Topic: Test Drive: 2014 Toyota Prius c

[X-Traction]

We see massively worse fuel economy in the RX400h in the winter than a normal car would suffer (drops from combined 28MPG in the summer to 18MPG in the winter...somewhere around those #s, don't quote me exactly).

But what would an equivalent non-hybrid get in the same circumstances? 

The Escape Hybrid drops from 38-40mpg in the summer to 36-37 in the winter.  Some of that is due to winter gas and winter tires, so the remaining difference can't be very much.  I don't see why the RX400h would be that much different.  One difference with your driving is that I do little city/short trip driving.  And some people may tend to drive for short trips in the winter when they might walk in the summer.

[rrocket]

The FR-S is selling well considering it's more of a niche car.

Is it? The last time I read, sales of the BR-Z and FR-S were underwhelming. Sorry, I don't have a link. 

For those who like CDN charts...it's selling better than many established sports cars...

[mixmanmash]

We see massively worse fuel economy in the RX400h in the winter than a normal car would suffer (drops from combined 28MPG in the summer to 18MPG in the winter...somewhere around those #s, don't quote me exactly).

But what would an equivalent non-hybrid get in the same circumstances? 

The Escape Hybrid drops from 38-40mpg in the summer to 36-37 in the winter.  Some of that is due to winter gas and winter tires, so the remaining difference can't be very much.  I don't see why the RX400h would be that much different.  One difference with your driving is that I do little city/short trip driving.  And some people may tend to drive for short trips in the winter when they might walk in the summer.

I think Vancouver is not representative of the cold temperatures that others would see in other parts of the country.  Those colder temps are going to affect the fuel economy a lot more, hybrid or not.  I would venture to guess that the % drop in fuel economy in winter is higher on a hybrid than a non-hybrid since the engine would run more frequently in winter than in summer.

[X-Traction]

We see massively worse fuel economy in the RX400h in the winter than a normal car would suffer (drops from combined 28MPG in the summer to 18MPG in the winter...somewhere around those #s, don't quote me exactly).

But what would an equivalent non-hybrid get in the same circumstances? 

The Escape Hybrid drops from 38-40mpg in the summer to 36-37 in the winter.  Some of that is due to winter gas and winter tires, so the remaining difference can't be very much.  I don't see why the RX400h would be that much different.  One difference with your driving is that I do little city/short trip driving.  And some people may tend to drive for short trips in the winter when they might walk in the summer.

I think Vancouver is not representative of the cold temperatures that others would see in other parts of the country.  Those colder temps are going to affect the fuel economy a lot more, hybrid or not.  I would venture to guess that the % drop in fuel economy in winter is higher on a hybrid than a non-hybrid since the engine would run more frequently in winter than in summer.

True, a hybrid won't shut down the engine at all if it's cold enough.  However engine shutdown is only a small part of a hybrid's efficiency.  It isn't shut down all that much, and if you use battery energy when the ICE is shut off, you need to run the engine that much more anyway to replenish that energy.  It still benefits from regeneration, smaller than normal ICE, CVT etc, which means a hybrid should still get significantly better mileage in the winter than an equivalent non-hybrid.  My Escape Hybrid gets much better mileage in the winter than non-hybrid Escapes get in the summer.

I speculate that hybrids are programmed to aggressively keep the catalytic converter hot, and the result would be lower emissions compared to non-hybrids that don't do anything special to keep the converter hot.  The downside is a mileage penalty for hybrids.

And though it has nothing to do with mileage, another advantage of these hybrids for really cold places is that they use an electric motor as a starter and the large hybrid battery for starting. So it's like having a hugely outsized starting system.

[ArticSteve]

True, a hybrid won't shut down the engine at all if it's cold enough

Most of your Toyota system hybrid comments are correct, but the above one is not.  Sure, the ICE runs more by about 15%-17% @ -10C low -5C high.

In Canada, the BC lower mainland is the primo location.

[X-Traction]

True, a hybrid won't shut down the engine at all if it's cold enough

Most of your Toyota system hybrid comments are correct, but the above one is not.  Sure, the ICE runs more by about 15%-17% @ -10C low -5C high.

In Canada, the BC lower mainland is the primo location.

It hasn't happened to me, but last winter there were hybrid owners on forums reporting that during their coldest weather (-40C), their hybrids never went into engine shut-off mode.  (This is why I think this is more a function of catalytic converter temperature than coolant temperature.  Because surely the coolant should stay at operating temps. for a while even at -40, while the exposed sheet metal converter could be expected to loose heat rapidly.)

Because our hybrid is not used much for city driving, it is exposed to the colder temperatures outside the lower mainland.

[ArticSteve]

 there were hybrid owners on forums reporting that during their coldest weather (-40C),

I'm surprised it would even start.

[Noto]

We see massively worse fuel economy in the RX400h in the winter than a normal car would suffer (drops from combined 28MPG in the summer to 18MPG in the winter...somewhere around those #s, don't quote me exactly).

But what would an equivalent non-hybrid get in the same circumstances? 
The Escape Hybrid drops from 38-40mpg in the summer to 36-37 in the winter.  Some of that is due to winter gas and winter tires, so the remaining difference can't be very much.  I don't see why the RX400h would be that much different.  One difference with your driving is that I do little city/short trip driving.  And some people may tend to drive for short trips in the winter when they might walk in the summer.

I think Vancouver is not representative of the cold temperatures that others would see in other parts of the country.  Those colder temps are going to affect the fuel economy a lot more, hybrid or not.  I would venture to guess that the % drop in fuel economy in winter is higher on a hybrid than a non-hybrid since the engine would run more frequently in winter than in summer.

Even with the frigid -40 days last winter, our RX had no problem starting.  The engine will shut off pretty quickly in the winter if you don't run the HVAC (i.e. fan and heater off).  If you hit "auto" for the climate control, that engine just won't shut off until maybe 10 minutes later, and at the slightest touch of the accelerator, it'll jump back on.  Remember, the RX400h is a beastly vehicle...it's a lot of mass to move, and has an outdated 3.3L V6...it'll use a lot more gas than the 2.5L 4-banger in the newer and lighter Escape hybrid.

And yes, GTA winters = colder than Vancouver's.

The RX400h doesn't drop to worse than the RX330 or RX350, but pretty equivalent.  The little time it does spend with the engine shut off is outweighed by the extra heft of the hybrid components.

We gladly sacrifice about 5-8MPG for warmth in the winter though.

[ArticSteve]

Even with the frigid -40 days last winter

What days are -40C in the GTA 

[Noto]

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/this-winter-is-miserable-meteorologists-have-confirmed-it-1.1707717

...fine, -20, but closer to -40 with windchill (which admittedly does not affect your car all that much).

[X-Traction]

there were hybrid owners on forums reporting that during their coldest weather (-40C),

I'm surprised it would even start.

Seriously?  Why do you say that?

Rather than being dependent on a little 12V lead-acid battery for starting, these hybrids use the comparably huge, 300V NiMH or Li-ion battery pack, powered through an electric motor rather than a flimsy little starter.  Which do you think would be more likely to fire up the ICE?

I've read there's a market for old Japanese hybrids in Siberia because of this cold weather starting reliability.

[X-Traction]

We see massively worse fuel economy in the RX400h in the winter than a normal car would suffer (drops from combined 28MPG in the summer to 18MPG in the winter...somewhere around those #s, don't quote me exactly).

But what would an equivalent non-hybrid get in the same circumstances? 
The Escape Hybrid drops from 38-40mpg in the summer to 36-37 in the winter.  Some of that is due to winter gas and winter tires, so the remaining difference can't be very much.  I don't see why the RX400h would be that much different.  One difference with your driving is that I do little city/short trip driving.  And some people may tend to drive for short trips in the winter when they might walk in the summer.

I think Vancouver is not representative of the cold temperatures that others would see in other parts of the country.  Those colder temps are going to affect the fuel economy a lot more, hybrid or not.  I would venture to guess that the % drop in fuel economy in winter is higher on a hybrid than a non-hybrid since the engine would run more frequently in winter than in summer.

Even with the frigid -40 days last winter, our RX had no problem starting.  The engine will shut off pretty quickly in the winter if you don't run the HVAC (i.e. fan and heater off).  If you hit "auto" for the climate control, that engine just won't shut off until maybe 10 minutes later, and at the slightest touch of the accelerator, it'll jump back on.  Remember, the RX400h is a beastly vehicle...it's a lot of mass to move, and has an outdated 3.3L V6...it'll use a lot more gas than the 2.5L 4-banger in the newer and lighter Escape hybrid.

And yes, GTA winters = colder than Vancouver's.

The RX400h doesn't drop to worse than the RX330 or RX350, but pretty equivalent.  The little time it does spend with the engine shut off is outweighed by the extra heft of the hybrid components.

We gladly sacrifice about 5-8MPG for warmth in the winter though.

Maybe it's time to ask those who claim hybrids get bad mileage in cold weather, to explain why that would be so. 

Yes, the ICE does not shut down as much, but the engines don't shut down at all in virtually all non-hybrids.

So do CVT's lose more efficiency than non-CVT's in cold weather?  Do hybrids have a lot more stuff to keep warm?  What's the problem?

[WRX_Pilot]

I think saying 'bad mileage' is a bit dramatic, it's only worse relative to itself in the summer.  And even then it only comes from slightly more idling in traffic in cold weather.  A hybrid in the winter is still getting better mileage than a conventional car any time of the year.

[X-Traction]

I think saying 'bad mileage' is a bit dramatic, it's only worse relative to itself in the summer.  And even then it only comes from slightly more idling in traffic in cold weather.  A hybrid in the winter is still getting better mileage than a conventional car any time of the year.

It's always a relief to hear a sensible comment about hybrids.  The "cold weather" charge is similar to the "highway mileage" and "battery replacement" myths.

Given that there are noticeable mileage penalties for winter gas and winter tires, the residual loss due to the extra idling must be very small.

Hybrids do have to keep the traction battery warm, but that's at cabin temperature rather than engine temperature, and the battery is partly inside.  There can't be much of a loss due to that.

[johngenx]

I know quite a few hybrid owners and they still record better than ICE-only fuel economy in the winter.

[me_2]

I know quite a few hybrid owners and they still record better than ICE-only fuel economy in the winter.

I agree

[mixmanmash]

I know quite a few hybrid owners and they still record better than ICE-only fuel economy in the winter.

I agree

Does that qualify as a hybrid or a range extended electric vehicle?

[me_2]

Does that qualify as a hybrid or a range extended electric vehicle?

On this specific example, my commute is usually done with battery only with warmer outside temperature. At -28C, it is kind of grey zone (EV vs hybrid) because the main battery still had energy available (8.5/10.5 kWh) but outside temp was way below the threshold set point temp., the ICE came on few minutes, burnt 0.25L on 2.5 km. Done with a Volt 2012, comfort set 23C, fan low speed 1 or 2. Draw more energy from the battery but keep the coolant for cabin exchanger above threshold point to avoid restart for ICE.

[ArticSteve]

Seriously?  Why do you say that?

Rather than being dependent on a little 12V lead-acid battery for starting, these hybrids use the comparably huge, 300V NiMH or Li-ion battery pack, powered through an electric motor rather than a flimsy little starter.  Which do you think would be more likely to fire up the ICE?


-40C is seriously fackin COLD!    I doubt a new gen Toyota Camry/Prius Hybrid would start at -40C without a block heater thinking the power split device would be frozen.

[ArticSteve]

I know quite a few hybrid owners and they still record better than ICE-only fuel economy in the winter.

They do but to they cost more and are significantly more complicated.  Completely computer controlled.  Artificial brake pressure.  Not for -40C use.   They are better suited to the BC lower mainland and southern Ontario.