Author Topic: TESLA Model III  (Read 524953 times)

Offline Fobroader

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1640 on: May 02, 2018, 01:29:56 pm »
Musk saying he wished there was no subsidies....

Musk clearly said, the fossil fuel industry should get no subsidies, which would then even out the playing field, therefore not requiring EV's to get benefits.
Reality : Trillion$ spent on oil and gas, and a small fraction spent on EV's.
One keeps tens of thousands of people employed and the other one is a discount for rich people to look at us proletariat all smugly about how much better their electric golf cart as compared to our ICE vehicles....I know which one I am behind.

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Lighten up Francis.....

Offline SKYMTL

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1641 on: May 02, 2018, 01:35:34 pm »
Cliff notes: Battery as some electronics appears to be industry standard. The rest of the car lags well behind.
Actual Cliff notes : Tesla 3 is next generation from motor, battery, suspension, effectively anything south of the door frame.

So basically:  buyers are TRUE beta testers. 

Online rrocket

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1642 on: May 02, 2018, 03:13:04 pm »
Model 3 sales 3,875 for April. Or about what was being promised for January levels.

So much for the 2000 per week promise....or even 1000....
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Online rrocket

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1643 on: May 02, 2018, 06:33:25 pm »
Tesla reports $785 million loss...nearly DOUBLE what it was in Q1 a year ago.

Says Model 3 for sure won't be profitable in Q2...maybe in Q3...for sure in Q4.  But Musk has lied (almost always) in the past...so who knows if that will be true.


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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1644 on: May 02, 2018, 08:26:36 pm »
Tesla reports $785 million loss...nearly DOUBLE what it was in Q1 a year ago.

Says Model 3 for sure won't be profitable in Q2...maybe in Q3...for sure in Q4.  But Musk has lied (almost always) in the past...so who knows if that will be true.

These misleading statements from Elon should have triggered a class action lawsuit a long time ago.

Actually, it's more like securities fraud because he's said this stuff during the quarterly meetings with investors.

Offline Guy

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1645 on: May 02, 2018, 08:45:32 pm »
Yet the stock is still at $300

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1646 on: May 03, 2018, 10:28:33 am »
This from Musk. Now bear in mind, you'd know (you're supposed to know) this stuff BEFORE production begins. To think they just went ahead ordering machines, implementing it in a virtual line, expense of setting it up, etc.

It's mind boggling this type of cluelessness.


One example would be, we have this – this is sort of ironically foolish – we had these fiberglass mats on the top of the battery pack. They're basically fluff. So, we tried to automate the placement and bonding of fluff to the top of the battery pack, which is ridiculous. So, we had fluffer bot, which was really an incredibly difficult machine to make work. Machines are not good at picking up pieces of fluff. Human hands are way better at doing that. And so, we had a super complicated machine using a vision system to try to put a piece of fluff on the battery pack.

One of the questions I asked was, do we actually need that? So, we tested a car with and without and found out that there was no change in the noise volume in the cabin. So, we actually had a part that was unnecessary. That was forced – line kept breaking down because fluffer bot would frequently just failed to pick up the fluff while put it in, like, a random location. So that was one of the silliest things I found.

And this still remains to be fixed in a lot of cases, but we're over-generalizing the design. So, for example, the car battery pack has a port for the front drive unit, which we then put a sealed blanking plate on. So essentially we punched a hole in it, then put a blanking plate over the hole and do that for all rear-drive unit cars, which is kind of crazy. We've added cost, we've added a manufacturing step, we've added a failure mode, and for something that is unnecessary. So, that is an example of something that's changed.



Offline Hannibalsmith

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1647 on: May 03, 2018, 10:36:10 am »
This from Musk. Now bear in mind, you'd know (you're supposed to know) this stuff BEFORE production begins. To think they just went ahead ordering machines, implementing it in a virtual line, expense of setting it up, etc.

It's mind boggling this type of cluelessness.


Sometimes you just need to do things and learn on the go...paralysis by analysis is a real thing.
I love it when a plan comes together.

Online rrocket

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1648 on: May 03, 2018, 06:08:54 pm »
This from Musk. Now bear in mind, you'd know (you're supposed to know) this stuff BEFORE production begins. To think they just went ahead ordering machines, implementing it in a virtual line, expense of setting it up, etc.

It's mind boggling this type of cluelessness.


Sometimes you just need to do things and learn on the go...paralysis by analysis is a real thing.
Not for stuff like this....

Offline johngenx

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1649 on: May 03, 2018, 06:14:09 pm »
Doug Demuro went on a rant about people on the internet railing on Tesla about panel fit, etc, pointing out the crap build quality of the BMW i3.  So, because BMW builds a $60K POS, we should be okay with Tesla not worrying about quality control either?  WTF?

Offline tenpenny

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1650 on: May 03, 2018, 06:18:22 pm »
If you’re gonna build cars, you kinda have to know how to do it.

Tesla seems like they figured they’d just wing it.


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Online rrocket

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1651 on: May 03, 2018, 06:39:54 pm »
If you’re gonna build cars, you kinda have to know how to do it.

Tesla seems like they figured they’d just wing it.


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This.

What made this annoying was all the crap they talked about other manufacturers and how they're dinosaurs, doing it wrong, etc. "We'll show them how it's done" attitude.

And none of it came to pass..and the industry dinosaurs are now saying "we told you so! ".

Offline conwelpic

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1652 on: May 06, 2018, 11:07:48 am »
May 6 - from ColdFusion "Testla's Problems - Elon's Sleeping in the Factory Again."

https://youtu.be/sU2YEgKVwkI
location:  Prince Edward County, Ontario

Offline johngenx

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1653 on: May 06, 2018, 11:26:46 am »
There's an arrogance in the tech world.  They like to think that they can apply the "code" world to anything and not only make it work, but make it better.  They point to Uber and say how they turned the taxi world on it's head with an app - just an app!  They like to think that anyone that chooses to work "inside" an industry must lack the ability to be a "disruptor" and obviously lacks talent or ability.  They don't believe that Toyota would be able to attract the best and brightest engineers, much less give them an environment where they would thrive.  The tech world is also accustomed to being given a pass when it comes to making money, and can't understand why a company like Toyota won't sell products at a massive loss.

Online rrocket

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1654 on: May 06, 2018, 11:47:55 am »
There's an arrogance in the tech world.  They like to think that they can apply the "code" world to anything and not only make it work, but make it better.  They point to Uber and say how they turned the taxi world on it's head with an app - just an app!  They like to think that anyone that chooses to work "inside" an industry must lack the ability to be a "disruptor" and obviously lacks talent or ability.  They don't believe that Toyota would be able to attract the best and brightest engineers, much less give them an environment where they would thrive.  The tech world is also accustomed to being given a pass when it comes to making money, and can't understand why a company like Toyota won't sell products at a massive loss.
But it's also the acolytes of such companies.  For example, I had not particular allegiance to any cell phone...because it's nothing more than a f*cking phone to me. So seeing the "issues" my buds had with iPhone vs Android...I went Android. Had my buds had fewer "issues" with Apple, I'd be using Apple.

 But it was the breathless fan boying from my Apple buds that was different. It was MORE than a phone to them...so they ignored all the flaws, shortcomings, price, etc  Basically, Apple got a pass...because it stood as something other than a phone.

In other normal products, no one would stand for so much compromise. But in certain tech products, the true believers will ignore all the shortcomings. And Tesla is such a company.

The other day, Musk (half joking) said he was going to start a candy company. The disciples of course went nuts. Because in their universe, somehow Tesla candy will be better than all other candy because tech + Musk.

It boggles the mind.

Online rrocket

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1655 on: May 06, 2018, 12:52:26 pm »
Tesla Model 3...by the numbers.

Here's the type of detailed, by the numbers accounting article the Tesla slappies never read IMO. This is using Tesla's own numbers from their financials. No smoke and mirrors..just simple math.


Tesla: The Model 3 At 5,000/Week Is Not Enough For Profitability


SUMMARY

We have further data on the Tesla Model 3 margins, as well as data-bearing Tesla promises.

This allows us to calculate marginal gross profits for the Tesla Model 3.

Having marginal gross profits for the Model 3 means we can try to establish whether Tesla's promise of profitability for Q3, Q4 2018 is realistic or not. It's not.

In writing this article, I had my own model for how negative Tesla's (TSLA) Model 3 gross margins were during Q1 2018. However, it’s also good practice to build on other’s work instead of introducing noise and new models at every turn (plus my conclusions were very near to those I am about to use).

First, Q2 2018

So, as a starting point for what I am about to describe, I am going to use Marginal Analysis’ work, as described in his article titled “Tesla's Q1 Revenue Beat Driven Largely By Accounting Changes, Model 3 Currently Loses $8K Per Unit”. The datum from that article which concerns us is:

The Model 3 produced ~$68 million in negative gross profit during Q1 2018.

Next, from Tesla’s Q1 2018 investor letter, we have the following promise:

If we execute according to our plans, we will at least achieve positive net income excluding non-cash stock based compensation in Q3 and Q4 and we expect to also achieve full GAAP profitability in each of these quarters. This is primarily based on our ability to reach Model 3 production volume of 5,000 units per week and to grow Model 3 gross margin from slightly negative in Q1 2018 to close to breakeven in Q2 and then to highly positive in Q3 and Q4. Ultimately, the growth of Model 3 and the profit associated with it will help us accelerate the transition to sustainable energy even faster.

We also need a Model 3 production estimate for Q2 2018:

Tesla started the quarter at 2,000/week and claims it’s able to produce that or more by now. Indeed, it says it will ramp to 5,000 by the end of the quarter. Let’s be generous to Tesla, and say that it will actually produce the Model 3 at an average of just 2,000/week over 12 weeks. Or 24,000 Model 3s.

“Generous?”, I hear you saying. “Tesla will be way ahead, and you’re just spreading FUD with your low ball estimate”, you’re certainly thinking.

Yes, generous, because with what I am going to say next, the higher Tesla thinks its Model 3 production during Q2 2018 will be, and which went into its “breakeven” pronouncement, the worse things look for Tesla. So in assuming “just” 2,000/week, I am actually doing Tesla a favor. Let’s see why.

You see, Tesla said it had a negative gross margin on the Model 3 during Q1 2018. It also said that its increased Model 3 production during Q2 2018 will enable it to reach breakeven. What does that mean? It means that the marginal contribution from the Q2 2018 Model 3 production in excess of the Q1 2018 Model 3 production will be enough to erase the entire negative gross margin contribution which the Model 3 had during Q1 2018. Putting it in an equation:

(Q2 2018 Model 3 production – Q1 2018 Model 3 production) * X - $68 million = $0 (breakeven).

X, of course, is the marginal gross margin Tesla expects from each marginal Model 3 unit during Q2. As you can see, the higher the Q2 2018 Model 3 production, the smaller Tesla thinks X is. Hence, above, when I project 24,000 Model 3 units, I’m being generous if Tesla actually thinks it will be producing more (since that would imply a lower marginal contribution per unit).

So, we take the equation above and what we have is:

X = 68 million / (24,000 – 8,180)X = $4,740 per unit, or a marginal gross margin of ~9% on a $52,000 Model 3.

Said another way, if Tesla produces 24,000 Model 3s during Q2 and each has a positive marginal gross margin of ~9%, then Tesla will reach breakeven gross margin on the Model 3 during Q2 2018.

This also has further meaning. 9% is the marginal gross profit rate on each Model 3 after the fixed costs are entirely diluted on the first 8,180 Model 3 units (the loss that the Model 3 produced during Q1 2018). There is no further fixed cost dilution after those first units if we take their loss as the base, so any further gross margin improvement needs to come from actually removing cost from the product and process.

Now, Q3 2018 (And Beyond)

So, let’s say everything went well for Tesla. Tesla produces the 24,000 Model 3s during Q2 2018, and thus reaches gross profit breakeven on the Model 3.

Tesla just erased a $68 million loss right there. Of course, things are still going ugly elsewhere, with Opex (operating expenses) up another $35 million, interest up another $10 million, $50 million in ZEV profits gone, etc, etc. But let’s just consider the gains, $68 million.

Tesla will then supposedly be entering Q3 2018 fully able to make 5,000 Model 3s/week. Let us say 60,000 over 12 weeks.

Tesla also starts from a gross profit breakeven, for which the first 24,000 Model 3s within those 60,000 are enough to achieve.

Now, if Tesla is only able to keep the 9% marginal gross profit on each of the 36,000 Model 3s, that would imply a further $170.7 million in gross profit. Versus Q1 2018, that would be a $170.7 million + $68 million = $238.7 million improvement. Let us be generous again and let these flow straight through to “net profit”. Let us be even more generous and compare just to the Q1 2018 non-GAAP net loss (-$567.9 million). Well, it’s easy to see that $238.7 million is not going to erase a $567.9 million loss. So just keeping Q2 2018 Model 3's marginal gross profit implied in Tesla’s guidance is not going to cut it.

Even if Tesla is able to increase the marginal gross profit on those last 36,000 units to double what it achieves during Q2 2018 – and remember, in this model all the fixed costs are already diluted as of the Q1 2018 loss, so improvement has to come from taking costs out of the car – the additional contribution would be $341.8+$68 million = $409.4 million. That would still fall short of Q1 2018’s non-GAAP loss by $158.5 million. The distance to GAAP profitability would be larger still. Again, it’s important to remember that this already implies significant improvement over and beyond the easiest gains from increasing production – which is diluting fixed costs over a larger number of units.

CONCLUSION

Just increasing Model 3 production to 5,000/week doesn’t look like enough to pull Tesla from its tremendous losses.

Of course, it does look like enough to reduce such losses. But then again, that’s only a short-term palliative, because:

By Q4 2018, Tesla will be seeing the $7,500 EV tax credit starting to evaporate. This will either bring an up to $7,500 price increase (with an impact on quantities sold) or up to $7,500 in margin erosion on every car Tesla sells (Model S, X and 3).By Q4 2018, Tesla will already be starting to see the arrival of direct competitors to its higher-margin Model S and X, as well as others trying for lower in the market. And all of those will be enjoying the $7,500 EV tax credit, on top. For instance, the Jaguar I-Pace will be starting at $62,000 after the tax credit. With the Model 3 seeing the tax credit gone, even the I-Pace becomes something of a direct competitor! There is no market for 250,000 Model 3s (5,000/week, 50 weeks) at $50k and beyond. Remember, the Model S60 used to start at roughly $65,000 including a $1,000 referral discount. With the $7,500 tax credit, that meant it was effectively a $57,500 car. The Model S60 never sold more than, say, 20,000-25,000 units per year. Why would the Model 3 at a nearly similar price sell 250,000? No, those kinds of volumes are only possible with the $35,000 Model 3. And the $35,000 Model 3 doesn’t exist because Tesla can’t sell it profitably. Indeed, even the long range Model 3 comes with a $5,000 premium package to create gross margin (and even that looks hard to go away).

Again, to conclude, just producing 5,000 Model 3/week is not enough to bring Tesla out of its loss-making habits.


Online rrocket

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1656 on: May 06, 2018, 01:05:39 pm »
Up to 70 percent preferred reservation holders passing on Model 3.

Someone before asked me when I had seen this figure. It popped up again after Q1. While certainly not absolutely definitive, it should be at least a bit concerning

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-70-of-teslas-biggest-fans-didnt-buy-a-model-3-when-offered-analyst-finds-2018-03-19
« Last Edit: May 06, 2018, 06:04:37 pm by rrocket »

Offline SKYMTL

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1657 on: May 07, 2018, 08:20:08 am »
Up to 70 percent preferred reservation holders passing on Model 3.

Someone before asked me when I had seen this figure. It popped up again after Q1. While certainly not absolutely definitive, it should be at least a bit concerning

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-70-of-teslas-biggest-fans-didnt-buy-a-model-3-when-offered-analyst-finds-2018-03-19

Meanwhile, their deposits are being used as part of an elaborate Ponzi scheme. 

Offline Blueprint

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1658 on: May 07, 2018, 12:52:30 pm »
Up to 70 percent preferred reservation holders passing on Model 3.

Someone before asked me when I had seen this figure. It popped up again after Q1. While certainly not absolutely definitive, it should be at least a bit concerning

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-70-of-teslas-biggest-fans-didnt-buy-a-model-3-when-offered-analyst-finds-2018-03-19

Meanwhile, their deposits are being used as part of an elaborate Ponzi scheme.

My neighbour, an accountant, just pulled his deposit. We'll see how time it takes for him to receive it.
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Offline Gurgie

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Re: TESLA Model III
« Reply #1659 on: May 07, 2018, 01:02:17 pm »
Up to 70 percent preferred reservation holders passing on Model 3.

Someone before asked me when I had seen this figure. It popped up again after Q1. While certainly not absolutely definitive, it should be at least a bit concerning

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/more-than-70-of-teslas-biggest-fans-didnt-buy-a-model-3-when-offered-analyst-finds-2018-03-19

Meanwhile, their deposits are being used as part of an elaborate Ponzi scheme.

My neighbour, an accountant, just pulled his deposit. We'll see how time it takes for him to receive it.
Has Chaos received his back yet?

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