Topic: UAW members turn down Fiat Chrysler tentative agreement, move a step closer to strike position

[Sir Osis of Liver]

No, they wouldn't.  Without the union, those would have been low paying jobs without benefits all along.

maybe, maybe not...tough to tell.

considering how many people quote Henry Ford for paying his workers a decent wage, etc, he paid his labourers the equivalent of $15/hr (adjusted to today's dollar)...yes, it was a fair amount more than what others were paying, but it certainly wasn't this bastion of income many seem to imply...$15 isn't much more than our minimum wage currently is, although a few parties are proposing raising it to $17-$19/hr.

There was no minimum wage in 1925. A lot of people were absolutely destitute. There were no benefits, and and yet Ford's jump to $5/day or $1300/year (~$67/day, $17,420/year in 2105) doubled the typical assembly line wage in the industry. He also cut working hours from 60 to 40 a week at a time when most places still had 6 twelve hour days. Other industrialists were horrified and tried everything they could  to get that reversed.

To put things into perspective, in 1925, the most expensive Model T you could get, the 5 passenger four door sedan, was $680, about $9200, the base one ran about half of that.

If you'd like to go back to the wages of the 1920's, things are going to get a lot worse.

[redman]

Even the Swiss rejected this idea :

Swiss voters rejected a proposal to limit executives’ pay to 12 times that of junior employees.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2013-11-24/swiss-voters-reject-strictest-executive-pay-limits

[johngenx]

Even the Swiss

Even the Swiss?  You're confusing them with other European nations, they're not bastions of equality - they're very wealthy and oriented around money.

[redman]

Even the Swiss

Even the Swiss?  You're confusing them with other European nations, they're not bastions of equality - they're very wealthy and oriented around money.

Oh I know the Swiss 

[Kris78]

Unskilled labour - globally - is going to be in a bind.

Take a trip into the googleverse and see who the biggest customer for robotic manufacturing is. China. They are moving in this direction due to - drumroll - increasing labour costs.

Skilled trades will likely be safe. Mostly due to the fact that not all things lend themselves to mass manufacturing (eg. Ford GT). However, the days of being unskilled workers on an assembly making middle class wages? Yeah, those jobs are going bye bye.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Unskilled labour - globally - is going to be in a bind.

Take a trip into the googleverse and see who the biggest customer for robotic manufacturing is. China. They are moving in this direction due to - drumroll - increasing labour costs.

Skilled trades will likely be safe. Mostly due to the fact that not all things lend themselves to mass manufacturing (eg. Ford GT). However, the days of being unskilled workers on an assembly making middle class wages? Yeah, those jobs are going bye bye.

Which jobs to you think are safe for the middle class? There aren't many things that can't be off-shored or automated.

My last company has been moving engineering work to India, where they have a fully owned subsidiary. They've been doing it for 5 years now. It's transparent to the client. Some, or maybe all of them think the work was done in Canada.

Subtle racism aside, there's no reason why all the work the company did in NA couldn't be moved there, keeping the sales team and maybe the project mangers around to maintain a local look to the company.

[johngenx]

Our issue is the MASSIVE rise in our nations in terms of productivity of labour.  Automation and computerization has had a huge effect on our work.  We still generate enormous sums in terms of GDP - we just do it with a lot less input labour.

So, shorten the work week dramatically and stop wage disparity and who gives a flying f-ck if a Tims workers makes $50K?  If we're all making $50-150K, and we work 28hrs a week, that sounds good.  Wasn't that the whole long term goal anyway?  Creating a giant leisure class where we all lived well and didn't work a lot?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Our issue is the MASSIVE rise in our nations in terms of productivity of labour.  Automation and computerization has had a huge effect on our work.  We still generate enormous sums in terms of GDP - we just do it with a lot less input labour.

So, shorten the work week dramatically and stop wage disparity and who gives a flying f-ck if a Tims workers makes $50K?  If we're all making $50-150K, and we work 28hrs a week, that sounds good.  Wasn't that the whole long term goal anyway?  Creating a giant leisure class where we all lived well and didn't work a lot?

Well that can't be allowed! People without degrees shouldn't be allowed to support themselves! Obviously they're sub-human! UNSKILLED!

Exactly at what point did a degree end up being a golden ticket to something other than mere existence?

[Fobroader]

Our issue is the MASSIVE rise in our nations in terms of productivity of labour.  Automation and computerization has had a huge effect on our work.  We still generate enormous sums in terms of GDP - we just do it with a lot less input labour.

So, shorten the work week dramatically and stop wage disparity and who gives a flying f-ck if a Tims workers makes $50K?  If we're all making $50-150K, and we work 28hrs a week, that sounds good.  Wasn't that the whole long term goal anyway?  Creating a giant leisure class where we all lived well and didn't work a lot?

Well that can't be allowed! People without degrees shouldn't be allowed to support themselves! Obviously they're sub-human! UNSKILLED!

Exactly at what point did a degree end up being a golden ticket to something other than mere existence?

Since always. Having a degree or skilled trade was always an advantage. Not having schooling was acceptable 30 years ago, today, no way.

[johngenx]

Since always pretty much the post WW2 era, mostly in the last little while.

[CanuckS2K]

Our issue is the MASSIVE rise in our nations in terms of productivity of labour.  Automation and computerization has had a huge effect on our work.  We still generate enormous sums in terms of GDP - we just do it with a lot less input labour.

So, shorten the work week dramatically and stop wage disparity and who gives a flying f-ck if a Tims workers makes $50K?  If we're all making $50-150K, and we work 28hrs a week, that sounds good.  Wasn't that the whole long term goal anyway?  Creating a giant leisure class where we all lived well and didn't work a lot?

Well that can't be allowed! People without degrees shouldn't be allowed to support themselves! Obviously they're sub-human! UNSKILLED!

Exactly at what point did a degree end up being a golden ticket to something other than mere existence?

Wow, really?  Do you honestly think that someone sweeping a floor should make the same amount of money as someone that has spent time and money, and effort receiving their Engineering degree? 

[Fobroader]

Since always pretty much the post WW2 era, mostly in the last little while.

So always..... 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Our issue is the MASSIVE rise in our nations in terms of productivity of labour.  Automation and computerization has had a huge effect on our work.  We still generate enormous sums in terms of GDP - we just do it with a lot less input labour.

So, shorten the work week dramatically and stop wage disparity and who gives a flying f-ck if a Tims workers makes $50K?  If we're all making $50-150K, and we work 28hrs a week, that sounds good.  Wasn't that the whole long term goal anyway?  Creating a giant leisure class where we all lived well and didn't work a lot?

Well that can't be allowed! People without degrees shouldn't be allowed to support themselves! Obviously they're sub-human! UNSKILLED!

Exactly at what point did a degree end up being a golden ticket to something other than mere existence?

Since always. Having a degree or skilled trade was always an advantage. Not having schooling was acceptable 30 years ago, today, no way.

The term "credentialism" also refers to an over-emphasis on certificates and degrees as a way of determining social status.[19] Credentialism can lead to credential inflation. Sociologist Randall Collins' 1979 book The Credential Society "examine the connection between credentialism and stratification." [20]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Credentialism_and_educational_inflation#Social_status

Also: Credential creep is the process of inflation of the minimum job requirement. This may happen when a professional organization increases the entry to practice requirements for the profession, or it may be the result of "one-upsmanship" among candidates for a job, creating a kind of de facto increase in required credentials for a position.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

[tpl]

Well actually, sweeping the floor, Roomba vacuums notwithstanding, may be around as a human job long after a lot of middle class office type jobs have succumbed to a combination of
better speech recognition ( Siri Mk 4), massive data mining  and a few codified rules.  Once the speech systems are capable of a reasonable conversation...not to pass the original Turing test but no worse than your average CSR at one of the big companies like Rogers or Bell you'll never know that your application has been turned down by a machine.

I would not be surprised, now resumes are sent by email, that some companies don't employ a quite simple program that scans the text throws out ones without the right quals and for that matter, any with dubious spelling and grammar in the body of the resume.  Next step...checking previous employment, HR computer to HR computer.


Sometimes I am glad to be out of it all.

[Northernridge]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

I think that is the starting point.

Anyone who works full-time absolutely deserves to be above the poverty line, earn a living wage, etc.

Dumb idea of the day: Use provincial living wage guidelines to set minimum wages. Debate the formula and get on with it.

--

I'm not interested in criticism.

Remember, I may be be a benevolent dictator but I'm still a dictator. Challenge me and my people will come for you. 

[johngenx]

I'm not a fan of minimum wages.  Here's a great short article on why.  Highlights are that minimum incomes do away with all the myriad of social programs that marginalized/disabled/etc must navigate.  It applies to everyone in the nation.  It doesn't penalize low productivity of labour industries.  It is applicable to everyone, not just those with a job.  Structured right, it provides an incentive to work.

http://news.nationalpost.com/full-comment/andrew-coyne-guarantee-a-minimum-income-not-a-minimum-wage

I would not be surprised, now resumes are sent by email, that some companies don't employ a quite simple program that scans the text throws out ones without the right quals and for that matter, any with dubious spelling and grammar in the body of the resume.

Commonplace now.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

To be clear, there is nothing wrong with having people with a lot of education make more money. But that doesn't mean that people without should be resigned to subsistence living.

I think that is the starting point.

Anyone who works full-time absolutely deserves to be above the poverty line, earn a living wage, etc.

Dumb idea of the day: Use provincial living wage guidelines to set minimum wages. Debate the formula and get on with it.

--

I'm not interested in criticism.

Remember, I may be be a benevolent dictator but I'm still a dictator. Challenge me and my people will come for you. 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Well actually, sweeping the floor, Roomba vacuums notwithstanding, may be around as a human job long after a lot of middle class office type jobs have succumbed to a combination of
better speech recognition ( Siri Mk 4), massive data mining  and a few codified rules.  Once the speech systems are capable of a reasonable conversation...not to pass the original Turing test but no worse than your average CSR at one of the big companies like Rogers or Bell you'll never know that your application has been turned down by a machine.

I would not be surprised, now resumes are sent by email, that some companies don't employ a quite simple program that scans the text throws out ones without the right quals and for that matter, any with dubious spelling and grammar in the body of the resume.  Next step...checking previous employment, HR computer to HR computer.


Sometimes I am glad to be out of it all.

The HR in our last company would filter for key words on the first pass. If I was looking for someone with, for example, PLC or AutCAD experience, but the candidate had DCS or Microstation experience, they wouldn't make the cut. You had to make the position so broad you'd be flooded, or so narrow, you'd get no one. It was ridiculous and hugely frustrating.

The problem was the HR people had no idea about the engineering or technical side. How in the are they in a position to evaluate an applicant if they had no clue what anyone outside of their HR enclave actually did?

[rrocket]

$18?  Try mid $30s once you get your seniority!

Holy, for unskilled labour??

Yep. But that's not all. Per the CAW, the "all-in" figure which includes other benefits is $60-$65 hr. For unskilled labor!  It's the 2nd highest in the world apparently. Hard to be competitive with other auto assembly nations with figures like that. And frankly, it would be hard for me to blame a company who didn't want to pay that much for unskilled labor.

The CAW has never been interested in preserving jobs. Their main goal has been preserving wages. HUGE difference.

Do what's fair. $10/hour? Mexico is still cheaper. And India, China, Taiwan, Indonesia etc etc. There is always someplace cheaper.

So lets get rid of the manufacturing sector altogether. Those people can always get jobs in call centres. Oh, no, I guess those low wage places have that wrapped up. How about McDonalds? No, actually a lot of those jobs are being filled with "guest workers" from the Philippines.

I'm sure there's something those guys can do right? 

I think $20 is fair.  When the locomotive plant closed down, they went to Indiana for $14/hr.  So being at $20hr I don't think that place would have closed.

Like I said..I wish they could get $100hr and hose the greedy corporations.  But sadly it doesn't work that way.