Topic: UAW members turn down Fiat Chrysler tentative agreement, move a step closer to strike position

[tpl]

Well actually, sweeping the floor, Roomba vacuums notwithstanding, may be around as a human job long after a lot of middle class office type jobs have succumbed to a combination of
better speech recognition ( Siri Mk 4), massive data mining  and a few codified rules.  Once the speech systems are capable of a reasonable conversation...not to pass the original Turing test but no worse than your average CSR at one of the big companies like Rogers or Bell you'll never know that your application has been turned down by a machine.

I would not be surprised, now resumes are sent by email, that some companies don't employ a quite simple program that scans the text throws out ones without the right quals and for that matter, any with dubious spelling and grammar in the body of the resume.  Next step...checking previous employment, HR computer to HR computer.


Sometimes I am glad to be out of it all.

The HR in our last company would filter for key words on the first pass. If I was looking for someone with, for example, PLC or AutCAD experience, but the candidate had DCS or Microstation experience, they wouldn't make the cut. You had to make the position so broad you'd be flooded, or so narrow, you'd get no one. It was ridiculous and hugely frustrating.

The problem was the HR people had no idea about the engineering or technical side. How in the are they in a position to evaluate an applicant if they had no clue what anyone outside of their HR enclave actually did?

The HR dept at the Co I was at was like that.   Fortunately I was on good terms with HR and arranged to see all the resumes first.

There was another really weird problem at that time.   A lot of well qualified applicants from mainland China were appearing. Our HR had no knowledge of Chinese Unis apart from HK and Taiwan so they could not determine who was from a good school and who was not.  Fortunately we had a couple of people from China who could provide advice..


As I said above... think how bad it will get in a few years.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

$18?  Try mid $30s once you get your seniority!

Holy, for unskilled labour??

Yep. But that's not all. Per the CAW, the "all-in" figure which includes other benefits is $60-$65 hr. For unskilled labor!  It's the 2nd highest in the world apparently. Hard to be competitive with other auto assembly nations with figures like that. And frankly, it would be hard for me to blame a company who didn't want to pay that much for unskilled labor.

The CAW has never been interested in preserving jobs. Their main goal has been preserving wages. HUGE difference.

Do what's fair. $10/hour? Mexico is still cheaper. And India, China, Taiwan, Indonesia etc etc. There is always someplace cheaper.

So lets get rid of the manufacturing sector altogether. Those people can always get jobs in call centres. Oh, no, I guess those low wage places have that wrapped up. How about McDonalds? No, actually a lot of those jobs are being filled with "guest workers" from the Philippines.

I'm sure there's something those guys can do right? 

I think $20 is fair.  When the locomotive plant closed down, they went to Indiana for $14/hr.  So being at $20hr I don't think that place would have closed.

Like I said..I wish they could get $100hr and hose the greedy corporations.  But sadly it doesn't work that way.

You're still going top down and not bottom up.

The same plant could relocate again when the local subsidies are cut and they find another place where they can pay $9, or maybe $5 a day. Whohoo welcome back 1926!

[rrocket]

$18?  Try mid $30s once you get your seniority!

Holy, for unskilled labour??

Yep. But that's not all. Per the CAW, the "all-in" figure which includes other benefits is $60-$65 hr. For unskilled labor!  It's the 2nd highest in the world apparently. Hard to be competitive with other auto assembly nations with figures like that. And frankly, it would be hard for me to blame a company who didn't want to pay that much for unskilled labor.

The CAW has never been interested in preserving jobs. Their main goal has been preserving wages. HUGE difference.

Do what's fair. $10/hour? Mexico is still cheaper. And India, China, Taiwan, Indonesia etc etc. There is always someplace cheaper.

So lets get rid of the manufacturing sector altogether. Those people can always get jobs in call centres. Oh, no, I guess those low wage places have that wrapped up. How about McDonalds? No, actually a lot of those jobs are being filled with "guest workers" from the Philippines.

I'm sure there's something those guys can do right? 

I think $20 is fair.  When the locomotive plant closed down, they went to Indiana for $14/hr.  So being at $20hr I don't think that place would have closed.

Like I said..I wish they could get $100hr and hose the greedy corporations.  But sadly it doesn't work that way.

You're still going top down and not bottom up.

The same plant could relocate again when the local subsidies are cut and they find another place where they can pay $9, or maybe $5 a day. Whohoo welcome back 1926!

We have zero control over this until laws are enacted.  Until that happens, you have to try and make it attractive for companies (somehow).  And having the 2nd highest unskilled wages in the world isn't a way to do that...or to prevent current companies from leaving.  Thus far, we have among the highest quality in the world.  But as Mexico is proving...their vehicles are high quality also. 

So unless the CAW (or gov't) does something attractive to keep plants open here...it's just a matter of time at the current wages.


What's your solution to this issue?  Do you have one?

[CanuckS2K]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

But that's up to the individual, not the employer.  Why should an employer pay an unskilled worker more just because?  If employers paid all unskilled workers $35 an hour, I wonder how many companies would go out of business? 

[rrocket]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

But that's up to the individual, not the employee.  Why should an employer pay an unskilled worker more just because?  If employers paid all unskilled workers $35 an hour, I wonder how many companies would go out of business?

They should pay Mcdonald's workers $35 hr.  Same skill set as automotive workers.

[johngenx]

But that's up to the individual, not the employee.  Why should an employer pay an unskilled worker more just because?  If employers paid all unskilled workers $35 an hour, I wonder how many companies would go out of business?

Which is why minimum incomes work better than minimum wages.  And this idea that we have a large portion of the workforce that are "worthless" is BS.

[CanuckS2K]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

I think that is the starting point.

Anyone who works full-time absolutely deserves to be above the poverty line, earn a living wage, etc.

Dumb idea of the day: Use provincial living wage guidelines to set minimum wages. Debate the formula and get on with it.

--

I'm not interested in criticism.

Remember, I may be be a benevolent dictator but I'm still a dictator. Challenge me and my people will come for you. 

How would you define a living wage though?  That would be a tough one IMO.  What one calls a living wage might be an entirely different idea of what the next person does.  Not to mention geographical disparities and costs of living across the Country.   

[rrocket]

But that's up to the individual, not the employee.  Why should an employer pay an unskilled worker more just because?  If employers paid all unskilled workers $35 an hour, I wonder how many companies would go out of business?

Which is why minimum incomes work better than minimum wages.  And this idea that we have a large portion of the workforce that are "worthless" is BS.

Who said worthless?  There's a job for everyone.  But not every business can sustain over paying for wages for unskilled labor.

[CanuckS2K]

John, I don't recall anyone in this thread using the word worthless, so not sure where that comment is coming from.  You bring a certain skill to the table, a Company should pay accordingly.  If not, again you should get paid accordingly. 

[Fobroader]

John, I don't recall anyone in this thread using the word worthless, so not sure where that comment is coming from.  You bring a certain skill to the table, a Company should pay accordingly.  If not, again you should get paid accordingly.

This x1000. Your pay should 100% be based on your qualifications and schooling.

[tpl]

John, I don't recall anyone in this thread using the word worthless, so not sure where that comment is coming from.  You bring a certain skill to the table, a Company should pay accordingly.  If not, again you should get paid accordingly.

This x1000. Your pay should 100% be based on your qualifications and schooling.

How about experience in the job and work ethic as well especially for jobs that don't require much schooling.

[mixmanmash]

Well actually, sweeping the floor, Roomba vacuums notwithstanding, may be around as a human job long after a lot of middle class office type jobs have succumbed to a combination of
better speech recognition ( Siri Mk 4), massive data mining  and a few codified rules.  Once the speech systems are capable of a reasonable conversation...not to pass the original Turing test but no worse than your average CSR at one of the big companies like Rogers or Bell you'll never know that your application has been turned down by a machine.

I would not be surprised, now resumes are sent by email, that some companies don't employ a quite simple program that scans the text throws out ones without the right quals and for that matter, any with dubious spelling and grammar in the body of the resume.  Next step...checking previous employment, HR computer to HR computer.


Sometimes I am glad to be out of it all.

The HR in our last company would filter for key words on the first pass. If I was looking for someone with, for example, PLC or AutCAD experience, but the candidate had DCS or Microstation experience, they wouldn't make the cut. You had to make the position so broad you'd be flooded, or so narrow, you'd get no one. It was ridiculous and hugely frustrating.

The problem was the HR people had no idea about the engineering or technical side. How in the are they in a position to evaluate an applicant if they had no clue what anyone outside of their HR enclave actually did?

Crazy.  Especially since everyone should know that MicroStation is way better than AutoCAD anyways.     This coming from a person who has used both extensively.

[Fobroader]

John, I don't recall anyone in this thread using the word worthless, so not sure where that comment is coming from.  You bring a certain skill to the table, a Company should pay accordingly.  If not, again you should get paid accordingly.

This x1000. Your pay should 100% be based on your qualifications and schooling.

How about experience in the job and work ethic as well especially for jobs that don't require much schooling.

Experience is important....but work ethic is kind of a hard thing to quantify....

[CanuckS2K]

John, I don't recall anyone in this thread using the word worthless, so not sure where that comment is coming from.  You bring a certain skill to the table, a Company should pay accordingly.  If not, again you should get paid accordingly.

This x1000. Your pay should 100% be based on your qualifications and schooling.

Schooling is just one factor though, or at least to me. You can still be a very skilled worker, through experience, without schooling.  I've seen it a gazillion times in the IT industry over the last 20 years. 

[johngenx]

Experience is important....but work ethic is kind of a hard thing to quantify....

I don't think so.  Every place I've worked I could tell you about a person's work ethic.

But, there is an underlying theme to the thread that the person who works their arse off at Humpty's has to earn less than someone who has a job that requires more training/schooling, etc.

And I agree, but only somewhat.  I think that if I'm going to invest $30-50K in a degree, I'm going to need to earn a return - which is a real shame that we've raised education costs to the point that we're not seeking knowledge, but instead ROI.

I don't think everyone should earn the same - nope.  But, I'm solidly in the camp that anyone with a job should be earning enough to rent a place, feed themselves, and enjoy their lives at least somewhat.  This is not true now.

Why not?  Because the middle class and those earning less fight each other for the crumbs.  We're taught that we don't deserve a living wage 'cause we don't have whatever it is that's needed: some skill, some education, whatever.

And to the argument that business can't afford those living wages?  Again, read about minimum incomes.  It can create opportunity as then start ups and low margin service businesses can make a go of it.

[rrocket]

Experience is important....but work ethic is kind of a hard thing to quantify....

I don't think so.  Every place I've worked I could tell you about a person's work ethic.

But, there is an underlying theme to the thread that the person who works their arse off at Humpty's has to earn less than someone who has a job that requires more training/schooling, etc.

And I agree, but only somewhat.  I think that if I'm going to invest $30-50K in a degree, I'm going to need to earn a return - which is a real shame that we've raised education costs to the point that we're not seeking knowledge, but instead ROI.

I don't think everyone should earn the same - nope.  But, I'm solidly in the camp that anyone with a job should be earning enough to rent a place, feed themselves, and enjoy their lives at least somewhat.  This is not true now.

Why not?  Because the middle class and those earning less fight each other for the crumbs.  We're taught that we don't deserve a living wage 'cause we don't have whatever it is that's needed: some skill, some education, whatever.

And to the argument that business can't afford those living wages?  Again, read about minimum incomes.  It can create opportunity as then start ups and low margin service businesses can make a go of it.

You simply can't tell someone's work ethic in a job interview. That's what he meant IMO.

[Northernridge]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

I think that is the starting point.

Anyone who works full-time absolutely deserves to be above the poverty line, earn a living wage, etc.

Dumb idea of the day: Use provincial living wage guidelines to set minimum wages. Debate the formula and get on with it.

--

I'm not interested in criticism.

Remember, I may be be a benevolent dictator but I'm still a dictator. Challenge me and my people will come for you. 

How would you define a living wage though?  That would be a tough one IMO.  What one calls a living wage might be an entirely different idea of what the next person does.  Not to mention geographical disparities and costs of living across the Country.

It's an old concept with lots of definition already around it. I'd implement it provincially to allow for different living costs.

[CanuckS2K]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

I think that is the starting point.

Anyone who works full-time absolutely deserves to be above the poverty line, earn a living wage, etc.

Dumb idea of the day: Use provincial living wage guidelines to set minimum wages. Debate the formula and get on with it.

--

I'm not interested in criticism.

Remember, I may be be a benevolent dictator but I'm still a dictator. Challenge me and my people will come for you. 

How would you define a living wage though?  That would be a tough one IMO.  What one calls a living wage might be an entirely different idea of what the next person does.  Not to mention geographical disparities and costs of living across the Country.

It's an old concept with lots of definition already around it. I'd implement it provincially to allow for different living costs.

But even Provincially, things vary in a huge degree in regards to living costs.  Vancouver vs Prince Albert, Oakville vs Sudbury, Halifax vs Truro just as an example.  For people that qualify for this living wage, what's the criteria......number of hours worked?  Just curious?

I'm all for all folks that work hard to support themselves and their family.  But I do strongly feel that unskilled folks making $35+ hr isn't sustainable.  I can't think of anywhere else it happens in the private sector, just in unions.  If folks don't want some of the larger manufacturers in Canada closing their doors to go elsewhere in the world, some things need to change.  Just IMHO. 

[Northernridge]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

I think that is the starting point.

Anyone who works full-time absolutely deserves to be above the poverty line, earn a living wage, etc.

Dumb idea of the day: Use provincial living wage guidelines to set minimum wages. Debate the formula and get on with it.

--

I'm not interested in criticism.

Remember, I may be be a benevolent dictator but I'm still a dictator. Challenge me and my people will come for you. 

How would you define a living wage though?  That would be a tough one IMO.  What one calls a living wage might be an entirely different idea of what the next person does.  Not to mention geographical disparities and costs of living across the Country.

It's an old concept with lots of definition already around it. I'd implement it provincially to allow for different living costs.

But even Provincially, things vary in a huge degree in regards to living costs.  Vancouver vs Prince Albert, Oakville vs Sudbury, Halifax vs Truro just as an example.  For people that qualify for this living wage, what's the criteria......number of hours worked?  Just curious?

I'm all for all folks that work hard to support themselves and their family.  But I do strongly feel that unskilled folks making $35+ hr isn't sustainable.  I can't think of anywhere else it happens in the private sector, just in unions.  If folks don't want some of the larger manufacturers in Canada closing their doors to go elsewhere in the world, some things need to change.  Just IMHO.

We're talking about different things. A living wage is nowhere near $35/hour. I'm talking about full-time workers being paid enough to cover the basics.

Google is your friend. 

[CanuckS2K]

But unskilled labor folks making this kind of coin is kinda part of the thread, no?  Just adding to it.  There was a reason why it was a separate paragraph.