Topic: B.C.’s eco-bus debacle

[Bubba]

Does this mean hydrogen cars are a bad idea for Canada as well?

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2013/11/28/jesse-kline-b-c-s-eco-bus-debacle/

[EV Dan]

My rant re: FCV here:
http://www.autos.ca/forum/index.php/topic,85887.msg941090.html#msg941090

The article demonstrates that the infrastructure needed to bring costs down is too significant a hurdle, and a similar hurdle will likely be faced with passenger cars.

Many consumers didn't want to buy diesel because it wasn't at every gas station.  Imagine how long it'd take to put H2 tanks at every station (or even widespread enough around the cities and highways).

...and don't forget the part about buses not started in the cold because of freezing within the fuel cells.

So the hydrogen is trucked from Quebec where there is a chance it is reformed from natural gas, which is fracked most likely. Yep, it doesn't get greener than this 
Even if the hydrogen was made through electrolysis locally, it is still a very inefficient process, in comparison to just using the same electricity directly to charge an EV. And more over, AFAIK every FC car needs a lithium ion battery anyway which works as a buffer between the motor and the FC. It just makes more sense to make a higher capacity battery for that same vehicle than spend a hundred thousand $$ more for the FC crap.
Fuel Cell is a dead end the only reason it is still around is the powerful oil lobbyists with disgusting amount of political influence.

[WRX_Pilot]

Really, well Toyota and Hyundai would disagree with you.  It's easy to say 'make a better battery'... But obviously that's not happening anytime soon or if at all.  Hydrogen is really a form of battery, but it can provide 800km range and be filled in 10min unlike anything electric.

[EV Dan]

I would agree with Nissan in this case, who are rumoured to plan on using a double the capacity pack for the Leaf, which should give it around 150 MILES on a charge, EPA cycle. It is said they were inspired by Tesla who discontinued the "small" 40kWh battery due to lack of demand.
A hydrogen tank is similar, but not a battery. Not if H2 derives from natural gas. It would be more economical, more efficient and greener to use that natural gas directly as CNG and burn it in an ICE. A promised hundreds of miles range is nice but FC cars are really powered by fossil fuel in this particular case. That's why oil companies push for them, simply to stay busy.

[PJ]

Really, well Toyota and Hyundai would disagree with you.  It's easy to say 'make a better battery'... But obviously that's not happening anytime soon or if at all.  Hydrogen is really a form of battery, but it can provide 800km range and be filled in 10min unlike anything electric.

Do they really disagree or are they just pursuing fuel cells for government tax credits like Daimler does?

[WRX_Pilot]

There are multiple ways of making hydrogen, from fossil fuels is just the easiest way.  The same goes for creating electricity.  Of course both can be made with green methods, but hydrogen can be stored better than electricity.

[EV Dan]

Well if H2 reformed from fossil fuels is the easiest way then it will be the way. According to Wikipedia approx 95% of H2 is made from fossils. Thus FC vehicles effectively defy the idea of zero-emission transportation. As I said above, it is more energy efficient to compress the natural gas and use it directly in CNG cars than waste energy on the chemical reaction of reforming it to H2 and then more energy to extract power from it in the fuel cell. Really a FC car is only "electric" based on the method of propulsion but it does not make it green or zero emission. One could take an electric car, throw out the battery and install a gasoline ICE + generator to power the wheel motors. No need for a fuel cell so it is a lot cheaper, and also "electric" 

Battery electric vehicles are already more efficient than their ICE equivalents, even if the power is generated by burning coal or natural gas. But in Ontario that is a steadily diminishing percentage while it is mostly nuclear and hydro generation. BEVs go even further. They give their owners a choice of how green or carbon neutral they'd like to be. If someone makes a conscious choice to drive an EV despite its shortcomings they are much more likely to also install roof top solar or purchase green electricity from companies like Bullfrog Power.  This is what will pave the road to reversing climate change and this is why I think BEVs are the only direction governments should be supporting with our tax dollars.

[WRX_Pilot]

You keep ignoring that electricity generation is just as 'dirty', and just like H2 is not considered zero-emission unless produced from green sources.  I'll give you that obviously pure electric cars are more efficient than using fuel cells.  Burning CNG or hydrogen in ICEs is not the answer either, there are efficiency and pollution-control gains to be made in centralizing the production to the primary energy source, instead of every car doing it themselves.  So it again comes down to where's that magic battery? 

Moore's Law doesn't apply to batteries that are limited by the chemistry inherent in it's design it seems... H2 may be an alternative to battery energy storage, and it's dumb to write it off as a conspiracy of the oil companies.

[WRX_Pilot]

"On a full ­cycle well­-to­-wheels basis, then, the hydrogen­powered fuel cell electric vehicle is between 1.5 to 2.2 times more energy efficient than a battery EV in converting natural gas to vehicle fuel."

This might be good reading for you:  http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/education/pdfs/thomas_fcev_vs_battery_evs.pdf

[safristi]

Now THIS is a BUS..................OR this...

[EV Dan]

You keep ignoring that electricity generation is just as 'dirty', and just like H2 is not considered zero-emission unless produced from green sources.  I'll give you that obviously pure electric cars are more efficient than using fuel cells.  Burning CNG or hydrogen in ICEs is not the answer either, there are efficiency and pollution-control gains to be made in centralizing the production to the primary energy source, instead of every car doing it themselves.  So it again comes down to where's that magic battery? 

Moore's Law doesn't apply to batteries that are limited by the chemistry inherent in it's design it seems... H2 may be an alternative to battery energy storage, and it's dumb to write it off as a conspiracy of the oil companies.

Not sure I get your logic here, so any argument would be inefficient 
As for big oil conspiracy, automotive fuel is their business and they will pay their way to protect it. Same for the Professor- Company President whose "studies" are conducted with $$ being his main agenda.

[PJ]

You keep ignoring that electricity generation is just as 'dirty', and just like H2 is not considered zero-emission unless produced from green sources.  I'll give you that obviously pure electric cars are more efficient than using fuel cells.  Burning CNG or hydrogen in ICEs is not the answer either, there are efficiency and pollution-control gains to be made in centralizing the production to the primary energy source, instead of every car doing it themselves.  So it again comes down to where's that magic battery? 

Moore's Law doesn't apply to batteries that are limited by the chemistry inherent in it's design it seems... H2 may be an alternative to battery energy storage, and it's dumb to write it off as a conspiracy of the oil companies.

Not sure I get your logic here, so it's any argument would be inefficient 
As for big oil conspiracy, automotive fuel is their business and they will pay their way to protect it. Same for the Professor- Company President whose "studies" are conducted with $$ being his main agenda.

Fuel cells have failed for many reasons and big oil isn't one of them.  If someone did come up with a practical fuel cell the oil companies would jump into the business of producing and selling hydrogen. 

[WRX_Pilot]

You keep ignoring that electricity generation is just as 'dirty', and just like H2 is not considered zero-emission unless produced from green sources.  I'll give you that obviously pure electric cars are more efficient than using fuel cells.  Burning CNG or hydrogen in ICEs is not the answer either, there are efficiency and pollution-control gains to be made in centralizing the production to the primary energy source, instead of every car doing it themselves.  So it again comes down to where's that magic battery? 

Moore's Law doesn't apply to batteries that are limited by the chemistry inherent in it's design it seems... H2 may be an alternative to battery energy storage, and it's dumb to write it off as a conspiracy of the oil companies.

Not sure I get your logic here, so any argument would be inefficient 
As for big oil conspiracy, automotive fuel is their business and they will pay their way to protect it. Same for the Professor- Company President whose "studies" are conducted with $$ being his main agenda.

So any 'study' that doesn't support your opinion must be funded by greedy scientists?  That one is from (or at least endorsed by) the US department of Energy.  Same argument the global warming deniers use, all just a bunch of money hungry scientists I guess....   

[Guy]

[ Same argument the global warming deniers use, all just a bunch of money hungry scientists I guess....   

And who would be those scientists denying the global warming? Anybody we know?

[WRX_Pilot]

[ Same argument the global warming deniers use, all just a bunch of money hungry scientists I guess....   

And who would be those scientists denying the global warming? Anybody we know?

No, I'm saying that people who deny global warming (I'm not one of them), often claim that pro-global warming scientists are just fame and fortune hunters looking to sell books.

[Guy]

Sorry, I mis-understood your comment. 

[EV Dan]

You keep ignoring that electricity generation is just as 'dirty', and just like H2 is not considered zero-emission unless produced from green sources.  I'll give you that obviously pure electric cars are more efficient than using fuel cells.  Burning CNG or hydrogen in ICEs is not the answer either, there are efficiency and pollution-control gains to be made in centralizing the production to the primary energy source, instead of every car doing it themselves.  So it again comes down to where's that magic battery? 

Moore's Law doesn't apply to batteries that are limited by the chemistry inherent in it's design it seems... H2 may be an alternative to battery energy storage, and it's dumb to write it off as a conspiracy of the oil companies.

Not sure I get your logic here, so any argument would be inefficient 
As for big oil conspiracy, automotive fuel is their business and they will pay their way to protect it. Same for the Professor- Company President whose "studies" are conducted with $$ being his main agenda.

So any 'study' that doesn't support your opinion must be funded by greedy scientists?  That one is from (or at least endorsed by) the US department of Energy.  Same argument the global warming deniers use, all just a bunch of money hungry scientists I guess....   

No, it is written by hungry scientists and funded by greedy corporations 
Remember when Steven Chu became the head of DOE he said in his first speech smth like "there is no friggin way we'll waste any more resources on the doomed FC" [not his exact words] "Battery electric vehicle funding only from now on". The problem the guy was a scientist and not a politician. Over time his position has become softer. Money pulls a lot of strings in this wold.

[X-Traction]

There are multiple ways of making hydrogen, from fossil fuels is just the easiest way.  The same goes for creating electricity.  Of course both can be made with green methods, but hydrogen can be stored better than electricity.

Are you certain about this?  Hydrogen, due to it being the smallest molecule or something like that, happily seeps out of anywhere you try to contain it.  With the proliferation of electric cars, "surplus" electricity could be stored in them.  In fact, the grid could be more efficient if there was a draw for power during the nights, such as for recharging cars.

You can also "store" electricity by pumping water uphill, or reducing flow through hydro plants.

[PJ]

There are multiple ways of making hydrogen, from fossil fuels is just the easiest way.  The same goes for creating electricity.  Of course both can be made with green methods, but hydrogen can be stored better than electricity.

Are you certain about this?  Hydrogen, due to it being the smallest molecule or something like that, happily seeps out of anywhere you try to contain it.  With the proliferation of electric cars, "surplus" electricity could be stored in them.  In fact, the grid could be more efficient if there was a draw for power during the nights, such as for recharging cars.

You can also "store" electricity by pumping water uphill, or reducing flow through hydro plants.

You're totally correct about hydrogen. It was described to us as the Houdini of gases.  Can't imagine having aging poorly maintained cars with hydrogen tanks in an enclosed space like a parking garage. 

[EV Dan]

http://www.hyperproject.eu/page/4859/

"Hydrogen gas has a very low viscosity and so it is very difficult to prevent hydrogen systems from developing leaks. Pipe work that was ‘leak tight’ when pressure-tested with nitrogen will often be found to leak profusely when used on hydrogen duty.
Hydrogen leakage through welds, flanges, seals, gaskets, etc is an important consideration and an important design and operational issue for hydrogen systems.
The use of suitable sealing interfaces and appropriate components within a hydrogen system, however, will significantly reduce the likelihood of this occurring if fitted by a competent person. For high-pressure storage systems, hydrogen would leak nearly three times faster than natural gas and over five times faster than propane. However the low energy density of hydrogen means that it produces substantially lower energy leakage rates."

Well from the sound of it a spark from a garage door opener might send things flyin' high