Topic: Monday Rant: You Don't Need Synthetic Oil

[Triple Bob]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

[Solstice2006]

All of the cars we own use/require synthetic oil. But I've spent most of my driving life with a car that required it, so it is for me normal. I remember synthetic used to cost 7 $/litre.....now the same is 9 $ US/litre. Multiply that by 7 and it adds up. Good thing the oil change intervals are long.

The 2.5L engine uses approx 4.5L, 5L should be more than enough.  How are the intervals long?  4 months or 8k, as per Mazda.

http://www.mazda.ca/MciWeb/pdf/parts/en/Mazda3Maintenance.pdf

[ronniefung]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

[mlin32]

All of the cars we own use/require synthetic oil. But I've spent most of my driving life with a car that required it, so it is for me normal. I remember synthetic used to cost 7 $/litre.....now the same is 9 $ US/litre. Multiply that by 7 and it adds up. Good thing the oil change intervals are long.

The 2.5L engine uses approx 4.5L, 5L should be more than enough.  How are the intervals long?  4 months or 8k, as per Mazda.

http://www.mazda.ca/MciWeb/pdf/parts/en/Mazda3Maintenance.pdf

Oh, I was talking about the BMW X3 I used to have with the 2,5 litre M54 engine (a jewel). That, and the N52 in the 325i my mother still has both have a 6,5 litre oil capacity.

I ran the Mazda3 right up to 20k km before the first oil change and that was covered as a goodwill/courtesy gesture by the Mazda dealer with new cars. US and EU models have an option for a "flexible", primative condition % based oil change interval programmed into the vehicle. I don't plan to do another oil change before I sell the car (at 40% now).

[Triple Bob]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

[HeliDriver]

 

Why would you even take the chance? I wait for oil to go on sale and stock up. I last bought a couple of 5L jugs of VW-approved Castrol Syntec on sale at Cdn Tire for $26 each. So for barely over $5/L, I get decent oil that's actually approved by the manufacturer for my car. Yes, I know I could also get dino oil on sale somewhere for maybe a buck or two less per litre, but seriously, why screw around to save maybe ten bucks per oil change?

[ronniefung]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

[mlin32]

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I don't ever buy oil from the dealer. I have stuck with the Castrol 0W-30 (the one from Germany, LL-01) since we've had the BMWs about 9-10 years ago. There is one US retailer that carries it (Autozone) so it has been a consistent choice of product and vendor for me; prices have just increased 50% over the years. Once I bought the Pentosin 5W-30 (BMW LL-04) for the 325i and that worked well, but it is difficult to procure from O'Reilly Auto so I dropped that.

[Triple Bob]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

I'm not trying to be rude about your knowledge, I'm just saying that 'low compression street use' doesn't really mean anything, a little old lady doing lots of small journeys in the Winter and never revving past 3K is probably doing more damage than a young guy with a heavy right foot.  Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

I'm not trying to be rude about your knowledge, I'm just saying that 'low compression street use' doesn't really mean anything, a little old lady doing lots of small journeys in the Winter and never revving past 3K is probably doing more damage than a young guy with a heavy right foot.  Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from.

Car manuals aren't written by engineers, they're written by lawyers....

[LimitedSlip]

Most ALL Canadians should use Synthetic Oil ... -40Deg <> +40Deg
especially those who like Boxer Engines !!

[tpl]

Is there a single FGC of any flavour that does not specify an oil that will turn out to be only available as a synthetic?    MB229. BMW LL01, VW 502-507  The ACEA codes for most of these are defined as being for cars with extended oil drain intervals and of course the diesels with particulate filters and Adblue are even more strict on what may come out of the exhaust port.
 Plus of course the more exotic oils such as the one for the M3  and I presume for some other exotic cars.

With CAFE going the way it is I would think that even 0.1 mpg extra that can be claimed for more slippery oil would be demanded by the manufacturers.

[Northernridge]

Is autos.ca counselling its readership to forgo manufacturer requirements/specification for synthetic oil or just asserting that it's not mechanically required?

Interesting position either way.

[ronniefung]

Is autos.ca counselling its readership to forgo manufacturer requirements/specification for synthetic oil or just asserting that it's not mechanically required?

Interesting position either way.

I can't speak for Justin, but I will say that for my family members' naturally aspirated non-high-performance cars (not covered under warranty), I am ok with using a high-grade non-synthetic as long as the oil is changed every 5,000 km or less.

If your warranty is still valid and the manual calls for synthetic, I would counsel common sense.

[ronniefung]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

I'm not trying to be rude about your knowledge, I'm just saying that 'low compression street use' doesn't really mean anything, a little old lady doing lots of small journeys in the Winter and never revving past 3K is probably doing more damage than a young guy with a heavy right foot.  Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from.

I totally see what you are saying but this stood out to me: "Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from".

Do you think the manual from a Florida VW recommends a different oil?

And do you truly believe that everything in the manual is solely there because the engineers say it must be so? Do you think that any deviation from an owner's manual will cause harm to your car, just because it's written in an owner's manual? A lot of policy and service care and instructions exist to cover their collective asses. It's not always just about what's needed or best for a car.

I don't advocate going willy-nilly and disregarding all information and suggestions in an owner's manual, but I will say that the manual is not always what's best or is not always the only option.

[Triple Bob]

I use synthetics because all my cars see track use. If it was a naturally aspirated street car that never saw track use, I'd do with regular oil.

I go with synthetics for any turbo car, regardless of street or track because of how hot things get. The constant extreme heat cycling that happens on a turbo street car begs for any additional protection.

What if it was a German brand NA car that never saw track use, and the manufacturer called for synthetic only?

That's a great question. My mum asked the same question with her 2.5L Jetta, as her manual called for the same thing. Yarkony and I just discussed this and we've both come to the conclusion that regular oil is just fine. VW calls for the oil because they make the money from it. I believe they also call for a weight that's not very common at all, making you have to go to the dealer for it.

The way I look at it—and engine is an engine is an engine (when we're talking about standard consumer non-high-po cars). VW's engines aren't unicorns. They're just a standard piston engine, made up of the same type of parts that the majority of other cars are.

We used regular oil in her car, and all her Jettas before that one and we never had anything go wrong with any of the engines, sensors and everything else, not so much.... hhehehe.

So to sum up, I don't see any problem with going with a regular oil in that car, but I DO see a benefit with going with a synthetic for extreme temperatures, hot and cold.

For a small car like the Mazda 3, the skyactive engine is high compression I believe, so you need 0W-20 for that.  For BMW/VW, they will void your warranty if you use non-syn.  So yes, it 'might' be fine, but you risk not having you engine covered.  Not worth the few extra dollars IMHO.

Also you don't have to buy oil from the dealer, so they don't make money from all oil changes, you can buy VW/BMW spec oil from canadian tire.  I think you are simplifying the engine tech to say that dino oil will be fine, what do you know that the engine designers don't know?

I wasn't thinking about the warranty part of the oil question. I was addressing the mechanical part of it. If they require it for the warranty, then it's an obvious no-brainer. I'm not that foolish. I agree with you, it's not worth the extra few dollars.

What do I know about engine tech? For low-compression engines that only see regular street use? I've seen more than my fair share of torn down engines while rebuilding them and I can only speak from experience when I say regular oil is fine for street use in a regular mass-market low-performance car.

I don't know more than any BMW/VW engineer, not even close to 10 per cent of what they know about engines. I do know a fair bit about marketing and the ways manufacturers try to squeeze more money out of customers, though.

Cheers!

I'm not trying to be rude about your knowledge, I'm just saying that 'low compression street use' doesn't really mean anything, a little old lady doing lots of small journeys in the Winter and never revving past 3K is probably doing more damage than a young guy with a heavy right foot.  Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from.

I totally see what you are saying but this stood out to me: "Canada is a harsh environment, the engineers know what the engine needs, regardless of where you buy it from".

Do you think the manual from a Florida VW recommends a different oil?

And do you truly believe that everything in the manual is solely there because the engineers say it must be so? Do you think that any deviation from an owner's manual will cause harm to your car, just because it's written in an owner's manual? A lot of policy and service care and instructions exist to cover their collective asses. It's not always just about what's needed or best for a car.

I don't advocate going willy-nilly and disregarding all information and suggestions in an owner's manual, but I will say that the manual is not always what's best or is not always the only option.

Don't get all out of joint about it, Canada IS a harsh environment for cars, period.  I don't need a manual to tell me that.  If you want to use the wrong oil for your NA, slow driven, non warranty car (lol) that's up to you, changing it every 5K isn't exactly saving you any money.

I do however believe in lab results, something you seem to trust to mates and intuition.  Horses for courses.

[Snowman]

Is autos.ca counselling its readership to forgo manufacturer requirements/specification for synthetic oil or just asserting that it's not mechanically required?

Interesting position either way.

Next up:  They will be telling us that its better to replace one poor performing wiper blade vs. both.

[Triple Bob]

Is autos.ca counselling its readership to forgo manufacturer requirements/specification for synthetic oil or just asserting that it's not mechanically required?

Interesting position either way.

Next up:  They will be telling us that its better to replace one poor performing wiper blade vs. both.

Next week:  If you turn left a lot on your commute, only replace your right front tire!

Save money, commute in circles!

[tpl]

Is autos.ca counselling its readership to forgo manufacturer requirements/specification for synthetic oil or just asserting that it's not mechanically required?

Interesting position either way.

Next up:  They will be telling us that its better to replace one poor performing wiper blade vs. both.

Next week:  If you turn left a lot on your commute, only replace your right front tire!

Save money, commute in circles!

Because of living on a one way street I used to commute in what was topologically a circle.   Probably many people do.

[JohnM]

My oily 2 cents.  I've used synthetic since the late '70s.  The difference with Rabbits of the day in starting at -10 was amazing.  In both ease and NOISE!  Most of the engine wear takes place on startup especially in the cold.   I only got a block heater this year after last winter.  This was to cut warmup time in the cabin not to deal with a starting problem.

My oil change intervals are now 10k to 14k and the oil still looks good.  Great saving in time and probably some $.

I made the mistake of putting synthetic in a new car at the 3k mark and it took to 80k for it to loosen up.  At 400k it was just hitting its stride and fuel consumption fell over its entire life. I'd wait until at least 10k now to start synthetic but if the manufacturers spec it, stick with it.

Cheers,
John M.