Author Topic: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick  (Read 26874 times)

Offline Fobroader

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #40 on: December 04, 2013, 01:37:01 am »
^^I like what the Miata is about...its mission....but I hate the looks.

The smiley one or all of them??
Lighten up Francis.....

Online rrocket

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #41 on: December 04, 2013, 01:42:23 am »
^^I like what the Miata is about...its mission....but I hate the looks.

The smiley one or all of them??

Particularly the smiley one. 

The original Miata I don't find attractive..or ugly.  Just kinda there.  It's a neat car though.
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline Black Hatch

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #42 on: December 04, 2013, 01:43:25 am »
Great!
Mazda wins again....

And yet can't make a dent in the US market (and here too).
Whats wrong and how can they change that.

They are obviously doing something wrong.

Their cars often win because they are often the most engaging to drive.  99% of the people could care less about that.

What are they doing wrong?

You're the Mazda slappy...you tell me.   ;)

For awhile, their MPG wasn't as good as the competition.  And the horrid smiley face styling.  Maybe they forever lost customers due to that?  Did the Ford alliance leave a bad taste in people's mouths?

Beats me....

FWIW...they don't currently have a car that interests me in the least.

Fack if I know. I think it may have been all those things that you mentioned.

I think they are doing it right. Just everyone who is a potential buyer is thinking it wrong.
They should all want a manual, sporty fun driving hatchback/CUV with good fuel efficiency, styling.

What vehicle that Mazda competitor makes that interests you currently? And what of it is different from Mazda?

I suppose everyone has their bias and may dislike certain brands due to past experiences.
If the cars badges were removed on Mazda would people be able to tell the difference from another Japanese make?

I think it may also be advertising.
If based on TV advertisements you think Toyota/Honda (Lexus/Acura) makes the most sportiest, heart-pounding, fastest, soul-inducing vehicles in the world.
Good advertising but IMO a little disingenuous of what they really are.

Offline Fobroader

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #43 on: December 04, 2013, 01:46:34 am »
^^I like what the Miata is about...its mission....but I hate the looks.

The smiley one or all of them??

Particularly the smiley one. 

The original Miata I don't find attractive..or ugly.  Just kinda there.  It's a neat car though.

Im with ya, they had a miata coupe concept that I really liked, but besides that Ive always thought they were a little too....round....fantastic cars and Id love to own one, but not my favorite styling exercise.

Offline Fobroader

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #44 on: December 04, 2013, 01:50:51 am »
Great!
Mazda wins again....

And yet can't make a dent in the US market (and here too).
Whats wrong and how can they change that.

They are obviously doing something wrong.

Their cars often win because they are often the most engaging to drive.  99% of the people could care less about that.

What are they doing wrong?

You're the Mazda slappy...you tell me.   ;)

For awhile, their MPG wasn't as good as the competition.  And the horrid smiley face styling.  Maybe they forever lost customers due to that?  Did the Ford alliance leave a bad taste in people's mouths?

Beats me....

FWIW...they don't currently have a car that interests me in the least.

Fack if I know. I think it may have been all those things that you mentioned.

I think they are doing it right. Just everyone who is a potential buyer is thinking it wrong.
They should all want a manual, sporty fun driving hatchback/CUV with good fuel efficiency, styling.

What vehicle that Mazda competitor makes that interests you currently? And what of it is different from Mazda?

I suppose everyone has their bias and may dislike certain brands due to past experiences.
If the cars badges were removed on Mazda would people be able to tell the difference from another Japanese make?

I think it may also be advertising.
If based on TV advertisements you think Toyota/Honda (Lexus/Acura) makes the most sportiest, heart-pounding, fastest, soul-inducing vehicles in the world.
Good advertising but IMO a little disingenuous of what they really are.

Which is weird, because in any segment, Mazda has a very competitive player. I really love the Mazda 5 van thing, the 3 is a blast to drive and the 6 is gorgeous......maybe they havent got their name out there enough. Or they need a halo car to attract people in, like the RX7, I loved that car and still lust after it  :love: :drool:


Offline MR2Pritch

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #45 on: December 04, 2013, 08:17:35 am »
Price, segment, options.....try to keep it the same. Just so you dont have a car cost $10-20K more than the cheapest car in the test section and then it loses the challenge because of cost.

Cost alone doesn't necessarily make the vehicle loose. Many times, the priciest vehicle in the category wins. That, while voting is equalized to help neutralize the price's effect on scoring. There's a 'price factor' that compensates, to varying degrees based on the overall cost of the vehicle (and therefore its market segment and buyer price sensitivity) to the varying prices of models in that class. Some cars cost more than others. Even in the same class. The price factor adjustment helps reduce that aspect. In the lower-priced categories (small car), a more expensive car pays more of a penalty for being pricey.
 

Offline MR2Pritch

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #46 on: December 04, 2013, 08:22:54 am »
Plus the "as tested" price as opposed to MSRP.  For example, the Q50 Hybrid MSRP is ~$47K.  Clearly it's an Under $50K car.  But if the manufacturer sends you one with even a single big ticket option...now it's a $50K+ car category....even though it's the SAME car...(ie driving dynamics, styling, braking, quality, etc)

I think that part is silly for starters....

And the category names need fixing.  "Family Car"?  Isn't a Camry a Family Car?  I'd think a Camry/Fusion/Accord is more of a Family Car in Canada than a Soul, 500L etc..

All of those attributes are scored. Yes, in some cases a manufacturer can change categories by adding an option. Going up a price class can mean tougher competition. Some optional equipment changes driving dynamics, styling and even braking too.... so is it really the 'same' car?

And your right-- family cars come in all shapes and sizes. That's why our family car category had machines like the Rondo and Soul and the Impala and the 6 and even a plug-in electric, and 2 hybrid models. It's up to the consumer to decide what's a family car for them-- this just gives them plenty of options.

Offline Solstice2006

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #47 on: December 04, 2013, 09:54:08 am »
Great!
Mazda wins again....

And yet can't make a dent in the US market (and here too).
Whats wrong and how can they change that.

Much has to do with the finance rates, and that their cars are made in Japan, so that affects pricing in bringing them over, and profit.  For a small company, I think they are doing relatively well in the Canadian market.  Usually the ratio is 10 to 1 for US to Canada cars.  It's more like 4 to 1 for US to Canada for Mazdas.  I suspect it will take another 2 to 3 years before we see Mazda break the 350,000 mark in the US, and the 100,000 mark in Canada. 

The new 2014 Mazda3 hasn't been out very long, and isn't included in the numbers below.  And the Mazda6 is doing alright in the US, it is the highest it has ever been in 5 years at 39,270 YTD.  Mazda should be proud that they are beating the sales of the 2nd generation Mazda6, that was designed for the US to begin with.  And when the Mazda2 gets built with Toyota in Mexico that should help with Mazdas growth. 

Year - U.S. Sales / Canadian Sales

2004 263,882  73,888 
2005 258,339  77,867 
2006 268,786  81,007 
2007 295,737  86,659 
2008 263,949  84,974 
2009 207,767  73,672 
2010 229,566  78,662 
2011 250,426  69,186 
2012 277,046 71,638
2013 YTD * 260,983 67,301



Offline Noto

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #48 on: December 04, 2013, 11:01:48 am »
Lol...deep breath...I agree, but one year we have only one small SUV, what do we do? another year we have 3 that's much better and it goes on and on for all categories. 
This.  MR2Pritch, I don't mean anything but respect in what I say here, please know that.  I'm critical of AJAC's awards because inherently, you test only "new" vehicles.  As a casual consumer, I don't necessarily care what vehicle is "newest" (and in some cases, I'm weary of new models because of teething concerns).  What I care about is what vehicle will provide me with the best value for my dollar, within my budget.

Just because the Santa Fe Sport was redesigned last year doesn't make it less important for me when comparing to the Forester, Cherokee, Rav4, CRV, CX-5, Tiguan, etc.  I recognize that there are many, many vehicles to test, and to re-test them all would be a near impossibility.

But therein lies the problem.  I take issue with AJAC using terms like "BEST NEW Family car".  Calling it "car of the year" or "SUV of the year" is almost fine by me - I'd just add in "redesigned" or "new model" - do whatever tests you want and hand out whatever bazillion awards you want - just don't mislead the public by calling it the "best new" when it hasn't been compared to all its competitors.  A previously unowned Focus, for example, redesigned in 2012, is still "new".  To make a contention that one vehicle is the "best new family car" of 2013 indicates that it has been selected over all its competition - not just newly redesigned models that have paid the entrance fee.  Amend the title, and we'd disagree less.

I'm also not fond of the laissez-faire 'categories'.  I love the idea that AJAC says "here's the best of what you can get, of the newly redesigned models, for under $50k..." but then other categories such as "Best New Family Car" suggests that AJAC knows what is best for a family.  And to crown the Soul?!  It's a wonderful car, it really is - but for a family?!  You've got to be kidding.  No family would consider it.  It's short, has a shallow trunk, comes only in FWD (not winter-friendly, or so it's perceived by the lay audience), and would be very, very snug with 1 or 2 car seats installed.  These are all important attributes for a family - not to mention being limited to only 5 seats means that even a single car seat installed makes it immediately a 4-seater (including the child).  Carpool duty is out of the question.  And if you consider older families, it doesn't have the interior volume to do a weekend roadtrip with all seats occupied.  Like I said, I am very fond of the Soul and don't mean to single it out.

This is all to say that the categories are decided by AJAC and are subjective.  It's just a way for journalists to have a fun time testing vehicles and throwing out awards that sway markets.  With such power should come greater responsibility, and therein is my position.

I don't mean to offend any in making the above statements.

What are they doing wrong?

From my experiences with family/friends looking for vehicles, the common reasons I hear for not choosing a Mazda 3 are as follows (note that I don't know anyone who cares about any other model offered, save for the CX-5, which is purchased fairly routinely):
1) Too narrow - front passengers' elbows bump
2) on the same lines, many feel that there's limited interior space
3) Corolla/Civic are cheaper/offer more value
4) Perceived reliability of Corolla/Civic is better than Mazda (not necessarily poor from Mazda, but better for the others)
5) Hard/uncomfortable seats (big bolsters work well for holding an engaged driver, but they are difficult to get over when entering the car for elderly people with arthritis or other ailments)
6) Poor rear outward visibility on the hatch

The only quibbles I hear about the CX-5 are a heavy tailgate that only self-closes when 80% shut (our Forester will close by gravity when about 50%) and that for such a small CUV, it drives HUGE (mostly because of the poor rear outward visibility).
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 01:19:43 pm by NoTo »

Offline MR2Pritch

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #49 on: December 04, 2013, 11:43:50 am »
Some interesting points. And yes--testing all vehicles is impossible, logistically.
Thing is, there's so much valuable data generated by this process hosted on the website, that we encourage shoppers to go back to previous years, when the model they're considering was new, and compare the scores. Easy-to-use drop-down tools so you could compare, say, a 2010 Model X against a 2013 Model Y side by side, on the same bases. That's the vote results of all of the judges, performance figures, measurements, etc etc etc.



Offline Snowman

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #50 on: December 04, 2013, 11:51:28 am »
Some interesting points. And yes--testing all vehicles is impossible, logistically.
Thing is, there's so much valuable data generated by this process hosted on the website, that we encourage shoppers to go back to previous years, when the model they're considering was new, and compare the scores. Easy-to-use drop-down tools so you could compare, say, a 2010 Model X against a 2013 Model Y side by side, on the same bases. That's the vote results of all of the judges, performance figures, measurements, etc etc etc.

Found it....had to dig deep and click on the file symbol but there it was  :fall:

http://www.ajac.ca/web/ccoty/vehicle_print.asp?eid=883

Now that is what I would like to see on an Autos comparison article side by side with the other test subjects.

Offline Spec5

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #51 on: December 04, 2013, 12:32:43 pm »
"Best New" means nothing to me. If you look at the truck market for example you'll never see a brand new Chev, Dodge or Ford all released in the same model year - that's so that each one of them can have the "Best New Truck" title every time they redesign a truck.

I think you guys are way too critical - this test at least provides a thorough evaluation of all the new vehicles released this year - like Pritch said you can just select the vehicle of choice from the drop down and compare the 2. What do you guys care what wins what category?! The information is there - use it and apply it to your own needs. Quit being so damn lazy! :)
My other Honda is an MP4-31!

Offline dkaz

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #52 on: December 04, 2013, 12:59:34 pm »
People are so fixated on the smiley face. I looked down at my car from my bedroom window the other night and thought to myself "damn that's a sexy car". I love how the car looks like it was hand chiseled, the crystal white pearl in the sunrise really made the body features pop. Here's a view though not in CWP:



The sales dip happened a full year before the 2nd gen was released. It was the recession, not the smiley face. Anyway well deserved win for Mazda but nothing quite enticing for me to trade up to any of their winners yet. I love my happy 2012, smiling at me like a puppy ready to rip up corners.

Offline Solstice2006

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #53 on: December 04, 2013, 01:07:03 pm »
What would happen if you didn't have the 2012 right now?  I would go with the new generation vs the 2012.  I have nothing against the smiley face, but to me the newer one seems more sophisticated.  And the skyactiv 2.5L is a nice option too.. especially when the manual comes...

Offline Noto

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #54 on: December 04, 2013, 01:29:01 pm »
Thing is, there's so much valuable data generated by this process hosted on the website, that we encourage shoppers to go back to previous years, when the model they're considering was new, and compare the scores.

I agree with you, but maybe push for it to be a little more obvious?  Again, I only mean respectful, constructive criticism.

When I walk into dealership X with my lass, we see these posterboards that read: "AJAC Car of the Year!" to which lassie says: "I thought I saw that over at Dealer Y a few minutes ago for their small car."

She can understand that it has won an award, but it won't sway her decision - if anything, she thinks "well, if everyone buys it, then why would I want the same car?"  It's only turned her off (despite that she drives a Forester, which has now won twice - but she liked it because it was quirky and different (and had a kick-a$s AWD system)).  At no point did she look at any scoring, educate herself on particulars, or see any reason why the vehicle had 'won' the title.

I'm a proponent of responsibility of media.  I think it's irresponsible to mislead the public (i.e. "if you have a family, this is the car for you...this year!") when the position is one with the potential for such a wide-reaching impact.

Offline JacobBlack

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #55 on: December 04, 2013, 01:39:12 pm »
I think if you don't know that "best new" means "the best thing released this year" then you might not get any value out of any other information anyway.
Nobody gets butthurt when the Academy Awards only judge films released in that year do they?
"The Hurt Locker wins best film" <<<< "Nooooo!!! Days of Thunder is better!!!"  :rofl2:

Offline SaskSpecV

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #56 on: December 04, 2013, 01:55:38 pm »
I think if you don't know that "best new" means "the best thing released this year" then you might not get any value out of any other information anyway.
Nobody gets butthurt when the Academy Awards only judge films released in that year do they?
"The Hurt Locker wins best film" <<<< "Nooooo!!! Days of Thunder is better!!!"  :rofl2:

Save your snark for a comment that really warrants it, Jacob.  Your movie analogy is inappropriate here.  There's a very good, logical argument to be made that "best new car" can - and SHOULD - be interpreted as the best car that you can buy that is brand new - i.e., any "new" car (no km on it) from any dealership.  Go ask a Toyota dealer if they have any "new cars" for sale - they will list their entire model lineup.  Even though only a fraction of them are "newly designed/redesigned models" (and thus eligible for AJAC testing).  To the average consumer's eye, they are all "new cars".

Yes, it's semantics - but for a lot of people out there, "best new" does NOT mean the best "re-designed or refreshed".  Hence the confusion, and the frustration.  The AJAC testing protocol is great, but the name can easily - and perhaps purposefully - be misinterpreted by the average consumer.

Offline JacobBlack

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #57 on: December 04, 2013, 02:04:43 pm »
Save your snark for a comment that really warrants it, Jacob.  Your movie analogy is inappropriate here.  There's a very good, logical argument to be made that "best new car" can - and SHOULD - be interpreted as the best car that you can buy that is brand new - i.e., any "new" car (no km on it) from any dealership.  Go ask a Toyota dealer if they have any "new cars" for sale - they will list their entire model lineup.  Even though only a fraction of them are "newly designed/redesigned models" (and thus eligible for AJAC testing).  To the average consumer's eye, they are all "new cars".

Yes, it's semantics - but for a lot of people out there, "best new" does NOT mean the best "re-designed or refreshed".  Hence the confusion, and the frustration.  The AJAC testing protocol is great, but the name can easily - and perhaps purposefully - be misinterpreted by the average consumer.

There's a difference between being light-hearted and snarky mate, no need to get all sullen about it.

But regardless of how you interpret it that movie analogy IS perfect. Nobody expects a film festival, music award or any other award to judge things from the year before. For a number of reasons including a big one: They already have been judged!

Also, if that's not good enough for a consumer, than they probably don't care about awards anyway, as they know that the award doesn't judge the "Best of All Time", so their criticism is pointless.

It's not hard to understand that "best new" in an award means, "best of that year", "new car" for sale and "new car" in an award are no more the same thing than "new film release" and "new dvds". 

FYI: I am not an AJAC member, I have no affiliation with AJAC or these awards. 
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 02:14:21 pm by JacobBlack »

Offline dkaz

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #58 on: December 04, 2013, 02:11:38 pm »
What would happen if you didn't have the 2012 right now?  I would go with the new generation vs the 2012.  I have nothing against the smiley face, but to me the newer one seems more sophisticated.  And the skyactiv 2.5L is a nice option too.. especially when the manual comes...

I'd take $4500 off a 2013.  ;D I should've waited. But apparently there were no more Touring or even Luxury Package manuals left anyway as of September, they've all been snatched up.

A manual 2.5L GT might sway me, but what I really want is the 4 door FRS, also manual.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 02:13:20 pm by DKaz »

Online rrocket

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Re: AJAC TestFest Category Winners Announced, Mazda Pulls Off Hat Trick
« Reply #59 on: December 04, 2013, 03:30:09 pm »
I think if you don't know that "best new" means "the best thing released this year" then you might not get any value out of any other information anyway.
Nobody gets butthurt when the Academy Awards only judge films released in that year do they?
"The Hurt Locker wins best film" <<<< "Nooooo!!! Days of Thunder is better!!!"  :rofl2:

Save your snark for a comment that really warrants it, Jacob.  Your movie analogy is inappropriate here.  There's a very good, logical argument to be made that "best new car" can - and SHOULD - be interpreted as the best car that you can buy that is brand new - i.e., any "new" car (no km on it) from any dealership.  Go ask a Toyota dealer if they have any "new cars" for sale - they will list their entire model lineup.  Even though only a fraction of them are "newly designed/redesigned models" (and thus eligible for AJAC testing).  To the average consumer's eye, they are all "new cars".

Yes, it's semantics - but for a lot of people out there, "best new" does NOT mean the best "re-designed or refreshed".  Hence the confusion, and the frustration.  The AJAC testing protocol is great, but the name can easily - and perhaps purposefully - be misinterpreted by the average consumer.

Your point is EXTREMELY valid, despite Mr. Black not recognizing it.

Just because it's new, doesn't make it the class leader, and because of that it isn't necessarily worthy of an award.  Just because it's "new" shouldn't be the only consideration for award.

  For example, next year there will be no new Mazda6 or Mazda3, yet those cars will still likely be the class leaders.  A vastly inferior car could be released in either class, yet because it's "new" it gets an award.  In that case, these awards offer little to the consumer....but hey the AJAC writers get to go on a junket so I guess that's all that matters....consumer be damned.