Topic: Lithium-Sulphur Could Replace Lithium-Ion As Battery Tech Advances

[Autos_Editor]

New composition of Lithium-Sulphur eliminates life cycle problems, cheaper than Lithium-Ion

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[tpl]

I just knew before reading that Graphene would be in there somewhere.

[MarkStevenson]

I just knew before reading that Graphene would be in there somewhere.

It's pretty exciting stuff, I think. The properties of it are just incredible.

[safristi]

Mmmm MORE SULPHUR.......just egging U on ..can we not get the message that full electrics are
eons away.....a wind turbine on an old Impala has more chance..so Mc Squinty in his golden retirement says.....

[Noto]

Lithium-Air batteries will be more promising...not sure what's taking so long for commercialization.  I can't find anything to indicate that they're having difficulties.

In any event, any battery tech that could keep the Boeing 787 in the air, among other faltered uses of LiIon batteries, is a welcomed addition.

I just wish the time from invention to commercialization wasn't so bloody long.

[Neromanceres]

Lithium Ion is just a generic term for Lithium rechargeable batteries.  Technically Lithium Sulphur and Lithium Air both fall as a subset of Lithium Ion chemistries.

Lithium Air currently exists only as a proven concept.  No battery even exists yet with the chemistry. First they need to figure out how to expand the concept into something people can actually use.  Then comes the hard part.  They have to figure out how to mass produce it.  Lithium Air is 10 years out minimum.  Lithium Sulphur however is closer to reality as it is closer aligned to existing Lithium Ion based chemistry manufacturing.

There will be a huge number of technological evolutions of Lithium Ion chemistries on both the anode and cathode sides of the battery.  It's expected that chemistries will increase in density by 8% per year and will have a corresponding decrease in cost.   So far in the last few years these expectations have been exceeded.

http://insideevs.com/gm-director-of-global-research-and-development-says-there-are-battery-prototypes-out-there-with-400whkg/

[safristi]

... .....

[PJ]

BC Hydro just annouced they are raising rates by 25% with more likely to follow.  By the time batteries are cheap and powerful enough to be mainstream useful it will be cheaper to run your car on gasoline.

Got my cynical hat on today.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

6.9˘/kWh up to 1350kWh and 10.34˘/kWh above the threshold are pretty low rates to begin with.

SaskPower residential rates are 11.37˘/kWh across the board. Most eastern jurisdiction are between 12˘ and 15˘/kWh.

https://www.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/customer-service-residential/residential-rates.html

http://www.saskpower.com/accounts-and-services/service-rates/residential-standard-rates/

http://www.nbpower.com/html/en/residential/rates/comparisons.html

[PJ]

6.9˘/kWh up to 1350kWh and 10.34˘/kWh above the threshold are pretty low rates to begin with.

SaskPower residential rates are 11.37˘/kWh across the board. Most eastern jurisdiction are between 12˘ and 15˘/kWh.

https://www.bchydro.com/accounts-billing/customer-service-residential/residential-rates.html

http://www.saskpower.com/accounts-and-services/service-rates/residential-standard-rates/

http://www.nbpower.com/html/en/residential/rates/comparisons.html

That's true.  It would have to go up a lot.  I'm alway below the threshood so I've gotten used to cheap rates.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

The advantages of running on hydro power. Quebec Hydro rates are pretty low too.

Around here it's mostly thermal plants, with a bit of hydro and wind.

[EV Dan]

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/521651/graphene-supercapacitors-ready-for-electric-vehicle-energy-storage-say-korean-engineers/
Very inspiring. If graphene supercaps can be produced inexpensively that would lead to plug-in and regular hybrids "on steroids", because of their ability to draw and release huge amounts of energy in bursts. They are however low in power density so they won't be replacing Li-ion batteries just yet.

[tpl]

http://www.technologyreview.com/view/521651/graphene-supercapacitors-ready-for-electric-vehicle-energy-storage-say-korean-engineers/
Very inspiring. If graphene supercaps can be produced inexpensively that would lead to plug-in and regular hybrids "on steroids", because of their ability to draw and release huge amounts of energy in bursts. They are however low in power density so they won't be replacing Li-ion batteries just yet.

I wonder if you could solve the refueling problem with a supercap.    Charge that in a couple of minutes, '000 of amps at '000 of volts,  and then relatively slowly discharge it into the traction battery.

[EV Dan]

I suppose, if there is powerful enough DC charger and that will be pricy. If you ask me 20-30 min quick DC charge is reasonable enough: plug it in, head to the adjacent Timmy, when u r back it's charged.
IMO it is currently all about price VS range for electrics. 100-120 km real life range may get you to and from work, but that's equal to 1/4 gas tank left in an ICE car, and that amount of gas remaining is enough to make lots of today's motorists nervous and on the lookout for a gas station.
Now 50kWh (150 mile range) future Leaf  is like having half full or half empty tank - depending on one's attitude toward life- and that I think maybe a golden middle.

[Noto]

I prefer the Tesla Model S's 400+km range.  Even with the heater on, a full charge will get ya 200km easily.  That's a helluvalot better at easing my range anxiety (unless I'm driving beyond Guelph from Toronto)

[EV Dan]

I prefer the Tesla Model S's 400+km range.  Even with the heater on, a full charge will get ya 200km easily.  That's a helluvalot better at easing my range anxiety (unless I'm driving beyond Guelph from Toronto)

Everybody does 
The big question is if Nissan's 150 mile range car can be made sooner and sold for much less than the Tesla's upcoming 200 mile ppl mover. It's about the price of the perceived comfort zone. 150 mile EPA range would work for me but I would insist on buying the car and leasing the battery for 4-5 years. If lease payments plus cost of electricity is cheaper than the otherwise cost of gas than I'm game.

[Noto]

I think the 95% usage is the problem - also explains why pick-ups sell so well.  Many consumers are afraid to buy a car with limited usage, even if they, at the time of purchase, have no need for the extra space.

My brother's buying a minivan to replace his rogue because he has 2 child seats.  His Rogue is a 2-seater (children excluded), so if they ever want to go out with friends, they can't carpool.  Is that really a big deal?  To them, it is.  In the 2 years that they've had the Rogue, they've "needed" to drive friends all of twice.

My daily commute is 13.6km each way.  Gets cold, so even 100km range would give me some anxiety for putting on the heater, radio, etc.  At 150mi (240ish km), I'd be more inclined, but fear for when I want to go skiing on a weekend, etc.  Even as a second car to an ICE, I don't think I'm ready for something that can't be refuelled quickly on the go.  I also wouldn't be willing to sacrifice an extra 30 mins to charge a car on a longer trip if there were free supercharging stations.  As much as I'd like to love electrics, I think hybrids are the way of the future.  To wit, I think the Volt's powertrain is really the smartest, though it could be far, far better (small diesel generator, better battery tech, exhaust heat recovery to warm the battery, etc).

[EV Dan]

Good points. I get it totally. The Volt type of powertrains I don't dig for the reasons of redundancy, weight and cost of using TWO full "engines" in one car. You need that range extender once is a while but you haul around all the extra iron every day. Same applies, to a lesser degree, to BMW i3 with a low power range extender.
What I think would be a great compromise is for occasional journeys to offer people a small trailer type range extender instead of a conventional loaner ICE car. It would be cheaper for automakers to keep them in stock and ready and we wouldn't need to change cars, just stop by the dealer's, hook up the generator behind and off we go.

[jyarkony]

Good points. I get it totally. The Volt type of powertrains I don't dig for the reasons of redundancy, weight and cost of using TWO full "engines" in one car. You need that range extender once is a while but you haul around all the extra iron every day. Same applies, to a lesser degree, to BMW i3 with a low power range extender.
What I think would be a great compromise is for occasional journeys to offer people a small trailer type range extender instead of a conventional loaner ICE car. It would be cheaper for automakers to keep them in stock and ready and we wouldn't need to change cars, just stop by the dealer's, hook up the generator behind and off we go.

the A1 e-tron was pretty cool in that it used a tiny rotary as the generator power plant, minimizing weight.

[X-Traction]

Good points. I get it totally. The Volt type of powertrains I don't dig for the reasons of redundancy, weight and cost of using TWO full "engines" in one car. You need that range extender once is a while but you haul around all the extra iron every day. ...

But a hybrid does not suffer greatly from hauling extra weight around.  This thinking is left over from cars that waste all the energy dissipated when braking. 

Yes, all cars including hybrids have to expend more energy to get extra weight uphill or moving faster.  But while a non-hybrid eventually wastes all that energy, a hybrid recovers most of it by having to do more engine braking on steep downhills or regenerative braking to slow down the extra weight.  Though there must be other factors, my  Escape Hybrid has gotten its best mileage while on long trips and loaded with people and baggage.