Topic: Monday Rant: You Don't Need Synthetic Oil

[tpl]

My oily 2 cents.  I've used synthetic since the late '70s.  The difference with Rabbits of the day in starting at -10 was amazing.  In both ease and NOISE!  Most of the engine wear takes place on startup especially in the cold.   I only got a block heater this year after last winter.  This was to cut warmup time in the cabin not to deal with a starting problem.

My oil change intervals are now 10k to 14k and the oil still looks good.  Great saving in time and probably some $.

I made the mistake of putting synthetic in a new car at the 3k mark and it took to 80k for it to loosen up.  At 400k it was just hitting its stride and fuel consumption fell over its entire life. I'd wait until at least 10k now to start synthetic but if the manufacturers spec it, stick with it.

Cheers,
John M.

I remember when cars could be like that. Modern manufacturing and the materials use for piston rings together with the surface treatment of the bores seems to have cured it although my BMW didn't stop burning a tiny bit of oil until 20k km or so.   Tribology rules!

[RoadRageous]

two high-mileage cars : a 1990 Celica 1.8l with about 200k, and a 2002 protege with 160k.

That's just broken in!

The Scoob quite a ways back

Yep, that was the cmileage when I bought them.  I didn't even bother looking at the mileage after a while.   
Good job on the MB.

[Ex-airbalancer]

After the last to winters were it was in the -30s , I run  synthetic oil

[ArticSteve]

@ 570 MILES    tonight I rid my ultra fantastic    3.7 of that pissey 5W20 Ford factory fill.  In went Mobil One 0W40 Eurospec ..... oh what a feeling. 

Interestingly, the factory oil filter is a one off from FoMoCo not available thru Ford dealers.  The factory filter appeared superior from a glance to the MotorCraft unit; taller and more "holes" and I'd buy it if available.

Nice touch that the Mobil One 1 litre bottle fit nicely in the Ford filler hole for complete draining. 

[mnztr]

Why so quick to change the factory fill on a new car? I assume it is conventional oil that is put in so the engine can break in properly. That is why there is a special extra capacity filter because the engine is gonna be shedding much more metal when new then when it is broken in. ...

@ 570 MILES    tonight I rid my ultra fantastic    3.7 of that pissey 5W20 Ford factory fill.  In went Mobil One 0W40 Eurospec ..... oh what a feeling. 

Interestingly, the factory oil filter is a one off from FoMoCo not available thru Ford dealers.  The factory filter appeared superior from a glance to the MotorCraft unit; taller and more "holes" and I'd buy it if available.

Nice touch that the Mobil One 1 litre bottle fit nicely in the Ford filler hole for complete draining.

[mnztr]

I used to use mobil M1 on just about everything, but I found on some cars it was the most likely to be consumed. I kinda found this out by accident when 5W50 syntec was on sale and I needed to change the oil on my motorcycle. I tried the Syntec and it was MUCH better especially the gearshift was much smoother, so that is what I have use since then. And I use whatever synthetic is on sale for my card 5 or 0W40 grade.

[Triple Bob]

Why so quick to change the factory fill on a new car? I assume it is conventional oil that is put in so the engine can break in properly.

This is a another commonly spread myth, many cars come from the factory filled with synthetic these days, you don't need conventional oil to break in an engine.

http://www.pennzoil.ca/learn-about-motor-oil/synthetic-oil/

[ronniefung]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

I'm not trying to be rude about your knowledge, I'm just saying that 'low compression street use' doesn't really mean anything, a little old lady doing lots of small journeys in the Winter and never revving past 3K is probably doing more damage than a young guy with a heavy right foot.  Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from.

I totally see what you are saying but this stood out to me: "Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from".

Do you think the manual from a Florida VW recommends a different oil?

And do you truly believe that everything in the manual is solely there because the engineers say it must be so? Do you think that any deviation from an owner's manual will cause harm to your car, just because it's written in an owner's manual? A lot of policy and service care and instructions exist to cover their collective asses. It's not always just about what's needed or best for a car.

I don't advocate going willy-nilly and disregarding all information and suggestions in an owner's manual, but I will say that the manual is not always what's best or is not always the only option.

Don't get all out of joint about it, Canada IS a harsh environment for cars, period.  I don't need a manual to tell me that.  If you want to use the wrong oil for your NA, slow driven, non warranty car (lol) that's up to you, changing it every 5K isn't exactly saving you any money.

I do however believe in lab results, something you seem to trust to mates and intuition.  Horses for courses.

I think you're misinterpreting me and reading into what I'm saying.

I'm not getting bent out of shape by the subject matter. I'm getting a little bent due to your responses and the not-so-thinly veiled jabs you're taking.

So now I don't believe in lab results? My point is that there are things the dealer recommends in manuals and service bulletins that aren't necessarily what's required to keep a car running in top condition. A lot of it is to cover their collective asses.

I don't trust the care of a car to "mates and intuition" over lab results.

[ronniefung]

For anyone that's interested, I will be writing a counter rant to this article on why you SHOULD run synthetic in your car.

Yes, that goes against what I put in my Mum's old Jetta. But I do believe that any modern car (cars made in the last few years) should be running synthetic.

No, the article will not be based upon "mates and intuition", nor will it ignore lab results. What it WILL do is hopefully educate and inform some of you with something you may or may not have considered.

We're not here to preach nor are we here to be the be-all-end-all car authority (obviously). We at Autos are just the same as many of you. Passionate car lovers. We just happen to have the privilege of getting some really cool access to vehicles and exposure to the engineers and the inside track on a lot of technology and that sort of thing.

Like all of you users, we all come from different automotive backgrounds. I got my start with my first car in 1998 and did my first engine re and re in 1999. I then proceeded to get a job working at car and motorbike shops until 2005 when I switched over to full-time photography. I continued to work on cars and bikes but no longer did it for a living.

I've had the benefit of seeing first-hand what happens to poorly maintained vehicles or vehicles that run the incorrect fluids for its climate or driving conditions. It's kind of cool to tear down an engine with less than 1,200 km on it that's been running the incorrect oil for its modifications. He was running what the manual recommended against what we advised him to due his mods. There are also countless stories of people switching over to a synthetic in an older engine and running into issues.

[ronniefung]

Is autos.ca counselling its readership to forgo manufacturer requirements/specification for synthetic oil or just asserting that it's not mechanically required?

Interesting position either way.

Next up:  They will be telling us that its better to replace one poor performing wiper blade vs. both.

Next week:  If you turn left a lot on your commute, only replace your right front tire!

Save money, commute in circles!

Gentlemen... what we ran in my mum's old Jetta didn't have much to do with saving 10 dollars every six months, but more to do with what her car needed and what it didn't need.

[tortoise]

@ 570 MILES    tonight I rid my ultra fantastic    3.7 of that pissey 5W20 Ford factory fill.  In went Mobil One 0W40 Eurospec ..... oh what a feeling. 

Why the big jump in viscosity?  I run 5W-20 in both my cars, one of which is a Ford 4.6 with 275,000 km and neither burn any oil.

[ArticSteve]

Why so quick to change the factory fill on a new car? I assume it is conventional oil that is put in so the engine can break in properly.

Don't be ridiculous     Ford installs the cheapest CAFE driven 5W20 Group 2 oil they can source.  Has nothing to do with "break in".  I think for the first 200 km I limited the revs to 6000 rpm.  It just recently started getting warm here so I dare not waited.  Ford installed a oil temperature gauge so I found that on hot days it would creep towards high.  I took it out this very warm am to look at some trees in the hinterland and I hammered it pretty good and subjectively I thought the needle stayed lower.

That is why there is a special extra capacity filter because the engine is gonna be shedding much more metal when new then when it is broken in. ...


It's not a "special extra capacity filter".  It's simply an example of the randomness and dysfunction of most car manufacturers when it comes to lubricants.  The factory in Dearborn sources a filter for X motor from the lowest cost supplier while the Sales & Distribution Arm of Ford sources a completely different one and markets it under the Motorcraft brand for the maximum mark up.

And BTW, you'll like this:  as the engine "breaks in" the mpg will increase .....   complete BS.   

[ArticSteve]

@ 570 MILES    tonight I rid my ultra fantastic    3.7 of that pissey 5W20 Ford factory fill.  In went Mobil One 0W40 Eurospec ..... oh what a feeling. 

Why the big jump in viscosity?  I run 5W-20 in both my cars, one of which is a Ford 4.6 with 275,000 km and neither burn any oil.

I assume you aren't continually revving the motor to 6500 rpm or even occasionally catching the fuel cutoff rpm @ 7000. 

Unlike many of the Mobil Ones, Mobil One 0W40 Eurospec is a true PAO Group 4 oil.  It's "40" is more like a conventional "30".

The CAFE driven Ford 5W20 is a generic all season, bottom of the barrel motor oil, which is fine for the average automatic that shifts @ 3500 rpm all day long.  Even Mobil One 0W20, a Group 3, would be too "thin" for my purposes.  I buy that for my son's 2014 RDX which is just a typical all season slugmobile.

My recent P Car used 20W50 Group 2.  Now that is a thick oil.

One April 29th I paid $7.43 for the 0W40  and $7.60 for the 0W20  (liter)

This AM I bought another 2 cases of 0w40 for $8.35    and 1 case of 0W20 for $8.33  (liter)

So the Bank of Canada says inflation in check @ less than 2% annually .....   

[tortoise]

I don't think the truck ever sees more than 3000 rpm.  The 5, MAYBE 5000, though it does rev high at highway speeds, 3500 @ 120.

[blur911]

I used to use mobil M1 on just about everything, but I found on some cars it was the most likely to be consumed. I kinda found this out by accident when 5W50 syntec was on sale and I needed to change the oil on my motorcycle. I tried the Syntec and it was MUCH better especially the gearshift was much smoother, so that is what I have use since then. And I use whatever synthetic is on sale for my card 5 or 0W40 grade.

Castrol Syntec is not a motorcycle oil, it's not approved by JATO for use in a wet clutch environment.  What kind of clutch is in your bike?
Random oil selection is probably not the way to go.

Edit: I see it's a Ducati, you might be ok

[Triple Bob]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

I'm not trying to be rude about your knowledge, I'm just saying that 'low compression street use' doesn't really mean anything, a little old lady doing lots of small journeys in the Winter and never revving past 3K is probably doing more damage than a young guy with a heavy right foot.  Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from.

I totally see what you are saying but this stood out to me: "Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from".

Do you think the manual from a Florida VW recommends a different oil?

And do you truly believe that everything in the manual is solely there because the engineers say it must be so? Do you think that any deviation from an owner's manual will cause harm to your car, just because it's written in an owner's manual? A lot of policy and service care and instructions exist to cover their collective asses. It's not always just about what's needed or best for a car.

I don't advocate going willy-nilly and disregarding all information and suggestions in an owner's manual, but I will say that the manual is not always what's best or is not always the only option.

Don't get all out of joint about it, Canada IS a harsh environment for cars, period.  I don't need a manual to tell me that.  If you want to use the wrong oil for your NA, slow driven, non warranty car (lol) that's up to you, changing it every 5K isn't exactly saving you any money.

I do however believe in lab results, something you seem to trust to mates and intuition.  Horses for courses.

I think you're misinterpreting me and reading into what I'm saying.

I'm not getting bent out of shape by the subject matter. I'm getting a little bent due to your responses and the not-so-thinly veiled jabs you're taking.

So now I don't believe in lab results? My point is that there are things the dealer recommends in manuals and service bulletins that aren't necessarily what's required to keep a car running in top condition. A lot of it is to cover their collective asses.

I don't trust the care of a car to "mates and intuition" over lab results.

And do you truly believe that everything in the manual is solely there because the engineers say it must be so? Do you think that any deviation from an owner's manual will cause harm to your car, just because it's written in an owner's manual?

not-so-thinly veiled jabs

 

Not once did I mention reading the manual.  I'm just stating fact and common sense.  If BMW say my car needs synthetic oil due to the nature of the engine and the harsh environment, who am I to argue.  They obviously know more about the engine than I do.  Hell, I'm quite sure you know significantly more about engines than I do.  I do know oil though.

 

[tooscoops]

don't worry about getting bent out of shape ronnie... it was an opinion piece that got differing opinions and racked up the clicks on the site... did it's job! as a salesman, i totally get what you are saying.

i think everyone is somewhat right on their opinions... because when it comes to this stuff, there are so many options and different scenarios.

anyway, i have never heard of someone having their engine blow up for using a high grade synthetic... i have heard of them blowing when the oil is crap or not kept up... so it's a question of better to spend and be (more) sure, or cheap out...

the obvious answer is somewhere in the middle. thanks for that link someone posted back there... lots of verbage, but very cool.

[mixmanmash]

@ 570 MILES    tonight I rid my ultra fantastic    3.7 of that pissey 5W20 Ford factory fill.  In went Mobil One 0W40 Eurospec ..... oh what a feeling. 

Why the big jump in viscosity?  I run 5W-20 in both my cars, one of which is a Ford 4.6 with 275,000 km and neither burn any oil.

I assume you aren't continually revving the motor to 6500 rpm or even occasionally catching the fuel cutoff rpm @ 7000. 

Unlike many of the Mobil Ones, Mobil One 0W40 Eurospec is a true PAO Group 4 oil.  It's "40" is more like a conventional "30".

The CAFE driven Ford 5W20 is a generic all season, bottom of the barrel motor oil, which is fine for the average automatic that shifts @ 3500 rpm all day long.  Even Mobil One 0W20, a Group 3, would be too "thin" for my purposes.  I buy that for my son's 2014 RDX which is just a typical all season slugmobile.

My recent P Car used 20W50 Group 2.  Now that is a thick oil.

One April 29th I paid $7.43 for the 0W40  and $7.60 for the 0W20  (liter)

This AM I bought another 2 cases of 0w40 for $8.35    and 1 case of 0W20 for $8.33  (liter)

So the Bank of Canada says inflation in check @ less than 2% annually .....   

Good choice on the 0W40.  I ran it in my Protege almost since brand new and it has over 338k kms before I gave it to the new owner a couple of weeks ago.  No consumption issues.  I once ran in to consumption issues around the 200k km mark, but after changing the PCV valve, it went away.

[mnztr]

That is not at ALL what the link said, this is a cut and paste from the link:

Again, there’s no manufacturer we’re aware of that makes this recommendation. Mercedes, Porsche, Corvette, some Cadillacs, Volkswagen, Hyundai and many other manufacturers’ cars come from the factory with synthetic oil.


Ford is not on that list, and why would they say anything about it. The factory fill with the oil that does the job, install a special filter and tell you when to change it. It is unlikely to have any major negative effect, but why do you think they put a special filter. Changing early may not have any major negative effect, but it certainly won't have a POSITIVE effect.

Why so quick to change the factory fill on a new car? I assume it is conventional oil that is put in so the engine can break in properly.

This is a another commonly spread myth, many cars come from the factory filled with synthetic these days, you don't need conventional oil to break in an engine.

http://www.pennzoil.ca/learn-about-motor-oil/synthetic-oil/

[marcus_go]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.


I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

I'm not trying to be rude about your knowledge, I'm just saying that 'low compression street use' doesn't really mean anything, a little old lady doing lots of small journeys in the Winter and never revving past 3K is probably doing more damage than a young guy with a heavy right foot.  Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from.

I totally see what you are saying but this stood out to me: "Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from".

Do you think the manual from a Florida VW recommends a different oil?

And do you truly believe that everything in the manual is solely there because the engineers say it must be so? Do you think that any deviation from an owner's manual will cause harm to your car, just because it's written in an owner's manual? A lot of policy and service care and instructions exist to cover their collective asses. It's not always just about what's needed or best for a car.

I don't advocate going willy-nilly and disregarding all information and suggestions in an owner's manual, but I will say that the manual is not always what's best or is not always the only option.

Don't get all out of joint about it, Canada IS a harsh environment for cars, period.  I don't need a manual to tell me that.  If you want to use the wrong oil for your NA, slow driven, non warranty car (lol) that's up to you, changing it every 5K isn't exactly saving you any money.

I do however believe in lab results, something you seem to trust to mates and intuition.  Horses for courses.

I think you're misinterpreting me and reading into what I'm saying.

I'm not getting bent out of shape by the subject matter. I'm getting a little bent due to your responses and the not-so-thinly veiled jabs you're taking.

So now I don't believe in lab results? My point is that there are things the dealer recommends in manuals and service bulletins that aren't necessarily what's required to keep a car running in top condition. A lot of it is to cover their collective asses.

I don't trust the care of a car to "mates and intuition" over lab results.

I disagree with this. Case in point was when VW introduced the new Common Rail TDIs around 2004 aka Pumpe Duse. Those engines had specific oil requirements or else engine damage could occur to the camshaft/lifters. I remember talking to an owner at the dealer around 2007-2008 who had damaged his engine by using non-specified oil. He was on the hook as it was not covered under warranty. VW soon started sending out stickers to all TDI owners to be placed on the engine cover to warn them of engine damage if the specified oils were not used.

Also the new diesels with particulate filters have stringent oil recommendations. Do you really think ignoring a manufacturer TSB bulletin on oil is wise considering the high cost of the current emissions equipment? A particulate filter can cost many thousands of dollars to replace.

I agree that the dealer often recommends more servicing that is necessary but the manufacturer bulletins and TSBs should most definitely be adhered to.