Author Topic: Two very interesting articles from EE times  (Read 4268 times)


Offline mmret

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #1 on: November 04, 2013, 09:04:32 pm »
This is a dead horse, but anyway:

So I can believe that there might have been some sloppy code, but

1. A random bit flip is a massively unlikely scenario. Modern circuitry has such rapid rise/fall times on the output flops that getting one to go the "wrong way" is incredibly unlikely.  Once in a blue moon.

2. A random bit flip that just happens to affect the exact memory location or range of memory locations that just happens to cause the accelerator to go full blast without also shutting down fuel injection, timing, etc.?  Once in a blue moon squared.

3. Even if we get past both of the above highly unlikely conditions, we're also supposed to believe that this condition persisted for so long that some sort of "auto reset" did not kick in? Keep in mind firmware runs on a millisecond or nanosecond timescale. Two seconds is an eternity in this world - a well designed piece should have detected that the thing is going bonkers (probably due to the locking/death of various worker threads). But as its possible that the code was terrible, we can let this one slide.

4. And now if we get past all of 1, 2, and 3, we're also supposed to believe that at the same time, the brakes, a system which while partially electronic can be operated in a fully mechanical manner, also happened to fail at the same time?


EDIT: keep in mind that the alternative explanation is that the driver just :censor: up. You tell me which is more likely.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2013, 09:09:47 pm by mmret »
You can't just have your characters announce how they feel.
That makes me feel angry!

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Offline rrocket

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #2 on: November 04, 2013, 09:13:53 pm »
As far as I've read (I didn't read the above link) nobody has been able to duplicate any sort of issue.
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline mmret

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2013, 09:28:03 pm »
I only skimmed it but it sounded like in the article they hooked the ECU up to some diagnostic hardware and forcibly changed memory locations to get a certain result. Then the guy testified and said "this ECU is faulty!"

I guess it *can* happen, but I'd wager I'm more likely to die in a zombie apocalypse brought about by an asteroid impact.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2013, 09:30:03 pm »
I only skimmed it but it sounded like in the article they hooked the ECU up to some diagnostic hardware and forcibly changed memory locations to get a certain result. Then the guy testified and said "this ECU is faulty!"

I guess it *can* happen, but I'd wager I'm more likely to die in a zombie apocalypse brought about by an asteroid impact.

That's like me forcibly causing ANY car gas tank on the market to explode.

Same thing...

Offline mmret

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2013, 09:32:16 pm »
Or 60 minutes forcibly rigging that Audi

Offline johngenx

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2013, 09:44:59 pm »
Some TV show rigged the pick up trucks to explode.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2013, 09:48:10 pm »
^^Yep!

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #8 on: November 04, 2013, 09:50:55 pm »
I've seen enough weird :censor: happen in industrial control systems, that I'd automatically want a hardwired throttle interlock with the braking system that didn't rely on CPU logic.
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Offline rrocket

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #9 on: November 04, 2013, 09:52:05 pm »
I've seen enough weird :censor: happen in industrial control systems, that I'd automatically want a hardwired throttle interlock with the braking system that didn't rely on CPU logic.

Keep taking the bus.  Cars are not for you.   ;D

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #10 on: November 04, 2013, 09:53:47 pm »
I've seen enough weird :censor: happen in industrial control systems, that I'd automatically want a hardwired throttle interlock with the braking system that didn't rely on CPU logic.

Keep taking the bus.  Cars are not for you.   ;D

Cars that randomly do their own thing aren't for me.  ;D

Offline rrocket

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #11 on: November 04, 2013, 09:55:27 pm »
I've seen enough weird :censor: happen in industrial control systems, that I'd automatically want a hardwired throttle interlock with the braking system that didn't rely on CPU logic.

Keep taking the bus.  Cars are not for you.   ;D

Cars that randomly do their own thing aren't for me.  ;D

It's called "operator error" or "elderly driver".

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #12 on: November 04, 2013, 09:59:53 pm »
Possibly. But there wouldn't have been a case if they had put in a hardwired brake interlock. By being cheap, they left themselves wide open for this kind of action.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2013, 10:04:07 pm »
Possibly. But there wouldn't have been a case if they had put in a hardwired brake interlock. By being cheap, they left themselves wide open for this kind of action.

Many car makers.  Not just Toyota.  And several years, Ford had more UA cases than Toyota.

But hey...Toyota is evil.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #14 on: November 04, 2013, 10:07:47 pm »
Possibly. But there wouldn't have been a case if they had put in a hardwired brake interlock. By being cheap, they left themselves wide open for this kind of action.

Many car makers.  Not just Toyota.  And several years, Ford had more UA cases than Toyota.

But hey...Toyota is evil.

Anyone who has their safety systems run by the CPU is asking for trouble, especially with tens of thousands of lines of code and distributed processors. It was a hot potato and sooner or later someone was going to get burned. It could have been Ford, or GM or Nissan, but it wasn't. It was Toyota.



Offline KD

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #15 on: November 04, 2013, 10:10:20 pm »
I remember a few years ago that Steve Wozniak was making accusations about flawed code in the prius ecm. 

Offline rrocket

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #16 on: November 04, 2013, 10:12:36 pm »
I remember a few years ago that Steve Wozniak was making accusations about flawed code in the prius ecm.

He f-ed that up all on his own..and later admitted it.  He thought he knew how the cruise control on the Prius worked and accused it of causing the car to accelerate on it's own, when that wasn't the case.

For someone as bright as him...he sure looked stupid on that one.  He later said it was a "hoax".   ::)

Offline KD

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #17 on: November 04, 2013, 10:16:55 pm »
I remember a few years ago that Steve Wozniak was making accusations about flawed code in the prius ecm.

He f-ed that up all on his own..and later admitted it.  He thought he knew how the cruise control on the Prius worked and accused it of causing the car to accelerate on it's own, when that wasn't the case.

For someone as bright as him...he sure looked stupid on that one.  He later said it was a "hoax".   ::)

Yeah, that's right!  I fogot about that.  What a dick!   ::) Toyota should have sued the shiat out of him.

Offline Snowman

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2013, 12:38:30 pm »
 :foil:

Offline Black Hatch

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Re: Two very interesting articles from EE times
« Reply #19 on: November 06, 2013, 02:29:24 pm »
Not sure I believe the article but.
Some observations in regards to some Toyotas.

Pedal travel (for both brake/gas) seems to require more effort to notice the results.
Ie to get the brakes to fully engage you have to press the brake pedal farther (than comparable vehicles)

When you want to speed up, you have to press the gas pedal further.
Because of this you may think that the car is going nowhere (and hence push even farther) then whooosh you get a seemingly swift acceleration shock (maybe even unintended)

I guess some people just need to learn the intricacies of their vehicles.

Same as Mazda, if just slam the gas pedal, i'll get sudden acceleration/shift shock.
Have to slowly, steady and then firmly give it gas to accelerate correctly.