Topic: Volkswagen to launch goodwill program for TDI owners

[Sir Osis of Liver]

A person could spend hours listing suits in the US on pretty much anything.

But the issue with Subaru was only identified after the cars were in production. Allegations aside, it is very unlikely that Subaru decided in the design phase to go with a design with a potentially high failure rate. They would have known as well as anyone the shitstorm that would follow.

VW set out in the design phase to deliberately cheat the system. The intent is very much different, and very relevant to regulators.

But Subaru knew VERY early on they were failure prone.  And they kept the same design for the following years while at the same time doing nothing for owners when they failed.

That's just as bad IMO.  Actually, it's worse because people were out more $$$ out of pocket than with the VW BS.

It's not as bad. Subaru was stonewalling after a problem showed up. VW deliberately set out to deceive regulators. Intent is important.

[rrocket]

A person could spend hours listing suits in the US on pretty much anything.

But the issue with Subaru was only identified after the cars were in production. Allegations aside, it is very unlikely that Subaru decided in the design phase to go with a design with a potentially high failure rate. They would have known as well as anyone the shitstorm that would follow.

VW set out in the design phase to deliberately cheat the system. The intent is very much different, and very relevant to regulators.

But Subaru knew VERY early on they were failure prone.  And they kept the same design for the following years while at the same time doing nothing for owners when they failed.

That's just as bad IMO.  Actually, it's worse because people were out more $$$ out of pocket than with the VW BS.

It's not as bad. Subaru was stonewalling after a problem showed up. VW deliberately set out to deceive regulators. Intent is important.

I disagree totally.  A bad Subaru headgasket will cost me $2500.  What VW did would cost me nothing out of pocket..and I could continue to drive my TDI worry free.

Huge difference to the consumer.

[quadzilla]

The difference is that Subaru didn't purposely design the engine to be faulty.  Once they knew about it, yes, they should have fixed it, but they didn't set out to deceive.

Of course they did

Tech 1: Lets use this part.
Tech 2: We can't use that one because it will leak.
Tech 1: Maybe but I'm sure it will be fine.
Tech 2: Look, this is why it will leak, lets design a better one that won't.
Tech 1: Don't worry about it. It should last long enough so just use it and we will save lots of money.

Not much difference IMO.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

A person could spend hours listing suits in the US on pretty much anything.

But the issue with Subaru was only identified after the cars were in production. Allegations aside, it is very unlikely that Subaru decided in the design phase to go with a design with a potentially high failure rate. They would have known as well as anyone the shitstorm that would follow.

VW set out in the design phase to deliberately cheat the system. The intent is very much different, and very relevant to regulators.

But Subaru knew VERY early on they were failure prone.  And they kept the same design for the following years while at the same time doing nothing for owners when they failed.

That's just as bad IMO.  Actually, it's worse because people were out more $$$ out of pocket than with the VW BS.

It's not as bad. Subaru was stonewalling after a problem showed up. VW deliberately set out to deceive regulators. Intent is important.

I disagree totally.  A bad Subaru headgasket will cost me $2500.  What VW did would cost me nothing out of pocket..and I could continue to drive my TDI worry free.

Huge difference to the consumer.

So it's worse because it affects you personally. Interesting take away.

But regulators aren't as interested in production cars that have non-safety or non-environmental issues crop up because of poor design. They mostly rely on the whole caveat emptor part of a free market to take care of. If a car has a reputation for blowing gaskets, and a person buys the car anyway, and it blows a gasket, they gambled and rolled snake eyes. Personally, I think there should be more stringent consumer protection laws, but that's the current state in most of NA.

They absolutely do care about manufacturers deliberately deceiving them when it comes to safety and environmental regulations.

[conwelpic]

On a side note, I was at one of the local VW dealers on Sunday and it was jammed with people.  I thought no one was buying VW's.....

probably curious as the dealers are closed on Sundays, so no salesman hassle. 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

A person could spend hours listing suits in the US on pretty much anything.

But the issue with Subaru was only identified after the cars were in production. Allegations aside, it is very unlikely that Subaru decided in the design phase to go with a design with a potentially high failure rate. They would have known as well as anyone the shitstorm that would follow.

VW set out in the design phase to deliberately cheat the system. The intent is very much different, and very relevant to regulators.

But Subaru knew VERY early on they were failure prone.  And they kept the same design for the following years while at the same time doing nothing for owners when they failed.

That's just as bad IMO.  Actually, it's worse because people were out more $$$ out of pocket than with the VW BS.

It's not as bad. Subaru was stonewalling after a problem showed up. VW deliberately set out to deceive regulators. Intent is important.

You know what is really bad?  GM knowingly using defective ignitions in some of their models causing multiple deaths and injury.

Somehow that isn't news any more in the US.  I wonder why?

(I just put on my tin foil hat....)

If the GM debacle can blow over, I suspect this one will too.  Unfortunately for VW, those in high power positions that made many of the decisions to deceive had left prior to the EPA finding the issue.  Given some manufacturer's cars are not meeting anywhere near the EPA mileage rating (I am talking to you, Ford EcoBoost), I wonder if there will be some digging into whether there is cheating going on in other areas by other manufacturers when these tests are being completed.  Likely not given they are US based companies.

On a side note, I was at one of the local VW dealers on Sunday and it was jammed with people.  I thought no one was buying VW's.....

These things always blow over. Audi and Toyota sudden acceleration, Ford Explorer/Firestone rollover issue, GM ignition switches. This will too, probably more quickly, because it wasn't safety related, and VW isn't a big presence in the US.

As an aside, I've never had an issue hitting EPA numbers in anything I've driven, Ecoboosts included.

[Noto]

A person could spend hours listing suits in the US on pretty much anything.

But the issue with Subaru was only identified after the cars were in production. Allegations aside, it is very unlikely that Subaru decided in the design phase to go with a design with a potentially high failure rate. They would have known as well as anyone the shitstorm that would follow.

VW set out in the design phase to deliberately cheat the system. The intent is very much different, and very relevant to regulators.

But Subaru knew VERY early on they were failure prone.  And they kept the same design for the following years while at the same time doing nothing for owners when they failed.

That's just as bad IMO.  Actually, it's worse because people were out more $$$ out of pocket than with the VW BS.

It's not as bad. Subaru was stonewalling after a problem showed up. VW deliberately set out to deceive regulators. Intent is important.

I disagree totally.  A bad Subaru headgasket will cost me $2500.  What VW did would cost me nothing out of pocket..and I could continue to drive my TDI worry free.

Huge difference to the consumer.

Said by the same guy who blamed the incident where a 15 year old girl was slammed to the floor by an officer on the said 15 year old...

Clearly, Rob, your opinion on societal matters differ from the norm.

[EV-Light]

On a side note, I was at one of the local VW dealers on Sunday and it was jammed with people.  I thought no one was buying VW's.....

probably curious as the dealers are closed on Sundays, so no salesman hassle. 

^^^^ 

[Cord]

(I just put on my tin foil hat....)

It's not a tin foil hat. It's just a VW fanboy hat...

Just keep meditating, repeating the mantra, "I am not Volkswagen. I only drive a car they built." And you'll be fine.

[Gurgie]

This sh!t will probably blow over eventually... only issue is that VW fooled the EPA and they don't like to be made fools of.  GM with the bad ignition, killed 100 or so old people... knew it was bad, oops, we're sorry... okay, since you're sorry, here's a fine you have to pay... but in the end, they didn't fool the EPA!!  This is the backwards mentality that will dominate this, a manufacturer knowingly put faulty ignitions in their vehicles that killed innocent lives and another knowingly cheated the regulator... and it will be the one that cheated the regulator that will pay the larger fine is my prediction.  Only in America!

[Sir Osis of Liver]

This sh!t will probably blow over eventually... only issue is that VW fooled the EPA and they don't like to be made fools of.  GM with the bad ignition, killed 100 or so old people... knew it was bad, oops, we're sorry... okay, since you're sorry, here's a fine you have to pay... but in the end, they didn't fool the EPA!!  This is the backwards mentality that will dominate this, a manufacturer knowingly put faulty ignitions in their vehicles that killed innocent lives and another knowingly cheated the regulator... and it will be the one that cheated the regulator that will pay the larger fine is my prediction.  Only in America!

GM was selling between 100k/yr and 200k/yr Cobalts alone with the switches. Total vehicles affected were somewhere around 1.5 to 2M units. If it was a widespread issue we'd see a much higher death toll. But most people don't hang a kg of keys off of their keychains.

[Gurgie]

This sh!t will probably blow over eventually... only issue is that VW fooled the EPA and they don't like to be made fools of.  GM with the bad ignition, killed 100 or so old people... knew it was bad, oops, we're sorry... okay, since you're sorry, here's a fine you have to pay... but in the end, they didn't fool the EPA!!  This is the backwards mentality that will dominate this, a manufacturer knowingly put faulty ignitions in their vehicles that killed innocent lives and another knowingly cheated the regulator... and it will be the one that cheated the regulator that will pay the larger fine is my prediction.  Only in America!

GM was selling between 100k/yr and 200k/yr Cobalts alone with the switches. Total vehicles affected were somewhere around 1.5 to 2M units. If it was a widespread issue we'd see a much higher death toll. But most people don't hang a kg of keys off of their keychains.

Oh, I agree, not everyone out there carries an entire neighborhood's worth of keys on their chains, otherwise it may have been more widespread.  But which is worse?  Loss of lives, of fooling the EPA?   

[rrocket]

A person could spend hours listing suits in the US on pretty much anything.

But the issue with Subaru was only identified after the cars were in production. Allegations aside, it is very unlikely that Subaru decided in the design phase to go with a design with a potentially high failure rate. They would have known as well as anyone the shitstorm that would follow.

VW set out in the design phase to deliberately cheat the system. The intent is very much different, and very relevant to regulators.

But Subaru knew VERY early on they were failure prone.  And they kept the same design for the following years while at the same time doing nothing for owners when they failed.

That's just as bad IMO.  Actually, it's worse because people were out more $$$ out of pocket than with the VW BS.

It's not as bad. Subaru was stonewalling after a problem showed up. VW deliberately set out to deceive regulators. Intent is important.

I disagree totally.  A bad Subaru headgasket will cost me $2500.  What VW did would cost me nothing out of pocket..and I could continue to drive my TDI worry free.

Huge difference to the consumer.

Said by the same guy who blamed the incident where a 15 year old girl was slammed to the floor by an officer on the said 15 year old...

Clearly, Rob, your opinion on societal matters differ from the norm.

Opinion of societal matters like being on time for a lunch date?  Or something different?

And my name isn't Rob.

And I stand by my comment.  If I own a TDI, it costs me nothing, zero, zilch to keep driving it.  I am out of pocket nothing (except my time to bring it in for the fix).  Plus I'll get a VW Bribe Visa card ($500) out of it.  Whereas with the Subaru, I'm out at least $2500.  And maybe more when it happens again a few years down the road.  Because there's no fix.

Ask anyone of this board and I think they'd side with me.  Would you rather own a car that has a recall campaign and get things fixed (VW)...or be left out to dry to the tune of thousands of dollars with a know issue (Subaru or GM with their headgaskets issue)?  I am looking at this from a consumer's point of view.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

This sh!t will probably blow over eventually... only issue is that VW fooled the EPA and they don't like to be made fools of.  GM with the bad ignition, killed 100 or so old people... knew it was bad, oops, we're sorry... okay, since you're sorry, here's a fine you have to pay... but in the end, they didn't fool the EPA!!  This is the backwards mentality that will dominate this, a manufacturer knowingly put faulty ignitions in their vehicles that killed innocent lives and another knowingly cheated the regulator... and it will be the one that cheated the regulator that will pay the larger fine is my prediction.  Only in America!

GM was selling between 100k/yr and 200k/yr Cobalts alone with the switches. Total vehicles affected were somewhere around 1.5 to 2M units. If it was a widespread issue we'd see a much higher death toll. But most people don't hang a kg of keys off of their keychains.

Yes but there were deaths and injuries.  How many butterflies have died because of the emissions scandal?

Pick pretty much any high volume car and you can squeeze 100 deaths out of 1.5M sold that could be partially linked to the vehicle. In the case of GM, the defect only became a problem because of the action of the driver, i.e. carrying a lot of weight on the keychain.

Ineptitude aside, GM didn't sit down at the design meetings and plot how to produce defective cars that would slide by regulatory agencies.

[rrocket]

Ineptitude aside, GM didn't sit down at the design meetings and plot how to produce defective cars that would slide by regulatory agencies.

But again...what's worse?  Burying a problem knowing it causes death AFTER the fact. (GM)

Or being sneaky BEFORE to trick regulators with something that causes no deaths (VW)

I'm going to have to go with GM here.  It's worse for the consumer.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Ineptitude aside, GM didn't sit down at the design meetings and plot how to produce defective cars that would slide by regulatory agencies.

But again...what's worse?  Burying a problem knowing it causes death AFTER the fact. (GM)

Or being sneaky BEFORE to trick regulators with something that causes no deaths (VW)

I'm going to have to go with GM here.  It's worse for the consumer.

Pissing off a regulator is always going to bring down the hammer.

[rrocket]

Ineptitude aside, GM didn't sit down at the design meetings and plot how to produce defective cars that would slide by regulatory agencies.

But again...what's worse?  Burying a problem knowing it causes death AFTER the fact. (GM)

Or being sneaky BEFORE to trick regulators with something that causes no deaths (VW)

I'm going to have to go with GM here.  It's worse for the consumer.

Pissing off a regulator is always going to bring down the hammer.

I don't care about regulators, because I'm not a regulator.  I'm a consumer.  So I think, as a consumer, which one sucks more?  And definitely the GM one sucks more.  Because I could die from it as many others have.

Which is the same reason I think ANY vehicle that costs you money out of pocket when the manufacturer knows there's an issue but does ZERO to resolve it is many times worse than having an issue (even one where you deceived from the start) where it costs the consumer nothing out of pocket.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Ineptitude aside, GM didn't sit down at the design meetings and plot how to produce defective cars that would slide by regulatory agencies.

But again...what's worse?  Burying a problem knowing it causes death AFTER the fact. (GM)

Or being sneaky BEFORE to trick regulators with something that causes no deaths (VW)

I'm going to have to go with GM here.  It's worse for the consumer.

Pissing off a regulator is always going to bring down the hammer.

I don't care about regulators, because I'm not a regulator.  I'm a consumer.  So I think, as a consumer, which one sucks more?  And definitely the GM one sucks more.  Because I could die from it as many others have.

Which is the same reason I think ANY vehicle that costs you money out of pocket when the manufacturer knows there's an issue but does ZERO to resolve it is many times worse than having an issue (even one where you deceived from the start) where it costs the consumer nothing out of pocket.

Regulators care about the regulations. They're also heavily involved in enforcement and issuing penalties. So deliberately trying to deceive them is going to draw heavy fire.

The GM issue is an issue if your keychain looks like this:



That doesn't excuse the way it was handled, but it is a contributing factor that will be taken into account.

I do think that we need proper consumer protection laws to deal with defective products.

[rrocket]

^^No doubt about it.

But like I said...I only care how it affects me, the consumer.  I don't give a flying f*** what the regulators think.  Unless if affects my pocket book.


I'll wait for No-To to chastise you for blaming the GM victims.....

[EV-Light]