Topic: Test Drive: 2015 Lexus NX 300h

[X-Traction]

The planetary gearbox aka CVT in the Toyota hybrids are outstanding - preferably to any other CVT by far.

Have you tried the ones Subaru is using these days?  I like those (and the ones in the Accord)  much better than any I've experienced attached to a Toyota Hybrid.

You mean to say that you much preferred the drive of the 4 banger Accord CVT (which is quite good) and the CVT found in a "Subaru" to a Toyota "hybrid"?  What metric are you using?  Acceleration?  A Camry Hybrid will absolutely spank a Subaru 6 banger Legacy.

 Regardless, you are comparing apples to oranges, hybrid to non hybrid whose "transmission" hardware purposely is completely different.

I'm referring to the way the CVT is programmed to behave.  Subaru and Honda seem to try to make their CVTs behave more like a traditional automatic -- Subie especially by building in the 'stepped' sensation of changing gears.  The rubber-band feel of the CVTs attached to the Toyotas I've experienced is miserable. 

Why would anyone detune a cvt so it simulates non-cvt transmissions? Forcing the engine to operate at non-optimal/inefficient rpm's.  There's nothing inherently wrong about the sound of cvt's.  In fact, their sound is a result of running the engine at ideal speed.  If there' something wrong with that, it's only a matter of what one is used to.

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Yet another article calling out non-linear brake feel in a hybrid.  I haven't driven any hybrid extensively other than my own Escape Hybrid, but other than the first stop of a drive, you'd never know there was anything unusual about the brake system.  And if Ford solved this quite a few years ago, then why can't the likes of Toyota?

And compared to the Escape Hybrid awd, I'm not impressed by the mileage this Lexus gets.  The Lexus is a bit heavier though.

[rrocket]

Why would anyone detune a cvt so it simulates non-cvt transmissions? Forcing the engine to operate at non-optimal/inefficient rpm's.  There's nothing inherently wrong about the sound of cvt's.  In fact, their sound is a result of running the engine at ideal speed.  If there' something wrong with that, it's only a matter of what one is used to.

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Yet another article calling out non-linear brake feel in a hybrid.  I haven't driven any hybrid extensively other than my own Escape Hybrid, but other than the first stop of a drive, you'd never know there was anything unusual about the brake system.  And if Ford solved this quite a few years ago, then why can't the likes of Toyota?

And compared to the Escape Hybrid awd, I'm not impressed by the mileage this Lexus gets.  The Lexus is a bit heavier though.

I thought it odd too.  Although I haven't driven every Toyota/Lexus hybrid, the ones I have seemed just fine in the brake dept.

[X-Traction]

Why would anyone detune a cvt so it simulates non-cvt transmissions? Forcing the engine to operate at non-optimal/inefficient rpm's.  There's nothing inherently wrong about the sound of cvt's.  In fact, their sound is a result of running the engine at ideal speed.  If there' something wrong with that, it's only a matter of what one is used to.

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Yet another article calling out non-linear brake feel in a hybrid.  I haven't driven any hybrid extensively other than my own Escape Hybrid, but other than the first stop of a drive, you'd never know there was anything unusual about the brake system.  And if Ford solved this quite a few years ago, then why can't the likes of Toyota?

And compared to the Escape Hybrid awd, I'm not impressed by the mileage this Lexus gets.  The Lexus is a bit heavier though.

I thought it odd too.  Although I haven't driven every Toyota/Lexus hybrid, the ones I have seemed just fine in the brake dept.

[shock] We agree on something!  I also test drove about 6 2009-2010 Prii and one other Escape Hybrid, and I don't recall anything funny about their brakes.  Why is there such a big difference between auto journalists and what it seems others experience with hybrid braking? 

[rrocket]

Why would anyone detune a cvt so it simulates non-cvt transmissions? Forcing the engine to operate at non-optimal/inefficient rpm's.  There's nothing inherently wrong about the sound of cvt's.  In fact, their sound is a result of running the engine at ideal speed.  If there' something wrong with that, it's only a matter of what one is used to.

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Yet another article calling out non-linear brake feel in a hybrid.  I haven't driven any hybrid extensively other than my own Escape Hybrid, but other than the first stop of a drive, you'd never know there was anything unusual about the brake system.  And if Ford solved this quite a few years ago, then why can't the likes of Toyota?

And compared to the Escape Hybrid awd, I'm not impressed by the mileage this Lexus gets.  The Lexus is a bit heavier though.

I thought it odd too.  Although I haven't driven every Toyota/Lexus hybrid, the ones I have seemed just fine in the brake dept.

[shock] We agree on something!  I also test drove about 6 2009-2010 Prii and one other Escape Hybrid, and I don't recall anything funny about their brakes.  Why is there such a big difference between auto journalists and what it seems others experience with hybrid braking?

Just something to complain about?  Maybe vastly different feeling from their "usual" car?  I don't expect the brake feel in a hybrid to feel like my 911.....but I also don't expect it to feel "funny".  And thus far that has been my experience.  Feels like any other car.

Was this car perhaps pre-production or something?

[X-Traction]

Why would anyone detune a cvt so it simulates non-cvt transmissions? Forcing the engine to operate at non-optimal/inefficient rpm's.  There's nothing inherently wrong about the sound of cvt's.  In fact, their sound is a result of running the engine at ideal speed.  If there' something wrong with that, it's only a matter of what one is used to.

----------------

Yet another article calling out non-linear brake feel in a hybrid.  I haven't driven any hybrid extensively other than my own Escape Hybrid, but other than the first stop of a drive, you'd never know there was anything unusual about the brake system.  And if Ford solved this quite a few years ago, then why can't the likes of Toyota?

And compared to the Escape Hybrid awd, I'm not impressed by the mileage this Lexus gets.  The Lexus is a bit heavier though.

I thought it odd too.  Although I haven't driven every Toyota/Lexus hybrid, the ones I have seemed just fine in the brake dept.

[shock] We agree on something!  I also test drove about 6 2009-2010 Prii and one other Escape Hybrid, and I don't recall anything funny about their brakes.  Why is there such a big difference between auto journalists and what it seems others experience with hybrid braking?

Just something to complain about?  Maybe vastly different feeling from their "usual" car?  I don't expect the brake feel in a hybrid to feel like my 911.....but I also don't expect it to feel "funny".  And thus far that has been my experience.  Feels like any other car.

Was this car perhaps pre-production or something?

yes, but car reviewers are always saying this.

Definitely the Escape Hybrid's brakes can be called "sensitive"; the braking "tip-in" is more sudden and it takes a few stops to get accustomed to it.  And there's that "bump" in the linearity of braking on the first stop of a drive, at 5kph where it switches to regenerative braking to the mechanical brakes.  (Because regenerative braking won't hold a vehicle at a standstill.)  After the first stop of any drive, it's smooth and the transition can only be detected by looking at the charge meter.  Which goes to zero as regenerative braking ceases.

[DriverJeff]

I'm not saying it isn't something you'd get used to -- you do, and I did.  But it does take getting used to because it doesn't feel like "every other car".  I haven't driven an Escape Hybrid to comment, but every vehicle I have driven with the regen braking system is grabby in its brake feel and as I stated in the review, it's the biggest dynamic drawback of what's otherwise a pretty agreeable machine.

[X-Traction]

I'm not saying it isn't something you'd get used to -- you do, and I did.  But it does take getting used to because it doesn't feel like "every other car".  I haven't driven an Escape Hybrid to comment, but every vehicle I have driven with the regen braking system is grabby in its brake feel and as I stated in the review, it's the biggest dynamic drawback of what's otherwise a pretty agreeable machine.

That's probably the right perspective.  After getting used to driving the Escape Hybrid, when I drive our other car it seems the brakes are very late to actuate, and take somewhat more pedal pressure.  Seems to me, given the other engineering accomplishments in them, this difference would be easy to engineer out of hybrid brakes.  The "lump" between regenerative and mechanical braking should be possible to solve also.

[Ex-airbalancer]

I go from a Prius to a 3 series then a pickup truck, I do not notice any difference in braking

[EV-Light]

That Camry is fast!


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ArticSteve]

I'm referring to the way the CVT is programmed to behave.  Subaru and Honda seem to try to make their CVTs behave more like a traditional automatic -- Subie especially by building in the 'stepped' sensation of changing gears.  The rubber-band feel of the CVTs attached to the Toyotas I've experienced is miserable. 


Have you driven a 2012 and up Camry Hybrid?  They are absent any programing.  100% mechanical.  The Power Split Device is a simple planetary gear set with approximately 15 pieces including the final drive.  It's not a snowmobile style transmission with electronic actuators controlling the pulleys via a computer that you find in Honda, Nissan, Subaru, et al.   They suck in comparison.

Since Cadure quoted Car and Driver V6 Legacy test here is what they say about it.

Highs and Lows

Highs:

Spacious cabin, clean styling, standard all-wheel drive.

Lows:

Rubbery CVT, abrupt throttle tip-in, slow and heavy


http://www.caranddriver.com/photo-gallery/2015-subaru-legacy-36r-limited-test-review



You display extreme bias towards Toyota Hybrids.  Like AB says their brakes don't "grab".   It just doesn't take much pedal pressure as in vacuum assisted cars.

Cadure proved me wrong as to my comment about the Camry Hybrid being faster than the Legacy v6.  I drove the 2015 V6 and was taken back by how slow it was for a V6 as I have driven a zillion V6 Camrys and Ravs.  Car and Driver has the 2015 Camry V6 @ 5.8 for the 0 to 60 which I think illustrates Car and Driver might not have the most "real world" times.  Regardless, that Subaru CVT didn't help with the sense of acceleration.

C/D TEST RESULTS:

 Zero to 60 mph: 5.8 sec
 Zero to 100 mph: 14.3 sec
 Zero to 120 mph: 21.6 sec
 Rolling start, 5-60 mph: 6.1 sec
 Standing ¼-mile: 14.3 sec @ 100 mph

http://www.caranddriver.com/toyota/camry

[Noto]

Why would anyone detune a cvt so it simulates non-cvt transmissions?

I'm assuming you've not driven the new Accord/CRV, nor the Subaru Legacy/Outback?  There's no loss of performance as a result of the D-step programming, it feels immensely more natural, and the car is more responsive as a result.  There's also no loss in fuel economy.  Give one a try and you'll see that this was an EXCELLENT feat of engineering.

Yet another article calling out non-linear brake feel in a hybrid.

The steering/brakes on the RX400h are awful.  There's no sugarcoating this one.  The steering is immensely heavy, provides no feedback, and is dead on-centre.  I hate it.  The brakes are worse, to the point of being downright scary.  Yes, I'm "used" to them now, but they do "grab, let go, grab" on occasion, ESPECIALLY under heavy braking.  The scary part is when you hit a bump in the road while braking - all of a sudden the regen braking stops working and the car lurches forward a bit.  Thereafter, you have to push that much harder on the pedal to get it to slow to the same extent.  This is fixed by lifting off the brake pedal and then reapplying (until you hit another bump).  Either way, braking distance is much longer unless the road is unbroken.  I dislike it very much.

Described here

[DriverJeff]

I'm referring to the way the CVT is programmed to behave.  Subaru and Honda seem to try to make their CVTs behave more like a traditional automatic -- Subie especially by building in the 'stepped' sensation of changing gears.  The rubber-band feel of the CVTs attached to the Toyotas I've experienced is miserable. 


Have you driven a 2012 and up Camry Hybrid?  They are absent any programing.  100% mechanical.  The Power Split Device is a simple planetary gear set with approximately 15 pieces including the final drive.  It's not a snowmobile style transmission with electronic actuators controlling the pulleys via a computer that you find in Honda, Nissan, Subaru, et al.   They suck in comparison.

You display extreme bias towards Toyota Hybrids.  Like AB says their brakes don't "grab".   It just doesn't take much pedal pressure as in vacuum assisted cars.

I don't display "extreme bias towards Toyota Hybrids."  I've referenced a considerable dislike for the driving sensation of the Priuses I've driven based on my experiences.  That includes the Prius, Prius c, Prius v on different occasions. 

I am intrigued by your praise for the Camry Hybrid (despite your extreme bias for all things Toyota ) and no, I haven't yet had an opportunity to drive one.  I looking through Tom's recent review of it, he echoes the sentiments here that it is a more lively machine than expected and that its CVT does not make the car moo and behave the way a Prius does.  Interesting.

He does reference the brakes, "The hybrid’s regenerative brakes are still mushy, but not nearly as grabby as yesteryear’s hybrids, and you get used to them very quickly."  Again, good to hear that maybe they're not as grabby -- but still clearly a different, if not inferior brake feel. 

I worry about the awareness of anyone who doesn't notice a difference going between a hybrid and non-hybrid in terms of brake feel. 

Oh, and for what it's worth, just this past weekend I was saying how I'd like to replace my wife's Mazda6 with a Prius since it makes good sense for our needs. 

[X-Traction]

Why would anyone detune a cvt so it simulates non-cvt transmissions?

I'm assuming you've not driven the new Accord/CRV, nor the Subaru Legacy/Outback?  There's no loss of performance as a result of the D-step programming, it feels immensely more natural, and the car is more responsive as a result.  There's also no loss in fuel economy.  Give one a try and you'll see that this was an EXCELLENT feat of engineering.

Yet another article calling out non-linear brake feel in a hybrid.

The steering/brakes on the RX400h are awful.  There's no sugarcoating this one.  The steering is immensely heavy, provides no feedback, and is dead on-centre.  I hate it.  The brakes are worse, to the point of being downright scary.  Yes, I'm "used" to them now, but they do "grab, let go, grab" on occasion, ESPECIALLY under heavy braking.  The scary part is when you hit a bump in the road while braking - all of a sudden the regen braking stops working and the car lurches forward a bit.  Thereafter, you have to push that much harder on the pedal to get it to slow to the same extent.  This is fixed by lifting off the brake pedal and then reapplying (until you hit another bump).  Either way, braking distance is much longer unless the road is unbroken.  I dislike it very much.

Described here

Sorry, anything that varies the engine rpm's from the ideal, whether to simulate what people are used to or not, is inherently inefficient.  If it's done with simulated sounds played through the sound system, then I have no problem with it other than it being ridiculous.

Your Lexus sounds like it should be taken off the road until the brake issues are resolved.  If they can't be, then Lexus should buy them back.  I trust you have reported this safety hazard to Transport Canada.  The Escape Hybrid does nothing like this, and it's a lowly Ford.

As for the steering, I recently drove a first-generation Highlander.  Maybe it's because it was older, but the on-center feel was very vague.  By comparison the Escape Hybrid's electric steering is precise and tight.  (I said "by comparison" because it ain't no sports car.)

[X-Traction]

I'm referring to the way the CVT is programmed to behave.  Subaru and Honda seem to try to make their CVTs behave more like a traditional automatic -- Subie especially by building in the 'stepped' sensation of changing gears.  The rubber-band feel of the CVTs attached to the Toyotas I've experienced is miserable. 


Have you driven a 2012 and up Camry Hybrid?  They are absent any programing.  100% mechanical.  The Power Split Device is a simple planetary gear set with approximately 15 pieces including the final drive.  It's not a snowmobile style transmission with electronic actuators controlling the pulleys via a computer that you find in Honda, Nissan, Subaru, et al.   They suck in comparison.

You display extreme bias towards Toyota Hybrids.  Like AB says their brakes don't "grab".   It just doesn't take much pedal pressure as in vacuum assisted cars.

I don't display "extreme bias towards Toyota Hybrids."  I've referenced a considerable dislike for the driving sensation of the Priuses I've driven based on my experiences.  That includes the Prius, Prius c, Prius v on different occasions. 

I am intrigued by your praise for the Camry Hybrid (despite your extreme bias for all things Toyota ) and no, I haven't yet had an opportunity to drive one.  I looking through Tom's recent review of it, he echoes the sentiments here that it is a more lively machine than expected and that its CVT does not make the car moo and behave the way a Prius does.  Interesting.

He does reference the brakes, "The hybrid’s regenerative brakes are still mushy, but not nearly as grabby as yesteryear’s hybrids, and you get used to them very quickly."  Again, good to hear that maybe they're not as grabby -- but still clearly a different, if not inferior brake feel. 

I worry about the awareness of anyone who doesn't notice a difference going between a hybrid and non-hybrid in terms of brake feel. 

Oh, and for what it's worth, just this past weekend I was saying how I'd like to replace my wife's Mazda6 with a Prius since it makes good sense for our needs.

Just wondering how brakes can be mushy and grabby at the same time.

[Noto]

Your Lexus sounds like it should be taken off the road until the brake issues are resolved.  If they can't be, then Lexus should buy them back.  I trust you have reported this safety hazard to Transport Canada.  The Escape Hybrid does nothing like this, and it's a lowly Ford.

It was reported (not by me).  A class-action suit was commenced (also not by me).  It was dismissed.  Case closed - Toyota has good lawyers

Mushy = feeling of the pedal (not feeling anything, ah, there's the brake point);
Grabby = non-linear brake power (brake...brake...BRAKE...brake...BRAKE...lurch forward...brake...stop)

[X-Traction]

Your Lexus sounds like it should be taken off the road until the brake issues are resolved.  If they can't be, then Lexus should buy them back.  I trust you have reported this safety hazard to Transport Canada.  The Escape Hybrid does nothing like this, and it's a lowly Ford.

It was reported (not by me).  A class-action suit was commenced (also not by me).  It was dismissed.  Case closed - Toyota has good lawyers

Mushy = feeling of the pedal (not feeling anything, ah, there's the brake point);
Grabby = non-linear brake power (brake...brake...BRAKE...brake...BRAKE...lurch forward...brake...stop)

So Transport Canada did not require a recall?  And the NHTSA in the US didn't either?  Seems strange.  It also seems strange Lexus would not address this.  Did you get any idea why nothing was done?  Were there insufficient accidents/deaths resulting from the problem?

[Noto]

So Transport Canada did not require a recall?  And the NHTSA in the US didn't either?  Seems strange.  It also seems strange Lexus would not address this.  Did you get any idea why nothing was done?  Were there insufficient accidents/deaths resulting from the problem?

No accidents caused by it.  It's just a weird feeling that owners quickly 'get used to'.  I just wish I didn't have to.

[chignectohead]

This is a pretty weak-sauce vehicle. And nowhere in the article does it mention that the AWD is a third 67 hp electric motor jammed onto the rear axle. Luckily, with a Camry engine and hybrid gubbins driving just the front wheels,  torque steer is unlikely to strike the unwary driver, especially with Toyota's "whoa, Betsy!" electronic nannies on the job.

So with a tiny battery pack to feed both the front and rear electric drive motors, 4005 lbs of road-hugging weight (compared to just 3555 for the Camry hybrid) such flashing acceleration as it does  flaunt increases the 0-60 time to 8.3 seconds and a 16.5 second quarter. That's no better than average  for a typical $40K iteration of the cute-ute sector. (All figures Car and Driver)

Add on a few hunks of sheet metal and extra welding to stiffen up the RAV4 body to what it should have been in the first place, flash pleather interior and the obligatory nightmare-driven snout design (get those Toyota designers off magic mushrooms, please!), and you get a pretty cynically-designed vehicle designed for real estate agents. $60 grand. Good Lord.

The Audi Q5 hybrid has 2 miles of pure EV range, instead of almost none; it has a proper quattro drivetrain with 8 speed automatic, none of this Lexus nonsense in AWD and CVT, rear heated seats, rear climate control, three way fold-down rear seats and pass-through, 19 inch wheels, better lumbar support etc. It also runs to 60 in 7.1 seconds. It is missing the various new electronic aids like auto cruise, rear blind spot warning and all that. I learned most of this from the Lexus website comparison tool! And the Audi actually looks like a vehicle rather than a nightmare, all for $2500 less. Need anyone wonder which will ride and handle better? Lexus claims leather seating on the NX300 on their website, but we know that's untrue. For this the Q5 will ding you about 20% in fuel mileage and the premium fuel requirement, but there are few real reviews to know for sure.

I wouldn't buy either vehicle, but let's be serious. The Audi seems like a much better deal. After that you have their legendary "reliability" to deal with, of course. But I think the Lexus is wildly over-priced for what you get.

[X-Traction]

Add on a few hunks of sheet metal and extra welding to stiffen up the RAV4 body to what it should have been in the first place, flash pleather interior and the obligatory nightmare-driven snout design (get those Toyota designers off magic mushrooms, please!), and you get a pretty cynically-designed vehicle designed for real estate agents. $60 grand.

Magic mushroom eaters probably would choose more organic forms.  I suspect Lexus is employing disgraced former vacuum cleaner stylists.