Author Topic: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada  (Read 7213 times)

Offline Cord

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2015, 03:25:53 pm »

Cord, what's your opinion of the Ford (and other MNFRs) strategy of inflated MSRP, then lots of cash on the hood?  I'm definitely not a fan, but I' doubt that I am Ford's target audience (despite having owned an F150, and a Focus wagon). But does that strategy help boost Ford sales, more than a lower price/lower incentive strategy would?

Based on sales numbers, it would appear that their strategy works. It also appears that more manufacturers are using this strategy (I just read in another post that Subaru has a $2000 incentive on the CrossTrek). In any case, it's just a matter of degrees. Is there manufacturer out there that is able to routinely sell with no discounts/rebates/incentives? Is it reasonable to dislike the $4000 rebate company but like the $2000 rebate company just on that basis?

IMO, to be upset about it is just being upset that a company is trying to sell more product. I can see how it might be frustrating for car forum denizens that are interested in knowing what pricing is in effect at any given time. Wouldn't it be convenient for discussion purposes if pricing was just set on January 1 and then didn't change for the year? I can assure you that for dealership personnel it would be much easier if we didn't have to keep track of ever changing programs. Of course, manufacturers are trying move product, not keep things easy for the car forum or dealership crowds.

In the grand scheme of retail shopping, discounting off MSRP is a lot less convoluted than trying to compare prices on mattresses, appliances, or furniture. And it is arguably less manipulative than the supermarket forcing you to walk past all the high margin products in order to get to the milk at the very back of the store.

The idea of providing a discount to spur sales is perhaps the original marketing concept. It is a proven idea. The concept of buying "on sale" is deeply ingrained in our psyches.

There may be some practical reasons for manufacturers as well. MSRP is used to determine lease residuals. It is also the figure that banks use to determine maximum loan value. I think there is also some built in ability to account for exchange rate differences as well.

When you say you aren't a fan, what is it you don't like or what would you prefer?
« Last Edit: October 02, 2015, 03:38:10 pm by Cord »
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Offline mmret

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2015, 03:41:39 pm »
Another issue, given that its not easy to increase pricing during the year or even year to year for marketing reasons you're likely to end up with a strategy of setting the pricing a bit high and then coming down from it if only to say "we're not giving discounts" which is better than "we're cranking the price up".

Of course they can do this somewhat with interest rates too but that only affects a subset of customers...although I'm told its a large subset. MSRP affects all customers.
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel.
That makes me feel angry!

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Offline SaskSpecV

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2015, 04:03:58 pm »

When you say you aren't a fan, what is it you don't like or what would you prefer?
[/quote]

Full disclosure: I know I'm in the minority here, so I don't expect any MNFR to attempt to appease me!
It's not that I don't understand incentives, or realise why they would be useful.  Less popular product that isn't selling?  End of the model year, and need to clear it out?  Model that's long in the tooth?  You are going to need to discount those products if you want them to sell (or come up with some other type of incentive, like the "free winter tires, golf clubs, maintenance" whatever).

BUT: When the product is brand new, and already has cash on the hood, it tells me as a consumer that the MSRP is grossly inflated. Two examples for you, as a Ford guy.  I was interested in the 2013 Focus ST when it first came on sale.  MSRP of $29,995, but it immediately had $2000 off on the Ford website.  Not "6 months after it went on sale", but when the build-and-price website was first available.  So what does that tell me, as a consumer?  That this long-awaited hot hatch, which should sell for at/close to MSRP for the early adopters, is priced $2000 too high!

Same thing for the 2015 F150 when it came out - brand new, revolutionary aluminum body, class leading (according to some anyway, I'm sure AirBalancer would argue!).  And it too had multi-thousand dollar discounts from Day 1.  So you're selling "the deal" as much or more than the actual vehicle.

Ford (and the rest of the heavy incentives players) obviously believe that selling the "deal" is an effective sales strategy.  And obviously they are right! 

So why am I not a fan of the strategy?  Because as a consumer, I'm interested in making value comparisons when shopping for new vehicle (NOT simply "which is cheapest", or "gives me the  best deal", but what vehicle, at its price point, I feel provides good value).  And for MNFRs that use the inflate MSRP-big discount strategy, it becomes very convoluted to make those comparisons.  And it becomes especially difficult when the MNFRs are not forthcoming about the discounts available.  For example, why are GM discounts in the print ads, but not on their website? So after web comparisons, GM products aren't even on my radar.  Or layers of incentives that are obfuscated behind the fine print?

So from my POV I'd prefer a pricing strategy that is more simplistic - lower MSRP with no incentives at launch, then slowly increasing incentives as the sales landscape changes.  I'd don't want to have to think to myself when shopping at Cord's Super Ford Warehouse that "he's offering me $8500 off that F250, but I'm pretty sure he should give me $12000 off, because that's what my neighbour said he got off his F250 last year"   Market the product at a reasonable price, where I think I'm getting fair value, and won't be second-guessing "maybe I could have gotten an extra $1500 if I waited for the SUPER-DUPER MEGA sales event next month..."

Offline HeliDriver

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2015, 04:07:34 pm »
As for the SUV vs CUV question, it's always confusing.  Especially when the previous differentiator (BOF vs unibody) gets switched between versions of the same nameplate (i.e., Pathfinder, Explorer).  My personal litmus test for a true SUV - is it based on RWD, with 4WD or AWD optional?  Instead of a FWD-starting point, which I'd call a CUV.  So I'd call a Durango (unibody, but RWD-based) an SUV, but a Highlander/Pathfinder/Explorer (unibody, but FWD-based) a CUV.  Not that my definition makes any more sense than any other!

That's actually a pretty good point.

Last-gen BMW X1: longitudinal engine, RWD based, AWD available. SUV or CUV?  ;D

Offline SaskSpecV

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2015, 04:09:18 pm »
As for the SUV vs CUV question, it's always confusing.  Especially when the previous differentiator (BOF vs unibody) gets switched between versions of the same nameplate (i.e., Pathfinder, Explorer).  My personal litmus test for a true SUV - is it based on RWD, with 4WD or AWD optional?  Instead of a FWD-starting point, which I'd call a CUV.  So I'd call a Durango (unibody, but RWD-based) an SUV, but a Highlander/Pathfinder/Explorer (unibody, but FWD-based) a CUV.  Not that my definition makes any more sense than any other!

That's actually a pretty good point.

Last-gen BMW X1: longitudinal engine, RWD based, AWD available. SUV or CUV?  ;D

Damn!  Now there's a stumper...

Offline Cord

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #25 on: October 02, 2015, 04:32:48 pm »
Quote
BUT: When the product is brand new, and already has cash on the hood, it tells me as a consumer that the MSRP is grossly inflated. Two examples for you, as a Ford guy.  I was interested in the 2013 Focus ST when it first came on sale.  MSRP of $29,995, but it immediately had $2000 off on the Ford website.  Not "6 months after it went on sale", but when the build-and-price website was first available.  So what does that tell me, as a consumer?  That this long-awaited hot hatch, which should sell for at/close to MSRP for the early adopters, is priced $2000 too high!

OK, but why do you care what MSRP is? At least in Ford's case, the actual selling price after any incentives is readily available on their site as you found out. MSRP doesn't matter does it? If you are trying to compare prices basd on Autos.ca or other 3rd party articles, the fact they list only MSRP is really their problem, not Ford's. The company that is selling the vehicle clearly tells you the current price. If Ford's web site tells you that the price of a Focus ST is currently $30,000, what do you care what MSRP is?
 
I'm sure you'd agree that it wouldn't be much of a business strategy if a company made it known in advance that all prices would be lower in each consecutive month.

I have a question for you. If I recall, you are veterinarian, correct? Can you tell me why vet web sites never(or maybe rarely) provide any pricing information? I get that some procedures requires a visit to provide an estimate. But many are routine. Why no prices so I can easily shop between different clinics?  ;)

Offline SaskSpecV

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #26 on: October 02, 2015, 05:02:18 pm »
At least in Ford's case, the actual selling price after any incentives is readily available on their site as you found out. MSRP doesn't matter does it? If you are trying to compare prices basd on Autos.ca or other 3rd party articles, the fact they list only MSRP is really their problem, not Ford's.

1.  You are right about Ford's web site - they are fairly transparent about their discounts (unlike some others).  But it doesn't change the fact that as a consumer, I have no idea how (or how much) the price will vary month-to month.  The price could change next month at a low-incentive structure (e.g., Honda, Subaru) as well - but it's not likely to change nearly as much (less fluctuation in incentives).
2.  But actually, it is Ford's problem (not autos.ca, or the consumers) when an auto site lists only the MSRP.  When a consumer sees MSRP: 4x,xxx for an Escape and never looks at it again because all the competitors are listed at 3x,xxx - even though, after incentives, the vehicles are similarly priced.  Contrary argument: There's more people that end up buying the Escape because they like "the deal" they got - irrespective of the price of the competition.  That's why I don't think it's a bad business strategy in the slightest, I just don't appreciate it personally.


I have a question for you. If I recall, you are veterinarian, correct? Can you tell me why vet web sites never(or maybe rarely) provide any pricing information? I get that some procedures requires a visit to provide an estimate. But many are routine. Why no prices so I can easily shop between different clinics?  ;)

That's an excellent question.  It turns out that many veterinary associations specifically ban clinics advertising services based on price. Some dental and other medical associations have the same limitations.  And much like my complaint about the pricing strategies for vehicles, I don't agree with this approach either!  Let the consumer have free access to the information from advertisements.

Offline Snowman

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #27 on: October 02, 2015, 05:20:37 pm »
At least in Ford's case, the actual selling price after any incentives is readily available on their site as you found out. MSRP doesn't matter does it? If you are trying to compare prices basd on Autos.ca or other 3rd party articles, the fact they list only MSRP is really their problem, not Ford's.

1.  You are right about Ford's web site - they are fairly transparent about their discounts (unlike some others).  But it doesn't change the fact that as a consumer, I have no idea how (or how much) the price will vary month-to month.  The price could change next month at a low-incentive structure (e.g., Honda, Subaru) as well - but it's not likely to change nearly as much (less fluctuation in incentives).
2.  But actually, it is Ford's problem (not autos.ca, or the consumers) when an auto site lists only the MSRP.  When a consumer sees MSRP: 4x,xxx for an Escape and never looks at it again because all the competitors are listed at 3x,xxx - even though, after incentives, the vehicles are similarly priced.  Contrary argument: There's more people that end up buying the Escape because they like "the deal" they got - irrespective of the price of the competition.  That's why I don't think it's a bad business strategy in the slightest, I just don't appreciate it personally.


I have a question for you. If I recall, you are veterinarian, correct? Can you tell me why vet web sites never(or maybe rarely) provide any pricing information? I get that some procedures requires a visit to provide an estimate. But many are routine. Why no prices so I can easily shop between different clinics?  ;)

That's an excellent question.  It turns out that many veterinary associations specifically ban clinics advertising services based on price. Some dental and other medical associations have the same limitations.  And much like my complaint about the pricing strategies for vehicles, I don't agree with this approach either!  Let the consumer have free access to the information from advertisements
.

Its a facking scam I'm tired of the collusion..... Its as bad as the Ontario Insurance industry. I dish out $400/month on med and if anybody has a source for cheaper drugs I'm all ears.

Its a facking scam I'm tired of the collusion..... Its as bad as the Ontario Insurance industry. I dish out $400/month on meds and if anybody has a source for cheaper drugs I'm all ears.

Offline Cord

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #28 on: October 02, 2015, 05:26:00 pm »
Quote
2.  But actually, it is Ford's problem (not autos.ca, or the consumers) when an auto site lists only the MSRP.  When a consumer sees MSRP: 4x,xxx for an Escape and never looks at it again because all the competitors are listed at 3x,xxx - even though, after incentives, the vehicles are similarly priced.

I think that's a scenario that never happens. Who would rely on pricing info on autos.ca but not visit a manufacturer or dealer site if they are interested in a particular vehicle? I'd say the number would be negligible. Nobody avoids an entire model just because the tested cars always seem to be the most expensive top-line models.

Quote
That's an excellent question.  It turns out that many veterinary associations specifically ban clinics advertising services based on price. Some dental and other medical associations have the same limitations.  And much like my complaint about the pricing strategies for vehicles, I don't agree with this approach either!  Let the consumer have free access to the information from advertisements.

Thanks for the info. Of course, they ban it in order to maximize the profits of its members. Interesting how consumers accept that. Can you imagine the uproar if a Dealer or Manufacturer Association banned pricing in advertisements?

Offline rrocket

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20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #29 on: October 02, 2015, 05:48:28 pm »
They sell more Escapes, but their profit per vehicle is weak sauce.

Definitely not win-win
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline EV-Light

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #30 on: October 08, 2015, 01:23:04 pm »
They sell more Escapes, but their profit per vehicle is weak sauce.

Definitely not win-win

link?

last time I read Ford had increase the transaction price on the Escape was significantly up since the new model was introduced.

Offline Firm

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2015, 01:37:03 pm »
Surprised that the Equinox is still a relatively strong seller...Must be all rentals and fleets.

Offline Noto

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #32 on: October 08, 2015, 02:15:46 pm »
http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/2015/10/usa-best-selling-suv-crossover-september-2015.html
Lol,

#20 Jeep Patriot 8533   9117   -6.4%   88,719   69,958   26.8%

At least in Ford's case, the actual selling price after any incentives is readily available on their site as you found out. MSRP doesn't matter does it? If you are trying to compare prices basd on Autos.ca or other 3rd party articles, the fact they list only MSRP is really their problem, not Ford's.

1.  You are right about Ford's web site - they are fairly transparent about their discounts (unlike some others).  But it doesn't change the fact that as a consumer, I have no idea how (or how much) the price will vary month-to month.  The price could change next month at a low-incentive structure (e.g., Honda, Subaru) as well - but it's not likely to change nearly as much (less fluctuation in incentives).
2.  But actually, it is Ford's problem (not autos.ca, or the consumers) when an auto site lists only the MSRP.  When a consumer sees MSRP: 4x,xxx for an Escape and never looks at it again because all the competitors are listed at 3x,xxx - even though, after incentives, the vehicles are similarly priced.  Contrary argument: There's more people that end up buying the Escape because they like "the deal" they got - irrespective of the price of the competition.  That's why I don't think it's a bad business strategy in the slightest, I just don't appreciate it personally.


I have a question for you. If I recall, you are veterinarian, correct? Can you tell me why vet web sites never(or maybe rarely) provide any pricing information? I get that some procedures requires a visit to provide an estimate. But many are routine. Why no prices so I can easily shop between different clinics?  ;)

That's an excellent question.  It turns out that many veterinary associations specifically ban clinics advertising services based on price. Some dental and other medical associations have the same limitations.  And much like my complaint about the pricing strategies for vehicles, I don't agree with this approach either!  Let the consumer have free access to the information from advertisements.
My issue, and Ford does help a bit, is that when doing all the research at home online, I can see that manufacturer X is too expensive for consideration, and I will therefore not even go into the dealership.  Had I known $x,000 was 'on the hood', maybe I would, but then I'd feel that I have to really bargain to get the pricing to where I need it to be.

Likewise, I hate the "how much per month" figure, which totally sways what the selling price really is.

FWIW, Lawyers have similar restrictions to vets, etc.

Offline Cord

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #33 on: October 08, 2015, 02:27:39 pm »
Quote
My issue, and Ford does help a bit, is that when doing all the research at home online, I can see that manufacturer X is too expensive for consideration, and I will therefore not even go into the dealership.  Had I known $x,000 was 'on the hood', maybe I would, but then I'd feel that I have to really bargain to get the pricing to where I need it to be.

Likewise, I hate the "how much per month" figure, which totally sways what the selling price really is.

Is there a brand that doesn't show all the consumer rebates/rates on their web site?

Quote
FWIW, Lawyers have similar restrictions to vets, etc.

Restrictions placed by whom? A trade association solely for the purpose of protecting its members' profit margins?


Offline Noto

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #34 on: October 08, 2015, 02:32:36 pm »
Is there a brand that doesn't show all the consumer rebates/rates on their web site?
What brand, other than Ford, does so automatically?  I have yet to see one.

Quote
FWIW, Lawyers have similar restrictions to vets, etc.
Restrictions placed by whom? A trade association solely for the purpose of protecting its members' profit margins
The Law Society is not a "trade association solely for the purpose of protecting its members' profit."  Nor is the College of Physicians.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2015, 02:38:08 pm »
The Law Society is not a "trade association solely for the purpose of protecting its members' profit."  Nor is the College of Physicians.

Union, guild, professional society. Potato, potahto.

On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H. L. Mencken

Offline Cord

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2015, 02:40:05 pm »
Is there a brand that doesn't show all the consumer rebates/rates on their web site?
What brand, other than Ford, does so automatically?  I have yet to see one.

Really? Good to know. I don't spend that much time on other brands sites.

Quote
FWIW, Lawyers have similar restrictions to vets, etc.
Restrictions placed by whom? A trade association solely for the purpose of protecting its members' profit margins
The Law Society is not a "trade association solely for the purpose of protecting its members' profit."  Nor is the College of Physicians.
[/quote]

If you say so.

Offline OliverD

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2015, 02:45:45 pm »
Is there a brand that doesn't show all the consumer rebates/rates on their web site?
What brand, other than Ford, does so automatically?  I have yet to see one.

GM and FCA both do.

Edit: Mazda too.

Offline Noto

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2015, 02:45:53 pm »
The Law Society is not a "trade association solely for the purpose of protecting its members' profit."  Nor is the College of Physicians.

Union, guild, professional society. Potato, potahto.
Considering that I have to pay >$2,500 per year in fees, am subject to random audit, am limited by the Rules prescribed, and it has absolutely no financial benefit to me, I don't see how it is in any way similar to a union or a guild.  No potahtos here!

Sh!t, the LSUC is just a massive headache, and is helpful to clients - not lawyers.
https://www.lsuc.on.ca/uploadedFiles/RulesofProfessionalConduct.pdf

Here, enjoy an excerpt - the Rules of Professional Conduct were on the Bar exams, too, and are another 150 pages of jargon...
Quote
Chapter 2 Integrity
SECTION 2.1 INTEGRITY
2.1-1 A lawyer has a duty to carry on the practice of law and discharge all responsibilities to
clients, tribunals, the public and other members of the profession honourably and with integrity.
Commentary
[1] Integrity is the fundamental quality of any person who seeks to practise as a member of the
legal profession. If a client has any doubt about their lawyer’s trustworthiness, the essential
element in the true lawyer-client relationship will be missing. If integrity is lacking, the lawyer’s
usefulness to the client and reputation within the profession will be destroyed, regardless of how
competent the lawyer may be.
[2] Public confidence in the administration of justice and in the legal profession may be eroded by
a lawyer’s irresponsible conduct. Accordingly, a lawyer’s conduct should reflect favourably on
the legal profession, inspire the confidence, respect and trust of clients and of the community, and
avoid even the appearance of impropriety.

[3] Dishonourable or questionable conduct on the part of a lawyer in either private life or
professional practice
will reflect adversely upon the integrity of the profession and the
administration of justice. Whether within or outside the professional sphere, if the conduct is such
that knowledge of it would be likely to impair a client’s trust in the lawyer, the Law Society may
be justified in taking disciplinary action.
[4] Generally, however, the Law Society will not be concerned with the purely private or extraprofessional
activities of a lawyer that do not bring into question the lawyer’s professional
integrity.
[4.1] A lawyer has special responsibilities by virtue of the privileges afforded the legal profession
and the important role it plays in a free and democratic society and in the administration of
justice, including a special responsibility to recognize the diversity of the Ontario community, to
protect the dignity of individuals, and to respect human rights laws in force in Ontario.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: 20 best selling SUVs - Canada
« Reply #39 on: October 08, 2015, 02:50:49 pm »
Unions and guilds have dues, may or may not have codes of conduct, and the technical and engineering societies have both.

Their main function is to limit access to the profession to maintain income of their members. The rest of their roles are secondary.