Topic: First Drive: 2016 Honda Civic Sedan

[GTABeancounter]

MP3 at 320Kb/s is virtually impossible to tell from a lossless when played on a good Hi-Fi system.

Disagree completely.

I got every one of these right using a laptop and $20 Monoprice headphones.

http://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality

That sound you just heard (with your golden ears) is the can of worms being opened. 

[quadzilla]

MP3 at 320Kb/s is virtually impossible to tell from a lossless when played on a good Hi-Fi system.

Disagree completely.

I got every one of these right using a laptop and $20 Monoprice headphones.

http://www.npr.org/sections/therecord/2015/06/02/411473508/how-well-can-you-hear-audio-quality

Did you read this?

http://www.realhd-audio.com/?p=4681

Think there are 4 parts.

[quadzilla]

I can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 file in my S60's standard audio system.

Curious to know how you did A/B/X testing in your S60.

This is a can of worms,  and a discussion on double blind testing, level matching, psychoacoustics, objective vs. subjective evaluations etc. would take this way off topic and is better suited to other forums.

I can tell you that any content I've listened to in my S60 via Bluetooth is very sibilant and bright without even comparing to the CD.

As for CD, my first experience noticing a difference was when my 5th Gen IPOD's battery bit the dust. I was surprised at how good a couple of my favorite CD's sounded after having gotten used to the IPOD for a couple years. The 5th Gen still had the wolfson dac so the ipod was not the weak link in the chain.

My experience a couple weeks back with USB and high bit rate mp3 was a bit of a letdown compared to CD.

You are NOT comparing CD vs MP3, you are comparing different sources to play the music. HUGE difference. The fact that you did not use the exact same source to play all the music makes all your listening test void. And for the record, BT is the worse way to transfer music.

[dkaz]

CDs suck, listen to vinyl if you really want dynamic range.

[quadzilla]

CDs suck, listen to vinyl if you really want dynamic range.

You may have been joking but DR has nothing to do with the medium. It all has to do with how the music is mastered. There are shitty albums, cds, downloads, etc out there. At the same time there are great albums, cds, downloads, etc out there.

[GTABeancounter]

I can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 file in my S60's standard audio system.

Curious to know how you did A/B/X testing in your S60.

This is a can of worms,  and a discussion on double blind testing, level matching, psychoacoustics, objective vs. subjective evaluations etc. would take this way off topic and is better suited to other forums.

I can tell you that any content I've listened to in my S60 via Bluetooth is very sibilant and bright without even comparing to the CD.

As for CD, my first experience noticing a difference was when my 5th Gen IPOD's battery bit the dust. I was surprised at how good a couple of my favorite CD's sounded after having gotten used to the IPOD for a couple years. The 5th Gen still had the wolfson dac so the ipod was not the weak link in the chain.

My experience a couple weeks back with USB and high bit rate mp3 was a bit of a letdown compared to CD.

You are NOT comparing CD vs MP3, you are comparing different sources to play the music. HUGE difference. The fact that you did not use the exact same source to play all the music makes all your listening test void. And for the record, BT is the worse way to transfer music.

Unfortunately, absent the ability to play a flac file via USB I won't ever be able to do a blind test in my S60 with the same source. With this being the case the best I can do is compare the 1411kbps file read from the CD to the 320kbps MP3 file on a USB (which I experienced a couple weeks back) or otherwise via my ipod (256kbps AAC IIRC).
My assumption that a 1411kbps flac file on USB would sound better than a 320kbps MP3 file on USB is based on my experiences outside the S60.



The Gen 5 IPOD is well regarded as a great source given the quality of the onboard wolfson dac hence my comment regarding the IPOD not being the weak link.

[quadzilla]

I can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 file in my S60's standard audio system.

Curious to know how you did A/B/X testing in your S60.

This is a can of worms,  and a discussion on double blind testing, level matching, psychoacoustics, objective vs. subjective evaluations etc. would take this way off topic and is better suited to other forums.

I can tell you that any content I've listened to in my S60 via Bluetooth is very sibilant and bright without even comparing to the CD.

As for CD, my first experience noticing a difference was when my 5th Gen IPOD's battery bit the dust. I was surprised at how good a couple of my favorite CD's sounded after having gotten used to the IPOD for a couple years. The 5th Gen still had the wolfson dac so the ipod was not the weak link in the chain.

My experience a couple weeks back with USB and high bit rate mp3 was a bit of a letdown compared to CD.

You are NOT comparing CD vs MP3, you are comparing different sources to play the music. HUGE difference. The fact that you did not use the exact same source to play all the music makes all your listening test void. And for the record, BT is the worse way to transfer music.

The Gen 5 IPOD is well regarded as a great source given the quality of the onboard wolfson dac hence my comment regarding the IPOD not being the weak link. Unfortunately, absent the ability to play a flac file via USB I won't ever be able to do a blind test in my S60 like I can with my home systems.

But how is the iPod connected in the car?

[dougjp]

I just read in another review where Honda engineers said the 2.0 motor is capable of handling a lot of boost..... When is the si supposed to arrive anyway?

[GTABeancounter]

I can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 file in my S60's standard audio system.

Curious to know how you did A/B/X testing in your S60.

This is a can of worms,  and a discussion on double blind testing, level matching, psychoacoustics, objective vs. subjective evaluations etc. would take this way off topic and is better suited to other forums.

I can tell you that any content I've listened to in my S60 via Bluetooth is very sibilant and bright without even comparing to the CD.

As for CD, my first experience noticing a difference was when my 5th Gen IPOD's battery bit the dust. I was surprised at how good a couple of my favorite CD's sounded after having gotten used to the IPOD for a couple years. The 5th Gen still had the wolfson dac so the ipod was not the weak link in the chain.

My experience a couple weeks back with USB and high bit rate mp3 was a bit of a letdown compared to CD.

You are NOT comparing CD vs MP3, you are comparing different sources to play the music. HUGE difference. The fact that you did not use the exact same source to play all the music makes all your listening test void. And for the record, BT is the worse way to transfer music.

The Gen 5 IPOD is well regarded as a great source given the quality of the onboard wolfson dac hence my comment regarding the IPOD not being the weak link. Unfortunately, absent the ability to play a flac file via USB I won't ever be able to do a blind test in my S60 like I can with my home systems.

But how is the iPod connected in the car?

Via the same USB slot the USB stick would be plugged into. This is the pre lightning 16 pin connector so I'm reasonably certain the IPOD's dac is doing the conversion to analogue.

[dkaz]

CDs suck, listen to vinyl if you really want dynamic range.

You may have been joking but DR has nothing to do with the medium. It all has to do with how the music is mastered. There are shitty albums, cds, downloads, etc out there. At the same time there are great albums, cds, downloads, etc out there.

I'm partially joking. I'm making a point that people will argue that CDs are more convenient and don't degrade with each play. Digital music is even more convenient. Who's really yearning for outstanding sound quality in a vehicle?

I agree with the mastering. I have a few fantastic sound albums that sound a lot richer than the CD, namely Classified's Handshakes & Middle Fingers and Florence & the Machine's Lungs. Then Eminem's Curtain Call doesn't sound much better than the CD.

Maybe it's the music I listen to. Kids these days.

[quadzilla]

I can tell the difference between a CD and an MP3 file in my S60's standard audio system.

Curious to know how you did A/B/X testing in your S60.

This is a can of worms,  and a discussion on double blind testing, level matching, psychoacoustics, objective vs. subjective evaluations etc. would take this way off topic and is better suited to other forums.

I can tell you that any content I've listened to in my S60 via Bluetooth is very sibilant and bright without even comparing to the CD.

As for CD, my first experience noticing a difference was when my 5th Gen IPOD's battery bit the dust. I was surprised at how good a couple of my favorite CD's sounded after having gotten used to the IPOD for a couple years. The 5th Gen still had the wolfson dac so the ipod was not the weak link in the chain.

My experience a couple weeks back with USB and high bit rate mp3 was a bit of a letdown compared to CD.

You are NOT comparing CD vs MP3, you are comparing different sources to play the music. HUGE difference. The fact that you did not use the exact same source to play all the music makes all your listening test void. And for the record, BT is the worse way to transfer music.

The Gen 5 IPOD is well regarded as a great source given the quality of the onboard wolfson dac hence my comment regarding the IPOD not being the weak link. Unfortunately, absent the ability to play a flac file via USB I won't ever be able to do a blind test in my S60 like I can with my home systems.

But how is the iPod connected in the car?

Via the same USB slot the USB stick would be plugged into. This is the pre lightning 16 pin connector so I'm reasonably certain the IPOD's dac is doing the conversion to analogue.

I will (almost) agree with you. I see it happening one of two ways.

1) iPod DAC converts sound to analog, send to car stereo through cable, car now converts sound back to digital, then analog, then plays through speakers.

2) iPod bypasses DAC, sends digital signal to car through cable, car stereo converts to analog and play music through speakers.

I'm both scenarios the car is the final DAC. For scenario #1 I would be shocked that any car stereo has a pure analog path.

So no matter what you connect to the car stereo, it is still the 99 cent DAC inside the car stereo doing the final conversion to analog.

EDIT: Noticed you said its plugged into a USB port so #1 would have to pass a digital signal to the car's DAC which means its bypasses the iPod's DAC. If you used the headphone jack out to an aux-in then #1 would be appropriate. Either way, I still say the car's DAC does the final conversion.

[tooscoops]

Am I the only person left in North America who borrows CDs from the library and plays them at both home and in the car .. and does not rip them to disk?

i have 5 out from the library right now!... might rip one of them though... the others i'm not impressed with enough to want them...

[GTABeancounter]

EDIT: Noticed you said its plugged into a USB port so #1 would have to pass a digital signal to the car's DAC which means its bypasses the iPod's DAC. If you used the headphone jack out to an aux-in then #1 would be appropriate. Either way, I still say the car's DAC does the final conversion.
[/quote]

My ipod does not output digital audio from the 30 pin connector.

IIRC any ipod with the 30 pin connector (like my circa 2006 5th gen) outputs analogue audio from the 30 pin connector... that is why these exist...  https://www.jdslabs.com/products/8/fiio-l3-line-out-dock-cable/

This is easily proven by changing the equalizer settings in the ipod, they do have an impact on the sound played via the car's stereo.

Only the song/artist name and playlist data is digital (of course).

Maybe the analogue signal from the ipod is converted to digital and then back to analogue by the car's dac 

[JohnM]

Dear Cardiophiles (car audio enthusiasts, not heart specialists)
Audio quality is simply a matter of the most information being transmitted most accurately.  You can have a great deal of information output from your system but once it hits the analog end (speakers and the listening environment), anything can happen.

But take a look at this site to see which format delivers how much info.

http://newformresearch.com/index.php/planet-audio/fidelity-potential-index

Cheers,
John M.

[quadzilla]

My ipod does not output digital audio from the 30 pin connector.

IIRC any ipod with the 30 pin connector (like my circa 2006 5th gen) outputs analogue audio from the 30 pin connector... that is why these exist...  https://www.jdslabs.com/products/8/fiio-l3-line-out-dock-cable/

This is easily proven by changing the equalizer settings in the ipod, they do have an impact on the sound played via the car's stereo.

Only the song/artist name and playlist data is digital (of course).

Maybe the analogue signal from the ipod is converted to digital and then back to analogue by the car's dac 

Thanks for the link to the cable. So it looks like it uses the headphone jack out which would be analog, then the car would convert the signal back to digital meaning the car's DAC has the final say. So it wouldn't matter how great the DAC in the iPod is.

[Arctic_White]

Am I the only person left in North America who borrows CDs from the library and plays them at both home and in the car .. and does not rip them to disk?

i have 5 out from the library right now!... might rip one of them though... the others i'm not impressed with enough to want them...

What's your preferred way of ripping them from CD to a USB?

[quadzilla]

Am I the only person left in North America who borrows CDs from the library and plays them at both home and in the car .. and does not rip them to disk?

i have 5 out from the library right now!... might rip one of them though... the others i'm not impressed with enough to want them...

What's your preferred way of ripping them from CD to a USB?

I recommend Exact Audio Copy
http://www.exactaudiocopy.de/

[Solstice2006]

Actually without CD's it makes operating the vehicle a little safer as they don't have to be constantly changing the CD and also you don't have to worry about storing all the CD's in the vehicle which can take up a lot of space.

Use common sense, and don't change CD's while driving.  At a red light, there are plenty of them.  Also the stupid volume control that all of Honda cars now have make the whole infotainment system unsafe and annoying!

[GTABeancounter]

My ipod does not output digital audio from the 30 pin connector.

IIRC any ipod with the 30 pin connector (like my circa 2006 5th gen) outputs analogue audio from the 30 pin connector... that is why these exist...  https://www.jdslabs.com/products/8/fiio-l3-line-out-dock-cable/

This is easily proven by changing the equalizer settings in the ipod, they do have an impact on the sound played via the car's stereo.

Only the song/artist name and playlist data is digital (of course).



Maybe the analogue signal from the ipod is converted to digital and then back to analogue by the car's dac 

Thanks for the link to the cable. So it looks like it uses the headphone jack out which would be analog, then the car would convert the signal back to digital meaning the car's DAC has the final say. So it wouldn't matter how great the DAC in the iPod is.

huh?
1) DACs convert digital to analogue
2) That link was a quick way to show that line audio can be output from the old ipods via the 30 pin connector... that cable exists as a means to bypass the headphone amp in the ipod (I don't use one to connect my ipod to the car, that is done via the standard USB to 16 pin cable)
3) The DAC of that gen ipod is absolutely in the audio chain

[quadzilla]

My ipod does not output digital audio from the 30 pin connector.

IIRC any ipod with the 30 pin connector (like my circa 2006 5th gen) outputs analogue audio from the 30 pin connector... that is why these exist...  https://www.jdslabs.com/products/8/fiio-l3-line-out-dock-cable/

This is easily proven by changing the equalizer settings in the ipod, they do have an impact on the sound played via the car's stereo.

Only the song/artist name and playlist data is digital (of course).



Maybe the analogue signal from the ipod is converted to digital and then back to analogue by the car's dac 

Thanks for the link to the cable. So it looks like it uses the headphone jack out which would be analog, then the car would convert the signal back to digital meaning the car's DAC has the final say. So it wouldn't matter how great the DAC in the iPod is.

huh?
1) DACs convert digital to analogue
2) That link was a quick way to show that line audio can be output from the old ipods via the 30 pin connector... that cable exists as a means to bypass the headphone amp in the ipod (I don't use one to connect my ipod to the car, that is done via the standard USB to 16 pin cable)
3) The DAC of that gen ipod is absolutely in the audio chain

I stand corrected on how the cable works but it still doesn't matter as the DAC in the car stereo is last in the chain and that is all that matters.