Topic: Test Drive: 2015 BMW M235i

[rrocket]

Did you factor in how much more time the BMW would be in for repairs compared to the Mustang?

And the fact that after warranty the BMW has the running costs of a nuclear submarine.....

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Given the fact that so many people lease these days, why would that be a factor in the decision?  I would say with the BMW warranty/maintenance that the running costs would be about the same.

Look at how many times Sailor723 has had to take in his ML to the dealership, under warranty.  It might not be costing him anything out of his pocket maintenance wise, but the extreme PITA of continuously bringing your vehicle in has to count for something.  Just saying.   

THIS.

[johngenx]

Look at how many times Sailor723 has had to take in his ML to the dealership, under warranty.  It might not be costing him anything out of his pocket maintenance wise, but the extreme PITA of continuously bringing your vehicle in has to count for something.  Just saying.   

I agree.  Our E300 was horribly unreliable, but since it was well in warranty coverage, we were never out a penny.  But, the cost in terms of time and inconvenience was ridiculous.  We sold the car out of frustration, not out of financial cost.  In fact, financially we would probably have been ahead had we kept the car - but it was too big of a PITA.

[CSH]

Did you factor in how much more time the BMW would be in for repairs compared to the Mustang?

And the fact that after warranty the BMW has the running costs of a nuclear submarine.....

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Given the fact that so many people lease these days, why would that be a factor in the decision?  I would say with the BMW warranty/maintenance that the running costs would be about the same.

Look at how many times Sailor723 has had to take in his ML to the dealership, under warranty.  It might not be costing him anything out of his pocket maintenance wise, but the extreme PITA of continuously bringing your vehicle in has to count for something.  Just saying.   

Well Sailor has had problems with his MB and this is a BMW
He also has had nightmares with his Caddy (SRX i think it was) and this is a ford.
So if you use the same logic both the cars will be POS reliability wise one is FGC and one is D3

I think if the BMW is leased the TCO for the BMW may be close enough to that of the GT and decision between the two may not be financial or reliability (specially if it is a lease)

[Triple Bob]

Did you factor in how much more time the BMW would be in for repairs compared to the Mustang?

And the fact that after warranty the BMW has the running costs of a nuclear submarine.....

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Given the fact that so many people lease these days, why would that be a factor in the decision?  I would say with the BMW warranty/maintenance that the running costs would be about the same.

Look at how many times Sailor723 has had to take in his ML to the dealership, under warranty.  It might not be costing him anything out of his pocket maintenance wise, but the extreme PITA of continuously bringing your vehicle in has to count for something.  Just saying.   

His is a slight anomaly.  But we are also talking about different cars and manufacturers.

When talking about bikes I've heard numerous owners talk about how KTM's are unreliable and the dealer network/customer service is utter cr@p, but Ron won't have a word of it.  Horses for courses...

[Northernridge]

Maybe I'm tempting fate here but I've been to the dealership once for unscheduled service through 2 Berlin taxis over six and half years. That and the long service interval (+/– 16,000km) leads me to believe my FGC is at the dealership in the lower quartile among dealer-serviced new cars.

Take that haters.   

[johngenx]

I think that it's more than possible of course to buy a very reliable German car.  However, stats show (CR, etc) that you're more likely to end up with trouble than with some other makes.  So, it depends on how risk adverse you are.

[Northernridge]

I've never figured out just how likely you are to have a problem from CR's data. They report relative reliability but what does that mean in terms of probability of defects per vehicle and then what is the actual associated risk?

E.g. If FGCs are 2x more likely to have a reliability issue that Japanese cars and Japanese cars have a rate-of-defect of 1 in 100, then the FGC has a rate-of-defect of 2 in 100. That would mean 98% of FGC buyers will not experience a reliability problem. A buyer would have to decide if she/he could stand the risk of a 2% chance of an issue or 1% greater risk compared to a Japanese vehicle. (I have no idea what the real numbers are)

How much larger is the FGC reliability risk in actual terms?

[DriverJeff]

I think that it's more than possible of course to buy a very reliable German car.  However, stats show (CR, etc) that you're more likely to end up with trouble than with some other makes.  So, it depends on how risk adverse you are.

Right, but the debate was between the M235i and a Mustang, not the overall reliability of German cars in general versus "some other makes." 

I don't believe an M235i without an excess of new tech-geek options will be any less reliable than a new Mustang.  I doubt either one of them would be reliable nightmares, but I also don't believe either one of them will be Corolla-reliable either.

[SaskSpecV]

I've never figured out just how likely you are to have a problem from CR's data. They report relative reliability but what does that mean in terms of probability of defects per vehicle and then what is the actual associated risk?

Unfortunately NR, most people don't seem interested or capable of making  the distinction between absolute and relative risk.  Just part of the larger issue of innumeracy in a big chunk of the population.

Besides not having absolute reliability data, I'd argue that CR doesn't even report relative reliability all that well.  Their ordinal-level ranking system (5 dots) doesn't allow for numerically meaningful distinction between groupings.  To be fair, that's not really the point of CR though.  And at least their sample size is large (if skewed).

[Triple Bob]

I think that it's more than possible of course to buy a very reliable German car.  However, stats show (CR, etc) that you're more likely to end up with trouble than with some other makes.  So, it depends on how risk adverse you are.

Right, but the debate was between the M235i and a Mustang, not the overall reliability of German cars in general versus "some other makes." 

I don't believe an M235i without an excess of new tech-geek options will be any less reliable than a new Mustang.  I doubt either one of them would be reliable nightmares, but I also don't believe either one of them will be Corolla-reliable either.

What he said.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I think that it's more than possible of course to buy a very reliable German car.  However, stats show (CR, etc) that you're more likely to end up with trouble than with some other makes.  So, it depends on how risk adverse you are.

Right, but the debate was between the M235i and a Mustang, not the overall reliability of German cars in general versus "some other makes." 

I don't believe an M235i without an excess of new tech-geek options will be any less reliable than a new Mustang. I doubt either one of them would be reliable nightmares, but I also don't believe either one of them will be Corolla-reliable either.

This is a very important part of the BMW business model. Keep the mystique going regardless of evidence to the contrary.

[DriverJeff]

I think that it's more than possible of course to buy a very reliable German car.  However, stats show (CR, etc) that you're more likely to end up with trouble than with some other makes.  So, it depends on how risk adverse you are.

Right, but the debate was between the M235i and a Mustang, not the overall reliability of German cars in general versus "some other makes." 

I don't believe an M235i without an excess of new tech-geek options will be any less reliable than a new Mustang. I doubt either one of them would be reliable nightmares, but I also don't believe either one of them will be Corolla-reliable either.

This is a very important part of the BMW business model. Keep the mystique going regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Well my belief is also based on 3 separate BMWs that I've owned.  Again, not Corolla-reliable, but waaaaaaaaaay better than my Audi was or my wife's Mazda6 that was built on the Mustang Flat Rock line. 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I think that it's more than possible of course to buy a very reliable German car.  However, stats show (CR, etc) that you're more likely to end up with trouble than with some other makes.  So, it depends on how risk adverse you are.

Right, but the debate was between the M235i and a Mustang, not the overall reliability of German cars in general versus "some other makes." 

I don't believe an M235i without an excess of new tech-geek options will be any less reliable than a new Mustang. I doubt either one of them would be reliable nightmares, but I also don't believe either one of them will be Corolla-reliable either.

This is a very important part of the BMW business model. Keep the mystique going regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Well my belief is also based on 3 separate BMWs that I've owned.  Again, not Corolla-reliable, but waaaaaaaaaay better than my Audi was or my wife's Mazda6 that was built on the Mustang Flat Rock line.

Turbo BMWs have been, and continue to be problematic.

The Mazda6 has nothing in common with any Mustang beyond assembly point.

[Hannibalsmith]

This is a great little car. I test drove this. Its fast, luxurious and handles well. I really like the new Mustang GT as well.

For crying out loud. Lease the M235i for three years then lease the Mustang for three years (or vice versa) and enjoy the best of both worlds!

[DriverJeff]

I think that it's more than possible of course to buy a very reliable German car.  However, stats show (CR, etc) that you're more likely to end up with trouble than with some other makes.  So, it depends on how risk adverse you are.

Right, but the debate was between the M235i and a Mustang, not the overall reliability of German cars in general versus "some other makes." 

I don't believe an M235i without an excess of new tech-geek options will be any less reliable than a new Mustang. I doubt either one of them would be reliable nightmares, but I also don't believe either one of them will be Corolla-reliable either.

This is a very important part of the BMW business model. Keep the mystique going regardless of evidence to the contrary.

Well my belief is also based on 3 separate BMWs that I've owned.  Again, not Corolla-reliable, but waaaaaaaaaay better than my Audi was or my wife's Mazda6 that was built on the Mustang Flat Rock line.

Turbo BMWs have been, and continue to be problematic.

The Mazda6 has nothing in common with any Mustang beyond assembly point.

JD Power and Assoc. rates BMW above average and well above Ford.   
http://canada.jdpower.com/press-releases/2015-vehicle-dependability-study

Also, the 2 series was awarded their overall IQS award for a small, premium car.
http://www.jdpower.com/cars/study/2015-Initial-Quality-Study-%28IQS%29-by-Category/567ENG/Small-Premium-Car/1371

The Mustang did not win.  http://www.jdpower.com/cars/study/2015-Initial-Quality-Study-%28IQS%29-by-Category/567ENG/Midsize-Sporty-Car/1077

[Sir Osis of Liver]

JD Powers

[mixmanmash]

JD Powers

Exactly what I was thinking.

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[Snowman]

JD Powers

Consumers Reports has BMW rated as the top compact luxury brand and the M235i as it top rated luxury sports car   

[Sir Osis of Liver]

JD Powers

Consumers Reports has BMW rated as the top compact luxury brand and the M235i as it top rated luxury sports car   

Road test, not reliability,

[Snowman]

Reliability above average