years down the road.  Because there's no fix.

Ask anyone of this board and I think they'd side with me.  Would you rather own a car that has a recall campaign and get things fixed (VW)...or be left out to dry to the tune of thousands of dollars with a know issue (Subaru or GM with their headgaskets issue)?  I am looking at this from a consumer's point of view.
I agree.  As a consumer, I would care more about the issue that affects me and my pocketbook or safety.

At the same time, I do agree that the regulators are going to clamp down hard on VW.  Regulators / government bodies don't like to be cheated at all.  I hope VW has got a big supply of Vaseline because they are going to need it or the pain is going to be worse.

Offline Guy

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2015, 08:22:49 am »
I watch you guys arguing back and forth and just realized my Leaf produce no emissions, has no ignition switch and no head gasket..   ;D  :hide:

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2015, 12:51:10 pm »
The list of affected GM NA cars. Earliest ones are from 1999.

Worldwide they recalled 30M cars and paid compensation for 124 deaths.

That is a very small failure rate.

I suspect one death attributed to the GM debacle is enough, no?

Sure. But 32K people died in car accidents in the US in 2013 alone. It takes quite a bit of time to fish through the often vague accident reports to figure out the causes and see trends.

Offline Cord

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2015, 02:36:09 pm »


That is a very small failure rate.

Unless it was a loved one.

No deaths from the VW debacle as far as I know though.

A quick Google produced this: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/09/spreadsheet-day-how-many-people-did-vw-kill

Short version: the article claims 4000 deaths worldwide.
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Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2015, 03:49:23 pm »
I watch you guys arguing back and forth and just realized my Leaf produce no emissions, has no ignition switch and no head gasket..   ;D  :hide:
We just had a motor burn up on a fan after running for 4 hours  :P

Offline Guy

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2015, 06:17:15 pm »
I watch you guys arguing back and forth and just realized my Leaf produce no emissions, has no ignition switch and no head gasket..   ;D  :hide:
We just had a motor burn up on a fan after running for 4 hours  :P

One? Hardly enough for a class action.. ;D

Offline Cord

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2015, 06:25:50 pm »


That is a very small failure rate.

Unless it was a loved one.

No deaths from the VW debacle as far as I know though.

A quick Google produced this: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/09/spreadsheet-day-how-many-people-did-vw-kill

Short version: the article claims 4000 deaths worldwide.

LOL.  Wait, this guy is serious?

How many people died from gasoline emissions last year?

You made my day, thanks.

That's not the total that have died from diesel emissions. I think he's saying that's how many additional deaths VW's cheating caused.

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2015, 07:59:29 pm »


That is a very small failure rate.

Unless it was a loved one.

No deaths from the VW debacle as far as I know though.

A quick Google produced this: http://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2015/09/spreadsheet-day-how-many-people-did-vw-kill

Short version: the article claims 4000 deaths worldwide.

LOL.  Wait, this guy is serious?

How many people died from gasoline emissions last year?

You made my day, thanks.

That's not the total that have died from diesel emissions. I think he's saying that's how many additional deaths VW's cheating caused.

I think it is preposterous.

Let pretend that his number is correct. He is saying that there are "0.0044 deaths per ton of NOx". I wonder how much NOx there is every year and how many so called deaths because of this happen. In theory of course.

Offline Cord

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2015, 09:21:29 pm »
Here is a peer reviewed study based only on the 482,000 cars affected in the U.S.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/vw-emissions-estimated-to-cause-59-premature-us-deaths

In a nutshell: VW's cheating caused 59 premature deaths. And if all the cars are recalled by the end of 2016, then another 130 deaths will be prevented.

Regarding the effects in other areas:

Quote
Air quality expert Dr Gary Fuller, of King’s College London, said the research was a good assessment of the health impacts but it should not be assumed that the numbers could be extrapolated for other parts of the world, such as the UK.

“The very small number of diesels in the US, and the density of European cities means people are much more exposed to traffic emissions [in Europe] than in the US,” he said. He added that the study may have underestimated the total number of premature deaths because it did not consider the direct impact of the toxic gas nitrogen dioxide.

Offline G.Bombay

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2015, 11:25:16 pm »
Thats weird, the smokey school bus I see every morning must really be a killing machine.

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2015, 12:05:26 am »
Here is a peer reviewed study based only on the 482,000 cars affected in the U.S.

http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/oct/29/vw-emissions-estimated-to-cause-59-premature-us-deaths

In a nutshell: VW's cheating caused 59 premature deaths. And if all the cars are recalled by the end of 2016, then another 130 deaths will be prevented.

Regarding the effects in other areas:

Quote
Air quality expert Dr Gary Fuller, of King’s College London, said the research was a good assessment of the health impacts but it should not be assumed that the numbers could be extrapolated for other parts of the world, such as the UK.

“The very small number of diesels in the US, and the density of European cities means people are much more exposed to traffic emissions [in Europe] than in the US,” he said. He added that the study may have underestimated the total number of premature deaths because it did not consider the direct impact of the toxic gas nitrogen dioxide.

This is unbelievable pseudo science.  There is no direct link whatsoever. 



So you're saying that smog is healthy? Or maybe just that it's not healthy, but it doesn't actually kill people?  ???

FYI, 4,000 people died in four days here: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/countryside/9727128/The-Great-Smog-of-London-the-air-was-thick-with-apathy.html

Just because it's not as bad today doesn't mean it's harmless. And if some people die prematurely because of smog and NOx pollution, then why is it so crazy to think that some more people would die because of a little more NOx pollution (from cheating VWs, for example)?

Sounds like common sense, not pseudo-science.

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2015, 01:07:57 am »
^^ Who claimed there was a direct link?

It's hypothetical numbers based on statistics and epidemiology, but that doesn't mean it's not real.

Offline tpl

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Re: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2015, 05:43:40 am »
"Nearly 60 people will die prematurely from the excess air pollution caused by Volkswagen cheating emissions tests in the US, according to a new study."

Really it is just person years of life lost.  Some people who may have lived until 90 died at 89 and 11 months.  Some people got a case of bronchitis that lasted a week not 6 days and years later died a bit earlier. And so on.   But OTOH many people who might well have died early from pollution died of something else and were never autopsied to check on pollution damage so are not counted...except by statisticians.


 The statement "As well as the early deaths, the researchers estimated that the extra pollution from VW’s cars caused around 31 cases of chronic bronchitis, 34 hospital admissions for respiratory and cardiac issues, and 120,000 days when people had to restrict their physical activity as a result."      is just the same old statistical nonsense


The same sort of stuff is broadcast when it is suggested that speed limits are raised, beer is sold in grocery stores and wait for it...when Trudeau Jr promises to legalize Pot.   I have wondered whether there is an app for generating these things.


As for the reference to the London Smog, mrs tpl experienced the last big one when she was a little kid.   Temperature inversion and coal smoke full of sulphur and all the other products of incomplete combustion.   I am sure that somewhere there are articles comparing that to a bad day in LA before emission controls.   I do remember being on the sunken part of the Paris Peripherique  in rush hour on a warm day a year or two before the EU reduced sulphur in diesel and that must have been like LA or even worse.





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