Topic: Report suggests Ford reinforced F-150 SuperCrew to boost IIHS crash test ratings

[Autos_Editor]

Are other automakers gaming crash tests, too?
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[EV-Light]

Why? Oh why....


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[mmret]

"What gets measured, gets managed."

[PJungnitsch]

Same thinking behind removing bumpers, radios and spare tires to get higher payload and tow ratings:

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2014/07/gm-admits-removing-parts-weighing-pickups.html

[Kris78]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating. In this case, Ford would have either declared the differences in models, and had multiple tests. Alternatively, they could lie, and look like idiots when caught.

 

[blotter]

I was once part of co-ordinating a team to work on a employee campaign put out by a head office.
this was basically a contest for various teams. 

My boss basically told me; take a look at all the rules, that's everyone's sandbox.  Now you figure out a way to play in that sandbox and get this team to finish first.

this somewhat reminds me of that.   I can see plenty of thinking... "how do we win bending the rules to our advantage but not breaking them"

[Noto]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

[X-Traction]

Reinforcing just the driver's side for the overlap crash test isn't necessarily a matter of "cheating".  The driver's seat is always occupied, and most overlap crashes are on that side. So it may actually make sense.

[Fobroader]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

This would make the most sense. Buy from the dealer, manufacturer reimburses them, test is absolutely legit as there is no way to know which unit will be picked.

[ThePointblank]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

That's my understanding of how the IIHS gets their vehicles; they are purchased from dealers. They only time a manufacturer will directly provide a vehicle is if their vehicle failed miserably in a earlier test, and the manufacturer made modifications to the design to correct the faults.

So, I would assume the issue is that some manufacturers are deliberately modifying certain trims that they know the IIHS would likely buy in hopes of getting a good rating across the model.

[rrocket]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

This would make the most sense. Buy from the dealer, manufacturer reimburses them, test is absolutely legit as there is no way to know which unit will be picked.

I still have my tinfoil hat on as far as IIHS testing vehicles and rating them so THEY can determine what insurance rates should follow. 

[chrischasescars]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

That's my understanding of how the IIHS gets their vehicles; they are purchased from dealers. They only time a manufacturer will directly provide a vehicle is if their vehicle failed miserably in a earlier test, and the manufacturer made modifications to the design to correct the faults.

So, I would assume the issue is that some manufacturers are deliberately modifying certain trims that they know the IIHS would likely buy in hopes of getting a good rating across the model.

Yes, the IIHS does buy the cars they test, from dealerships, precisely so that automakers can't submit "ringers" for testing.

[ThePointblank]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

This would make the most sense. Buy from the dealer, manufacturer reimburses them, test is absolutely legit as there is no way to know which unit will be picked.

I still have my tinfoil hat on as far as IIHS testing vehicles and rating them so THEY can determine what insurance rates should follow.

To think of it this way, insurance companies don't want to be paying more in claims for bodily injury. So they have a vested interest in ensuring that the products they are insuring are safe for the people that use them.

[rrocket]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

This would make the most sense. Buy from the dealer, manufacturer reimburses them, test is absolutely legit as there is no way to know which unit will be picked.

I still have my tinfoil hat on as far as IIHS testing vehicles and rating them so THEY can determine what insurance rates should follow.

To think of it this way, insurance companies don't want to be paying more in claims for bodily injury. So they have a vested interest in ensuring that the products they are insuring are safe for the people that use them.

Or to look at it another way...if they can find a way to raise the rates on one of the most popular vehicle on the road, which in turn will line their pockets with cash....they will.

[Cord]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

This would make the most sense. Buy from the dealer, manufacturer reimburses them, test is absolutely legit as there is no way to know which unit will be picked.

I still have my tinfoil hat on as far as IIHS testing vehicles and rating them so THEY can determine what insurance rates should follow.

To think of it this way, insurance companies don't want to be paying more in claims for bodily injury. So they have a vested interest in ensuring that the products they are insuring are safe for the people that use them.

I remember reading in Car and Driver how back in the day, GEICO supplied large numbers of U.S. police forces with radar equipment to be used to catch speeders. Do you think they were just concerned about people being hurt in accidents or did they want to develop a means of increasing rates for huge numbers of people whether they had accidents or not?

If indeed IIHS buys their own vehicles to test, wouldn't Ford be taking an awful risk by not building SuperCabs and regular cabs to the same standards as Crew Cabs? I mean what if the IIHS bought a SuperCab to test? Unless they somehow knew what model the IIHS was going to test. Lots of conspiracy theory overtones to this story.

[ThePointblank]

Maybe the IIHS can simply ask Manufacturers to declare any differences in vehicles before they apply the rating.

...or perhaps IIHS should go out and buy each model anonymously from a dealership so that the 'tester' cannot be tampered with or designed specifically for the test.

This would make the most sense. Buy from the dealer, manufacturer reimburses them, test is absolutely legit as there is no way to know which unit will be picked.

I still have my tinfoil hat on as far as IIHS testing vehicles and rating them so THEY can determine what insurance rates should follow.

To think of it this way, insurance companies don't want to be paying more in claims for bodily injury. So they have a vested interest in ensuring that the products they are insuring are safe for the people that use them.

I remember reading in Car and Driver how back in the day, GEICO supplied large numbers of U.S. police forces with radar equipment to be used to catch speeders. Do you think they were just concerned about people being hurt in accidents or did they want to develop a means of increasing rates for huge numbers of people whether they had accidents or not?

If indeed IIHS buys their own vehicles to test, wouldn't Ford be taking an awful risk by not building SuperCabs and regular cabs to the same standards as Crew Cabs? I mean what if the IIHS bought a SuperCab to test? Unless they somehow knew what model the IIHS was going to test. Lots of conspiracy theory overtones to this story.

1. Both. Raise the rates on speeders because they are statistically more likely to get in a crash, and get more injuries as a result of the crash. IIHS is there to allow the insurance companies to properly assess risk, which means increased rates for some vehicles and decreased rates for other vehicles. That's a very good thing because it has the secondary benefit of pushing safety forward because if a car maker starts loosing sales to other brands that have better safety, they will also adapt and improve their vehicles to match.

2. Ford knows that the F-150 SuperCrew is the most popular variant of their F-150 series. Every time I see a F-150, 4 out of 5 times its a SuperCrew model. When the IIHS buy their vehicles for crash testing, they buy the most popular trim for the crash test; the reason they don't buy every single trim and test them all is because they don't have the money and time to test every single model and trim out there.

Now the IIHS is going to buy a non-SuperCrew model for testing because they were made aware from an automotive publication that the non-SuperCrew F-150 has less structural reinforcements that could affect crash test results. This is about making sure that integrity is preserved in their testing regimen and methodology to prevent and catch cheaters.

The question then becomes, has Ford cheated on crash test results in order to get a favourable result? No auto manufacturer wants to have a model that doesn't have a good crash test rating because the resulting negative publicity will kill sales and create public relations nightmare. Look how quickly other companies such as Toyota moved when the small offset crash test was first introduced and many models got poor ratings.

[rrocket]

Look how quickly other companies such as Toyota moved when the small offset crash test was first introduced and many models got poor ratings.

Again...the poor ratings were a means to generate further insurance revenue by giving a poor rating.  The offset crash accounts for only ~6% or frontal crashes.  And the risk of having a serious injury in the grand scheme of things is fewer than 2%.

So are they really interested in saving lives or generating income?

[ThePointblank]

Look how quickly other companies such as Toyota moved when the small offset crash test was first introduced and many models got poor ratings.

Again...the poor ratings were a means to generate further insurance revenue by giving a poor rating.  The offset crash accounts for only ~6% or frontal crashes.  And the risk of having a serious injury in the grand scheme of things is fewer than 2%.

So are they really interested in saving lives or generating income?

And there is a real world correlation between crash test results and injuries. The tests represent what is a worst case scenario. The IIHS says from their insurance information, the small overlap crash results in 25% of deaths in a frontal collision. This has an effect on payouts for crash victims.

If in the same crash, someone driving a vehicle with a 'Good' rating manages to walk away practically unscathed, but in a vehicle that has a 'Poor' rating, the person is in serious trouble, you can sure bet the insurance companies will raise rates on the vehicles with 'poor' ratings to cover the fact that people are statistically more likely to be hurt in that vehicle. If you were in a small overlap crash with a Nissan Quest, you would be lucky to normally walk again, compared to a Toyota Sienna or a Honda Odyssey.

It should be noted that Europe has a similar organization, Euro NCAP which also conducts crash tests, and rates them publicly, and of course, these test results are panned by automotive journalists to their readers. Most notable example is the Rover 100, which was withdrawn from production when that model got the worst rating possible (1 out of 5), and sales promptly collapsed.

[X-Traction]

Is the cab version of the F-150 that was tested not just the most popular version, but also the heaviest?  If it is the heaviest, then beefing it up is more likely to be a sensible move than some sort of cheating.

You posters who believe in all these car conspiracy theories about insurance, enforcement etc., do you also think 9/11 was an inside job? Just wondering.

[ThePointblank]

Is the cab version of the F-150 that was tested not just the most popular version, but also the heaviest?  If it is the heaviest, then beefing it up is more likely to be a sensible move than some sort of cheating.

You posters who believe in all these car conspiracy theories about insurance, enforcement etc., do you also think 9/11 was an inside job? Just wondering.

It is the heaviest, but the issue is that other car makers haven't been seen to do the same thing. So it's a bit head scratching for Ford to do this, unless they were deliberately gaming the test, or being cheap.