Author Topic: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!  (Read 40944 times)

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #120 on: January 09, 2014, 01:22:24 pm »
and quite frankly... yes. minimum wage would make a difference to me. generally speaking, a person who makes minimum wage (or close to) has either little experience, little skill, or short on brain power. just a generalization.

 :o  Seriously? You know sometimes you should really keep your thoughts inside.

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #121 on: January 09, 2014, 02:51:31 pm »
so you are saying there are a lot of experienced, highly skilled, smart people making minimum wage? my thought shouldn't need to be kept inside... not only did i bracket it by saying "in general" so there are always exceptions, but it's just the truth... don't get so hurt about someone saying the truth.

i didn't even mean it as totally negative... the person could be brilliant and skilled, but might have just started... just saying in this case i wouldn't take their opinions or thoughts as gospel.  and again.. even said i didn't mean to come across as being an ass at the end of the post... stop trying to find issues where there are none.


and yeah, i had been forwarded that link a couple days back i believe sirO... scary because it happens constantly. and they specifically teach the business managers to use the whole, "you can negotiate a lower rate later" crap.... fricken hate it. sure you can get a lower rate.. when you trade in your car at a huge loss and buy a new one at retail... so you save a few grand in interest at the cost of double that in depreciation and negative equity.



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Offline tenpenny

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Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #122 on: January 09, 2014, 02:57:10 pm »

Quote
The big picture is that companies can verbally promise the world while their contracts state exactly the opposite and there is currently no real recourse.

just to clarify, the recourse you are speaking of is for the incorrect verbal "agreement"? basically saying as long as they have it on paper, your feel they are free to say whatever they want and that is wrong, or that they are allowed to say whatever they want because they are covered in writing?

hopefully i'm not coming across as an ass in this post... i don't mean to. just explaining myself and trying to get clarifications.

Car sales, cell phone, internet and cable companies are all held in low regard for a reason. The salesforce can and some do say anything to get you to sign on. After that, the seller is only bound by the terms of the contract.
There are all kinds of examples, this being the latest:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/car-buyers-say-dealerships-duped-them-over-td-s-costly-loans-1.2489309

If you buy the car at 25% interest, we'll renegotiate in a year at a lower rate. After the contract was signed, TD of course refused to renegotiate.

We're only having a discussion. I don't think you are being an ass at all.

It appears that the dealerships promise refinancing, which is beyond their control, but typical of what some dealers do.


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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #123 on: January 09, 2014, 03:00:36 pm »
Water can't get hotter than 100 ;)

Depends on the pressure. Boyle's Law. :stick:
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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #124 on: January 09, 2014, 03:04:49 pm »

It appears that the dealerships promise refinancing, which is beyond their control, but typical of what some dealers do.

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Yup.

Now this couple had already been through bankruptcy, and they do not seem to be anywhere close to being financial geniuses, but there should be at least a reasonable level of consumer protection from this kind of behaviour.

Offline aquadorhj

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #125 on: January 09, 2014, 03:20:24 pm »
Water can't get hotter than 100 ;)

Depends on the pressure. Boyle's Law. :stick:

well, the water hotter than 100 c will instantly turn to steam at ambient temperature so...   ;D ;D

but that coffee thing, you can get severe burns from water hotter than 60 c, so let's not discuss mcD's coffee.
(btw, i always get 1 cream with McD's coffee.. just to cool it down some. )

Driving thrills makes my wallet lighter.. and therefore makes me faster because i'm shedding weight... :D

Offline johngenx

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #126 on: January 09, 2014, 03:22:58 pm »
There's way more to the McD's coffee story, and upon a lot more reading, I now side with the woman.

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #127 on: January 09, 2014, 03:37:22 pm »

Offline Fobroader

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Lighten up Francis.....

Offline my2cents

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #129 on: January 09, 2014, 03:48:21 pm »
So what have we learned?

Woman was liable - Enterprise billed her - she gave it to insurer - insurer wrongly assumed Enterprise had possession - found out otherwise and has to pay claim.

They are negotiating on what the used car is actually worth.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #130 on: January 09, 2014, 03:52:17 pm »
There's way more to the McD's coffee story, and upon a lot more reading, I now side with the woman.

Same here.

Offline Noto

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #131 on: January 09, 2014, 03:58:42 pm »
From the outset it was clear that this was a battle Enterprise was never going to win, so it was only a question of how much negative press they'd absorb before buckling and working it out with her insurer.
It angers me that Enterprise wouldn't win - it's 1) a dangerous precedent to set, and 2) shows that the media can just bully its way into others' affairs in which they have no interest.  The media here made money and showed that it has more power than a binding contract, the law of which is so deeply entrenched into our society that it pre-dates modern civilization in North America itself.

Just because it seems unfair does not mean that a contract should not be binding, and it definitely doesn't mean that when someone's on the losing end, they should just find a news source that's willing to paint the corporation as evil.  Enterprise did nothing wrong here, and she did (by not having valid insurance to cover the situation).
giving permission does not equal accepting all liabilities.
Exactly - and a great legal argument.  Permissive language does not imply all-encompassing outcomes.
And the idea that posting a sign absolves you of all liability. Since when? The McDonalds coffee cups have always had the warning on them that the contents may be hot. That didn't stop that woman from successfully suing after she spilled scalding coffee on herself.

The big picture is that companies can verbally promise the world while their contracts state exactly the opposite and there is currently no real recourse.
Employees are agents that are able to bind a corporation, but they cannot deviate from a standard form contract - there were no ambiguities here, and there was sufficient notice that a renter need not be informed by an Enterprise representative of the risks involved in using the drop-box.  By the way, how do you know what the employee did or did not tell her?  How do you know that she even locked the car?!  The only concrete thing we know here (i.e. not trusting what he or she said, but objective, well-proven pieces of evidence) is that there was a contract that specified the liability of the renter in using the drop-box, and the additional sign-age on the box that reiterated, in plainer language, what use of the box would result in.

Quote from: CBC link=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/kristen-cockerill-won-t-have-to-pay-for-stolen-47k-rental-car-1.2487727
"Cockerill's insurance company initially took the position that she wasn't responsible for the Mustang after she returned it to Enterprise, so it wasn't going to cover the cost of the theft.
She said she later heard from her insurance company that it's now negotiating with Enterprise."
This indicates that her personal auto insurance is covering the cost, not that Enterprise has forgiven her.  Her insurer was not at that time in possession of the rental contract, and could therefore not assume that she would be liable.  When they got the contract, they understood that she would be.

That's her insurer's own prerogative based on her policy, which I am not privy to, and cannot comment on.  I suspect all contracts here are being honoured, including Enterprise's own about the drop-box.

The apology she got from Enterprise was nothing other than a PR gesture of goodwill, and not because they had done any wrong.  Media misappropriating the story, as per usual.  I'm not impressed.  At least the media didn't sway the breaking of any contracts.


...as for McDonald's coffee, the story is also ridiculous.  She had $10,000 in medical bills (economic or pecuniary damages), and was awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages (which are non-economic, such as 'pain and suffering').  There's a cap on damages in New Mexico, where the spilling occurred, and on appeal, the punitive damages were reversed to $640,000.  McDonalds settled the case at that point, the amount of which is confidential - but it was far less than $640,000.

The reason why McDonalds lost was because their protocol was to have their coffee's standing temperature between 82-88 degrees C, which is considered "negligent" for the safety of any person, as no person's GI tract can withstand that temperature without being burned.

As a side, the granny spilled the coffee because she was an idiot - put it between her legs in the passenger seat to put in cream/sugar as her nephew drove off (while the car was in motion).  The reason why they settled was because of her contributory negligence - McDonalds was not solely liable for her burns.

Offline Noto

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #132 on: January 09, 2014, 04:06:06 pm »
Wiki summed it up better, by the way, about the coffee:

"Applying the principles of comparative negligence, the jury found that McDonald's was 80% responsible for the incident and Liebeck was 20% at fault. Though there was a warning on the coffee cup, the jury decided that the warning was neither large enough nor sufficient. They awarded Liebeck US$200,000 in compensatory damages, which was then reduced by 20% to $160,000. In addition, they awarded her $2.7 million in punitive damages. The jurors apparently arrived at this figure from Morgan's suggestion to penalize McDonald's for one or two days' worth of coffee revenues, which were about $1.35 million per day. The judge reduced punitive damages to $480,000, three times the compensatory amount, for a total of $640,000. The decision was appealed by both McDonald's and Liebeck in December 1994, but the parties settled out of court for an undisclosed amount less than $600,000."

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #133 on: January 09, 2014, 04:16:07 pm »
your life should never be astronomically better after a bad thing happens... especially if you are found at all responsible for the "accident"...

punitive damages should be just that... punishment... no individual should gain anything from them. it punishes the company/person at fault and the money should be put into a charity or fund determined by the judge or court. just my opinion... or else to me, it's not just punitive damages, it's additional compensation.

guess we have derailed this a bit... whoops.

one thing to mention, people keep saying the media "won" and that she isn't paying anything... from what i'm reading, her insurance is paying... so enterprise "won".

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #134 on: January 09, 2014, 04:19:23 pm »
From the outset it was clear that this was a battle Enterprise was never going to win, so it was only a question of how much negative press they'd absorb before buckling and working it out with her insurer.
It angers me that Enterprise wouldn't win - it's 1) a dangerous precedent to set, and 2) shows that the media can just bully its way into others' affairs in which they have no interest.  The media here made money and showed that it has more power than a binding contract, the law of which is so deeply entrenched into our society that it pre-dates modern civilization in North America itself.

Just because it seems unfair does not mean that a contract should not be binding, and it definitely doesn't mean that when someone's on the losing end, they should just find a news source that's willing to paint the corporation as evil.  Enterprise did nothing wrong here, and she did (by not having valid insurance to cover the situation).
giving permission does not equal accepting all liabilities.
Exactly - and a great legal argument.  Permissive language does not imply all-encompassing outcomes.
And the idea that posting a sign absolves you of all liability. Since when? The McDonalds coffee cups have always had the warning on them that the contents may be hot. That didn't stop that woman from successfully suing after she spilled scalding coffee on herself.

The big picture is that companies can verbally promise the world while their contracts state exactly the opposite and there is currently no real recourse.
Employees are agents that are able to bind a corporation, but they cannot deviate from a standard form contract - there were no ambiguities here, and there was sufficient notice that a renter need not be informed by an Enterprise representative of the risks involved in using the drop-box.  By the way, how do you know what the employee did or did not tell her?  How do you know that she even locked the car?!  The only concrete thing we know here (i.e. not trusting what he or she said, but objective, well-proven pieces of evidence) is that there was a contract that specified the liability of the renter in using the drop-box, and the additional sign-age on the box that reiterated, in plainer language, what use of the box would result in.

Quote from: CBC link=http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/nova-scotia/kristen-cockerill-won-t-have-to-pay-for-stolen-47k-rental-car-1.2487727
"Cockerill's insurance company initially took the position that she wasn't responsible for the Mustang after she returned it to Enterprise, so it wasn't going to cover the cost of the theft.
She said she later heard from her insurance company that it's now negotiating with Enterprise."
This indicates that her personal auto insurance is covering the cost, not that Enterprise has forgiven her.  Her insurer was not at that time in possession of the rental contract, and could therefore not assume that she would be liable.  When they got the contract, they understood that she would be.

That's her insurer's own prerogative based on her policy, which I am not privy to, and cannot comment on.  I suspect all contracts here are being honoured, including Enterprise's own about the drop-box.

The apology she got from Enterprise was nothing other than a PR gesture of goodwill, and not because they had done any wrong.  Media misappropriating the story, as per usual.  I'm not impressed.  At least the media didn't sway the breaking of any contracts.


...as for McDonald's coffee, the story is also ridiculous.  She had $10,000 in medical bills (economic or pecuniary damages), and was awarded $2.7 million in punitive damages (which are non-economic, such as 'pain and suffering').  There's a cap on damages in New Mexico, where the spilling occurred, and on appeal, the punitive damages were reversed to $640,000.  McDonalds settled the case at that point, the amount of which is confidential - but it was far less than $640,000.

The reason why McDonalds lost was because their protocol was to have their coffee's standing temperature between 82-88 degrees C, which is considered "negligent" for the safety of any person, as no person's GI tract can withstand that temperature without being burned.

As a side, the granny spilled the coffee because she was an idiot - put it between her legs in the passenger seat to put in cream/sugar as her nephew drove off (while the car was in motion).  The reason why they settled was because of her contributory negligence - McDonalds was not solely liable for her burns.

Contract law is about protecting the powerful. Regular citizens simply don't have the resources to fight back against corporations. Corporations know this and have been adding increasingly onerous clauses to their contracts, basically absolving themselves of any liability. Sometimes these contracts can be voided, but for most people, public pressure is the only way to get ridiculous claims overturned.

Given that newspapers are written with language targeting an 8th grade level, most of these common agreements are simply incomprehensible. That makes it very easy to take advantage of people.

A modest proposal for reforming the civil legal system. All lawyers work for a public, non-profit corporation. Lots are drawn for one defence counsel and one prosecutor. One flat rate. Have the trial. Compensatory damages go to the claimant, punitive damages go into funding the corporation.


Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #135 on: January 09, 2014, 04:29:45 pm »
your life should never be astronomically better after a bad thing happens... especially if you are found at all responsible for the "accident"...

punitive damages should be just that... punishment... no individual should gain anything from them. it punishes the company/person at fault and the money should be put into a charity or fund determined by the judge or court. just my opinion... or else to me, it's not just punitive damages, it's additional compensation.

guess we have derailed this a bit... whoops.

one thing to mention, people keep saying the media "won" and that she isn't paying anything... from what i'm reading, her insurance is paying... so enterprise "won".

Her insurance company and Enterprise are negotiating. I'd say at this point Enterprise just wants it to go away.

Offline Noto

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2014, 12:06:26 pm »
punitive damages should be just that... punishment... no individual should gain anything from them. it punishes the company/person at fault and the money should be put into a charity or fund determined by the judge or court. just my opinion... or else to me, it's not just punitive damages, it's additional compensation.
one thing to mention, people keep saying the media "won" and that she isn't paying anything... from what i'm reading, her insurance is paying... so enterprise "won".
:iagree: I cannot get into details (privilege), but I had a case where my client was awarded punitive damages.  We had the punitive amounts paid instead to a trust fund to be provided to a charity to attempt to avoid the peril from recurring.
one thing to mention, people keep saying the media "won" and that she isn't paying anything... from what i'm reading, her insurance is paying... so enterprise "won".
Correct.  It's not so much a "win", but it's enforcing the contracts and policies properly.  The situation was always meant to be that Enterprise be paid for its stolen property while under the care and control of the renter, and the Renter is to be indemnified and held harmless by her own personal insurer.  There's no wrongdoing here at all on the part of Enterprise.  When a claim is to be made, Enterprise notifies the renter, who brings it to the attention of her insurer.  Since she declined Enterprise's insurer, it was her responsibility to provide the letter to her insurer; Enterprise does not know who her insurer is, nor is it privy to dealing with it.

"negotiating" in this sense does not mean that they are trying to 'strike a deal;' rather, it means that they are applying the policy as stated.  Her insurer may be trying to get a 'discount' since the vehicle was not brand new, and therefore market value does not necessarily apply, except by the contract created in the rental policy (which is binding on the insurer).
Contract law is about protecting the powerful.
...
Sometimes these contracts can be voided, but for most people, public pressure is the only way to get ridiculous claims overturned.
Oh, you're one of those...that's a shame.  Contract law is about respecting two persons ability to make agreements with one another.  Corporations have no more power than an individual person.  What you misconstrue as 'power' is simply what we call a "Standard Form Contract".  It is intended on being unilateral, where the renter (in this case) has the option of entering the contract or not.  However, the doctrine of "Strict Construction" means that any ambiguities are construed against the drafting party.  Hence, if the contract was ambiguous or overly zealolus, then a court would find against Enterprise.  Their policy has been under legal scrutiny a TON of times - people are usually more respectful than to simply call CBC and cry about it.  She called Enterprise upon receipt of the letter and sought legal advice, rather than contacting her insurer.  As Enterprise is not her lawyer, they cannot provide such advice.

I reiterate:  Enterprise acted wholly properly, and this woman sought to circumvent the law by using the media.  It's a shame that the media allows itself to act as such an outlet.  "Public pressure," as you call it, is bullying, and it is inappropriate in the circumstances.  Corporations should not be bullied just because they are enforcing their policies, which abide by the law.

Offline sailor723

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #137 on: January 10, 2014, 12:14:18 pm »
^ Hence the phrase "The law is an ass"  ;D
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Offline Noto

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #138 on: January 10, 2014, 02:16:31 pm »
^ Hence the phrase "The law is an assfair;D
^^^ fixed  :rofl2:

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Enterprise tries to charge woman for car stolen AFTER she had returned it!
« Reply #139 on: January 10, 2014, 04:52:59 pm »
^ Hence the phrase "The law is an assfair;D
^^^ fixed  :rofl2:

It certainly not fair. The one who can afford the best legal team wins, or at worst can drag out the proceedings until the other side runs out of money. The only bullies are the ones with the deep pockets.

See also SLAPP lawsuits. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_lawsuit_against_public_participation

The legal system should be nationalized to allow both sides in a civil suit equal footing.