Topic: Comparison Test: 2014 Mid-Size Sedans

[Jaeger]

The zoom zoom philosophy is not really about being fast at a green light, but being fast everywhere. Not having to slow down on that tight turn for example.

Surely it's not ONLY about that?  Sluggish accelleration and leisurely midrange response seem inconsistent with a 'zoom-zoom' concept to me. 

But as I said - power beyond the barely adequate level translates not only to merging and passing, but to basic driveability with a high passenger / cargo load.  A somnolent throttle response with a single driver is not going to improve with 3 additional passengers and their gear.  Or 4.  Which is kind of core mission objective for a midsize family sedan.

And sure - many will be fine with that.  But is it so hard to conceive that some might not?  Is having more than barely adequate power to accompany the otherwise excellent driving dynamics offered by the 6 as much of a fringe desire as some are making it out to be?  I hardly think of Camry and Accord buyers as horsepower nuts - and uplevel power has been available from them for a good long while now.  It might not have been needed when the Accord was roughly the size of the current Civic - but it certainly has its place today.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

All they do is look at sales numbers. For the Camry, the V6 only makes up 10% of sales. All they do at that point is see if that extra number of sales is worth the expense of the additional engine. Toyota is pretty flush and uses the same engine in quite a few products, so it makes sense for them.

Mazda is operating under considerable constraint. It looks like they couldn't make the case for the additional engine.  I don't think it will cost them all that many sales.

As has been noted, the higher CAFE requirements are going to mean that the remaining V6s and larger turbo engines in this class will likely be eliminated shortly in any event.

[Solstice2006]

The zoom zoom philosophy is not really about being fast at a green light, but being fast everywhere. Not having to slow down on that tight turn for example.

Surely it's not ONLY about that?  Sluggish accelleration and leisurely midrange response seem inconsistent with a 'zoom-zoom' concept to me. 

But as I said - power beyond the barely adequate level translates not only to merging and passing, but to basic driveability with a high passenger / cargo load.  A somnolent throttle response with a single driver is not going to improve with 3 additional passengers and their gear.  Or 4.  Which is kind of core mission objective for a midsize family sedan.

And sure - many will be fine with that.  But is it so hard to conceive that some might not?  Is having more than barely adequate power to accompany the otherwise excellent driving dynamics offered by the 6 as much of a fringe desire as some are making it out to be? I hardly think of Camry and Accord buyers as horsepower nuts - and uplevel power has been available from them for a good long while now.  It might not have been needed when the Accord was roughly the size of the current Civic - but it certainly has its place today.

Honda and Toyota are a lot bigger than Mazda.  They have had their V6 mills for a long time.  The previous 2 generations of the Mazda6 used Fords V6.  Since that is not available anymore, it leaves Mazda in a tight spot.  They are trying to find a partner.  They make their vehicles in Japan, so that adds to freight, and they have to worry about the dollar.. Mazda has released the CX-5, the 3, and the 6 as all new vehicles (not refreshes)  in the last 2 years.  Not bad for a small company, many larger companies don't even do that. 

To be more competitive, they need a turbo mill, I agree.  Will they offer it?  I hope so.  Will it deter me from buying one if they don't?  No.  A big problem is cash flow... 

[Jaeger]

All they do is look at sales numbers. For the Camry, the V6 only makes up 10% of sales. All they do at that point is see if that extra number of sales is worth the expense of the additional engine. Toyota is pretty flush and uses the same engine in quite a few products, so it makes sense for them.

Mazda is operating under considerable constraint. It looks like they couldn't make the case for the additional engine.  I don't think it will cost them all that many sales.

As has been noted, the higher CAFE requirements are going to mean that the remaining V6s and larger turbo engines in this class will likely be eliminated shortly in any event.

That may be the case.  But I'm pretty sure Toyota wouldn't be keen on losing the 10% of sales the V6 Camry brings in.  I'm not sure that the term "only" is a pragmatic adjective for the amount of cars that percentage represents.

Mazda has long been on the outside looking in when it comes to vehicle sales in the midsize segment.  Offering less than the competition in terms of engine options may well be the path to success.  Or not.

As for the more powerful engines of the competition being in danger of imminent elimination - I just don't see it.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

These are the changes to CAFE that the manufacturers will have to meet.

I took the Sonata as an example. The wheelbase is 110" and track is 62.9" for a footprint of 6919in² or 48ft². In 2012, it met the standard with 31mpg. By 2016, it has to hit 35mpg, by 2020, it has to hit 42mpg.

There are lots of ways to get there, like hybridization, but the cheapest, is just to cut power.

[Fobroader]

The Mazda deserves the smooth V6 and a nice 6spd manual out of the Accord coupe, then it would have an engine thats worthy of that chassis. The 4 banger is fine for a Mazda 3, but for a 6, no, never.

[dkaz]

Would the 173 HP 310 ft-lb torque Skyactiv-D be a good V6 alternative? The down low torque don't really do anything for the 0-60 times below:

Third gens:
2.2L I-4 Sky-D, 6MT - 7.8s
2.5L I-4 Sky-G, 6MT - 7.3s
2.5L I-4 Sky-G, 6AT - 7.5s

Second gens:
3.7L V6 G, 5AT - 6.0s
2.5L I-4 G, 5AT, 7.9s

First gens:
3.0L V6 G, 5MT - 6.3s
2.3L I-4 G, 5MT - 7.1s
2.3L I-4 Turbo-G, 6MT - 5.5s

But:
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2014-mazda6-skyactiv-d-wagon/

[Jaeger]

The Mazda deserves the smooth V6 and a nice 6spd manual out of the Accord coupe, then it would have an engine thats worthy of that chassis. The 4 banger is fine for a Mazda 3, but for a 6, no, never.

Indeed - that would be a pretty darned sweet combo.  Frankly, even the 4 pot in the Accord seems to have more oomph.

So SirO - how is the Mazda doing sales-wise in Canada? You seem to be the stats man around here.  Hyundai made a huge splash when they introduced the current Sonata - how is Mazda doing with the one motor plan so far?

[Solstice2006]

Doesn't really matter about the diesel, it's not coming anyway.  And diesels are always slower than their gas counterparts in the 0-60 tests.  Just like at the Golf numbers, same thing.  That's not what diesels are about...

[Fobroader]

Would the 173 HP 310 ft-lb torque Skyactiv-D be a good V6 alternative? The down low torque don't really do anything for the 0-60 times below:

Third gens:
2.2L I-4 Sky-D, 6MT - 7.8s
2.5L I-4 Sky-G, 6MT - 7.3s
2.5L I-4 Sky-G, 6AT - 7.5s

Second gens:
3.7L V6 G, 5AT - 6.0s
2.5L I-4 G, 5AT, 7.9s

First gens:
3.0L V6 G, 5MT - 6.3s
2.3L I-4 G, 5MT - 7.1s
2.3L I-4 Turbo-G, 6MT - 5.5s

But:
http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2014-mazda6-skyactiv-d-wagon/

Maybe....but thats not coming to the colonies so its a moot point.

[Jaeger]

Would the 173 HP 310 ft-lb torque Skyactiv-D be a good V6 alternative? The down low http://www.autoblog.com/2013/02/21/2014-mazda6-skyactiv-d-wagon/

Not easy to make a wagon look sexy, but hot damn.... 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

So SirO - how is the Mazda doing sales-wise in Canada? You seem to be the stats man around here.  Hyundai made a huge splash when they introduced the current Sonata - how is Mazda doing with the one motor plan so far?

I'm puzzled by sales of the 6. I expected it to be a big hit, but it's flat here and up decently in the US, but not gangbusters. It was up in February, but this past month it was down in the US year over year.

[Jaeger]

Thanks Sir O, I had also expected a bit better - hopefully things will pick up.

I see so few on the road, but they turn my head every single time. Particularly in red.

[Northernridge]

So SirO - how is the Mazda doing sales-wise in Canada? You seem to be the stats man around here.  Hyundai made a huge splash when they introduced the current Sonata - how is Mazda doing with the one motor plan so far?

I'm puzzled by sales of the 6. I expected it to be a big hit, but it's flat here and up decently in the US, but not gangbusters. It was up in February, but this past month it was down in the US year over year.

I think Mazda is a poor marketer. They have good product that's reasonably differentiated and yet they can't seem to think of anything compelling to say about their cars. Maybe they have some kind of distribution problems or other issues that are not obvious but I'd pin much of their sales woes on marketing.

[Solstice2006]

Thanks Sir O, I had also expected a bit better - hopefully things will pick up.

I see so few on the road, but they turn my head every single time. Particularly in red.

From those numbers it looks like the 6 is doing better than the previous generation did in the US.  Where as the last generation was made for North America.  Being a bigger car all around, bigger back seats, trunk, and of course the V6... So it's the Canadian numbers that are the most curious...

[Jaeger]

So SirO - how is the Mazda doing sales-wise in Canada? You seem to be the stats man around here.  Hyundai made a huge splash when they introduced the current Sonata - how is Mazda doing with the one motor plan so far?

I'm puzzled by sales of the 6. I expected it to be a big hit, but it's flat here and up decently in the US, but not gangbusters. It was up in February, but this past month it was down in the US year over year.

I think Mazda is a poor marketer. They have good product that's reasonably differentiated and yet they can't seem to think of anything compelling to say about their cars. Maybe they have some kind of distribution problems or other issues that are not obvious but I'd pin much of their sales woes on marketing.

I think that the merits of the product count for a lot more than marketing.  Hyundai didn't succeed with the current gen Sonata versus the previous gen by suddenly adopting a brilliant marketing strategy.  And Honda and Toyota haven't sat atop the midsize heap year after year by virtue of snappy commercials.  I'm not saying marketing doesn't matter - of course it does - it's just not the primary driving factor for sales success, IMO.  If you have a superb product that meets the demands of the market segment it's not going to tank because your marketing is only average.

[SaskSpecV]

So SirO - how is the Mazda doing sales-wise in Canada? You seem to be the stats man around here.  Hyundai made a huge splash when they introduced the current Sonata - how is Mazda doing with the one motor plan so far?

I'm puzzled by sales of the 6. I expected it to be a big hit, but it's flat here and up decently in the US, but not gangbusters. It was up in February, but this past month it was down in the US year over year.

I think Mazda is a poor marketer. They have good product that's reasonably differentiated and yet they can't seem to think of anything compelling to say about their cars. Maybe they have some kind of distribution problems or other issues that are not obvious but I'd pin much of their sales woes on marketing.

I think that's the critical factor here - Mazda has VERY limited marketing resources, and what little they have are poured into the 3 and CX-5 (which probably make the most sense, as those are likely the best-selling segments).  I can see why they don't spend much on marketing for the 2, 5, CX-9, etc as those vehicles are getting old in the tooth.  But the new 6 deserves more support - I suspect a majority of non-car enthusiasts don't even know the Mazda6 exists.  I'm certain the vast majority does not know that a new Mazda6 was recently released.

Or the alternative hypothesis - when is someone going to make the obligatory "rust" comment?  DAMN!  I just did!

[Ex-airbalancer]

How much money does Altima have on the hood in the States to be about the only one up in sales

[dirtyjeffer]

How much money does Altima have on the hood in the States to be about the only one up in sales

i was just about to ask the same thing...i know they re-did the Altima recently...is it THAT much different or is there thousands on the hood or 0%/84months offers flooding the market on that unit?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I think they only have a couple of grand and 2.9% financing at the moment. Not sure if there are targeted local offers.