Topic: First Drive: 2014 Buick Regal GS

[dirtyjeffer]

personally, i just don't see it...why bother spending all that extra money (GM) to compete against the ATS?...it doesn't make sense.

Well that has "made sense" to GM since pretty much forever, hasn't it?  So is this essentially going to be a classic GM badge engineering exercise, or are there to be some meaningful differences between the two models (for clarity, hood ornaments and door handles and such don't count)?

GM hasn't done badge engineering in quite a long time, excepting the pickups. Platform sharing is common industry wide.

while i would agree it isn't as bad as it used to be, it still happens somewhat...the Buick Encore/Chevy Trax is an example.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

while i would agree it isn't as bad as it used to be, it still happens somewhat...the Buick Encore/Chevy Trax is an example.

They don't share any body panels and the interiors are completely different. The Buick is much quieter on the road and handles differently too.

Badge engineering is what happened to the J-cars. Most of the body panels and most of the interiors were identical. The only differences were interior trim and the front and rear clips.

[Jaeger]

^^^ Seems to me more a question of degree than of kind.  Badge engineering at its most cynical involves literally just swapping badges.  But a bit more differentiation that still results in two very similar vehicles that essentially compete against each other nets out to the same result, IMO.  In any event, I guess we'll judge the presence of absence of meaningful differences when the GS comes out.

[dirtyjeffer]

while i would agree it isn't as bad as it used to be, it still happens somewhat...the Buick Encore/Chevy Trax is an example.

They don't share any body panels and the interiors are completely different. The Buick is much quieter on the road and handles differently too.

Badge engineering is what happened to the J-cars. Most of the body panels and most of the interiors were identical. The only differences were interior trim and the front and rear clips.

which is why i said it isn't as "bad" as it once was...however, the Encore could simply be a Trax LE (Luxury Edition)...it's the same platform, same powertrain and basically the identical shape, with the "premium" being trim and content...look, i like the Encore, but to pretend it isn't a "luxury Trax" is rather silly.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

while i would agree it isn't as bad as it used to be, it still happens somewhat...the Buick Encore/Chevy Trax is an example.

They don't share any body panels and the interiors are completely different. The Buick is much quieter on the road and handles differently too.

Badge engineering is what happened to the J-cars. Most of the body panels and most of the interiors were identical. The only differences were interior trim and the front and rear clips.

which is why i said it isn't as "bad" as it once was...however, the Encore could simply be a Trax LE (Luxury Edition)...it's the same platform, same powertrain and basically the identical shape, with the "premium" being trim and content...look, i like the Encore, but to pretend it isn't a "luxury Trax" is rather silly.

It doesn't meet the definition of  "badge engineering" any more than the same term applied to the Genesis/Equus, or Avalon/ES350.

Sent from my G3 using Tapatalk 4

[Oldsguy]

which is why i said it isn't as "bad" as it once was...however, the Encore could simply be a Trax LE (Luxury Edition)...it's the same platform, same powertrain and basically the identical shape, with the "premium" being trim and content...look, i like the Encore, but to pretend it isn't a "luxury Trax" is rather silly.

Or like the Sonata and Optima. 

I eagerly await the litany of reasons why they are totally different, of course.

[Seafoam]

which is why i said it isn't as "bad" as it once was...however, the Encore could simply be a Trax LE (Luxury Edition)...it's the same platform, same powertrain and basically the identical shape, with the "premium" being trim and content...look, i like the Encore, but to pretend it isn't a "luxury Trax" is rather silly.

Or like the Sonata and Optima. 

I eagerly await the litany of reasons why they are totally different, of course.

I agree. You forgot accent-rio and elantra-forte as well.

[mixmanmash]

which is why i said it isn't as "bad" as it once was...however, the Encore could simply be a Trax LE (Luxury Edition)...it's the same platform, same powertrain and basically the identical shape, with the "premium" being trim and content...look, i like the Encore, but to pretend it isn't a "luxury Trax" is rather silly.

Or like the Sonata and Optima. 

I eagerly await the litany of reasons why they are totally different, of course.

I agree. You forgot accent-rio and elantra-forte as well.

Yep.  Absolutely.  If one is going to say that this is badge engineering, then one could say the same between many Kia / Hyundai products.

How about Infiniti / Nissan (QX56 vs Armada, JX vs Pathfinder), Lexus/Toyota (ES vs Avalon, Sequoia vs LX570), Lincoln/Ford (entire line up), Chrysler/Dodge (300 vs Charger, Town & Country vs Grand Caravan)?

[dirtyjeffer]

Or like the Sonata and Optima. 

I eagerly await the litany of reasons why they are totally different, of course.

well, they look quite different, even though they do share the platform and engine options...but they compete against each other, one isn't a step up from the other...Hyundai/Kia don't have a "premium" brand...so while i understand what you are saying, it isn't the same.

[whaddaiknow]

Or like the Sonata and Optima. 

I eagerly await the litany of reasons why they are totally different, of course.

well, they look quite different, even though they do share the platform and engine options...but they compete against each other, one isn't a step up from the other...Hyundai/Kia don't have a "premium" brand...so while i understand what you are saying, it isn't the same.

^^BINGO.

Hyundai/Kia don't compete with each other - they complement each other appealing to somewhat different tastes within the same class and price range. They are two companies each moving in its own direction while enjoying cost sharing.

Lexus/Toyota isn't a good example either. There is one fundamental distinction - all Lexus cars are built in Japan to much stricter build and QC standards using better/nicer materials thus commanding a price premium.

Encore is nothing more than a Trax with some lipstick. That's badge engineering at its worst.

I am glad to see Caddy is getting its act together by actually offering very distinct models despite some level of platform and powertrain sharing. No one is going to confuse the ATS with the new CTS or the XTS. All different models catering to different market segments.

Buick is still all about some bling like fugly fake chrome vents and additional sound insulation.

[sailor723]

Or like the Sonata and Optima. 

I eagerly await the litany of reasons why they are totally different, of course.

well, they look quite different, even though they do share the platform and engine options...but they compete against each other, one isn't a step up from the other...Hyundai/Kia don't have a "premium" brand...so while i understand what you are saying, it isn't the same.

^^BINGO.

Hyundai/Kia don't compete with each other - they complement each other appealing to somewhat different tastes within the same class and price range. They are two companies each moving in its own direction while enjoying cost sharing.

Lexus/Toyota isn't a good example either. There is one fundamental distinction - all Lexus cars are built in Japan to much stricter build and QC standards using better/nicer materials thus commanding a price premium.

Encore is nothing more than a Trax with some lipstick. That's badge engineering at its worst.

I am glad to see Caddy is getting its act together by actually offering very distinct models despite some level of platform and powertrain sharing. No one is going to confuse the ATS with the new CTS or the XTS. All different models catering to different market segments.

Buick is still all about some bling like fugly fake chrome vents and additional sound insulation.

Most Lexus RX's (their best selling model I believe) are built in Ontario.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Or like the Sonata and Optima. 

I eagerly await the litany of reasons why they are totally different, of course.

well, they look quite different, even though they do share the platform and engine options...but they compete against each other, one isn't a step up from the other...Hyundai/Kia don't have a "premium" brand...so while i understand what you are saying, it isn't the same.

^^BINGO.

Hyundai/Kia don't compete with each other - they complement each other appealing to somewhat different tastes within the same class and price range. They are two companies each moving in its own direction while enjoying cost sharing.

Lexus/Toyota isn't a good example either. There is one fundamental distinction - all Lexus cars are built in Japan to much stricter build and QC standards using better/nicer materials thus commanding a price premium.

Encore is nothing more than a Trax with some lipstick. That's badge engineering at its worst.

I am glad to see Caddy is getting its act together by actually offering very distinct models despite some level of platform and powertrain sharing. No one is going to confuse the ATS with the new CTS or the XTS. All different models catering to different market segments.

Buick is still all about some bling like fugly fake chrome vents and additional sound insulation.

"Complement each other"? Hosehockey.

Who, looking for a mid-sized car, isn't going to look at both the Sonata and Optima? They are direct competitors. They share a platform, they share powertrains. The only distinction is in suspension tuning, sheetmetal and interior trim. Just like most of the rest of the Hyundai/Kia lineup. If the Trax/Encore are badge engineered, then so are the Hyundai/Kias. But they aren't, because that's not the definition of badge engineering.

The Trax/Encore overlap on pricing, but they drive very differently. To me, the difference in interiors and sound insulation are worth the bump in price to get the Encore. For others, they'll be happy with the Trax and the accompanying lower prices.

The Encore and Trax aren't built in the same plants either. The Buick comes from Mexico and the Chev is sourced from South Korea.

[whaddaiknow]

Most Lexus RX's (their best selling model I believe) are built in Ontario.

Agree. Isn't that the one and only Lexus plant outside of Japan? Speaks of the quality of Canadian workforce.
The argument still stands. Lexus is superior to Toyota due to superior craftsmanship, build standards AND added luxury.

[whaddaiknow]

"Complement each other"? Hosehockey.

Who, looking for a mid-sized car, isn't going to look at both the Sonata and Optima? They are direct competitors. They share a platform, they share powertrains. The only distinction is in suspension tuning, sheetmetal and interior trim. Just like most of the rest of the Hyundai/Kia lineup. If the Trax/Encore are badge engineered, then so are the Hyundai/Kias. But they aren't, because that's not the definition of badge engineering.

The Trax/Encore overlap on pricing, but they drive very differently. To me, the difference in interiors and sound insulation are worth the bump in price to get the Encore. For others, they'll be happy with the Trax and the accompanying lower prices.

The Encore and Trax aren't built in the same plants either. The Buick comes from Mexico and the Chev is sourced from South Korea.

As opposed to GM, Kia and Hyundai started out as two competely separate car companies that ended up under the same umbrella. It's only natural for them to share the engineering talent in order to offer similar products to the same target audience. It would be stupid to do it otherwise. This works to (big) Hyundai's advantage as they get a chance to experiment with styling and various performence tuning for pretty much the same product while minimizing cost. That is, until both Kia and Hyundai brands can sculpt their own identities and cater different products to different audiences.
That notwithstanding, there will still be a lot of overlap of in engineering and production since they are both mainstream brands working in the same tier / snack bracket. Look at it as increased variety within the same company.

The fundamental difference you are still failing to see is that Chev / Buick / Caddy, for their uintents and purposes, target different categories in progressively higher price ranges. This is the fact that causes to raise an eye brow when you see a Trax with lipstick marketed as a premium brand car where in fact it is not.

Hyunday offers Sonata and Optima and different flavours of the same car at the same price and that's cool.
GM offers lipstick for the price of Louis Vitton (spelling?), exaggeration to illustrate the point.

And again, I am glad to see that Caddy is different enough so no one can say that ATS is a dressed up Cruze.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Avalon/ES350, 370Z/G37, Pathfinder/JLX, Genesis/Equus, US Accord/TL, Euro Accord/TSX, etc. Same platforms, same engines, different sheetmetal and different interiors. It's only a problem when GM does it. 

[whaddaiknow]

Avalon/ES350, 370Z/G37, Pathfinder/JLX, Genesis/Equus, US Accord/TL, Euro Accord/TSX, etc. Same platforms, same engines, different sheetmetal and different interiors. It's only a problem when GM does it. 

Avalon and ES350 - two totally different beasts. Designed from the ground up by two independent teams with Lexus actually built in Japan. Using the same powertrain is not a sin. They ended up very similar which is reflected in price (unlike GM).

Same with Genesis/Equus. There is more than just interior difference - Hyundai applies a completely different philosophy to the entire concept of Equus ownership.

US Accord and TL? Seriously?

Euro Accord/TSX - two variations of the same car offered for different markets with different expectations. Not offered side-by side. Honda realized its mistakes of late with the TSX so it's gone. And there won't be any Eurpean/US Accord anymore, same car for both markets. At least they show they can learn.

You were saying?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Avalon/ES350, 370Z/G37, Pathfinder/JLX, Genesis/Equus, US Accord/TL, Euro Accord/TSX, etc. Same platforms, same engines, different sheetmetal and different interiors. It's only a problem when GM does it. 

Avalon and ES350 - two totally different beasts. Designed from the ground up by two independent teams with Lexus actually built in Japan. Using the same powertrain is not a sin. They ended up very similar which is reflected in price (unlike GM).

Same with Genesis/Equus. There is more than just interior difference - Hyundai applies a completely different philosophy to the entire concept of Equus ownership.

US Accord and TL? Seriously?

Euro Accord/TSX - two variations of the same car offered for different markets with different expectations. Not offered side-by side. Honda realized its mistakes of late with the TSX so it's gone. And there won't be any Eurpean/US Accord anymore, same car for both markets. At least they show they can learn.

You were saying?

I'm saying that the distinctions you are trying to make are ephemeral at best and completely disingenuous at worst.

The Lexus ES can still be optioned up to be more expensive than the Avalon ($52k vs $42k), even thought there is significant price overlap.
Regardless of the ownership philosophy red herring, the Genesis and Equus are two versions of the same platform, one being more upscale than the other, the same as the other examples I gave.

The Trax and Encore were designed by two different teams from the same platform. The Encore is offered as the Opel Mokka in Europe. Most of its design and tuning was done by Opel. Most the design work on the Trax was done by GM Korea.

They are offered side by side in the Canadian market because of the dealership situation here. GM has Buick/GMC and Chevrolet/Cadillac dealers. Both need a small CUV, so it made sense to offer both. Things are different in the US, where they get the Encore, but not the Trax. I believe the situation is similar in China. In Europe, they offer the Mokka, and the Trax, but there are relatively few Chevrolet dealers, so there isn't as much overlap.

[whaddaiknow]

I think it's time for both of us to let it go. You keep insisting on one thing putting emphasis on certain aspects of things, I stick to my guns while disagreeing with you. That's fine.
It would have been much easier if it was all black and white but it's not. I tend to think in a darker shade of grey when it comes to modern Buick, you think in a lighter spectrum. We've established our distance, and so be it.
To me, Buick is still the Roadmaster of the 90's (Caprice with lipstick) which I drove and loved for what it was. That certainly affects my "judgement". I will readily admit my opinion is affected by a number of factors (being stupid isn't one of them). And so is yours, just in a different way than mine.

I know I am not very likely to buy a Buick ever, so it's all moot point. Having said that, GM is now making two cars that I like very much - Stingray and new CTS. So my opinion isn't based on my hatred of the company.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I think it's time for both of us to let it go. You keep insisting on one thing putting emphasis on certain aspects of things, I stick to my guns while disagreeing with you. That's fine.
It would have been much easier if it was all black and white but it's not. I tend to think in a darker shade of grey when it comes to modern Buick, you think in a lighter spectrum. We've established our distance, and so be it.
To me, Buick is still the Roadmaster of the 90's (Caprice with lipstick) which I drove and loved for what it was. That certainly affects my "judgement". I will readily admit my opinion is affected by a number of factors (being stupid isn't one of them). And so is yours, just in a different way than mine.

I know I am not very likely to buy a Buick ever, so it's all moot point. Having said that, GM is now making two cars that I like very much - Stingray and new CTS. So my opinion isn't based on my hatred of the company.

I don't think you're stupid, and I understand that everyone has their brand preferences and prejudices. I don't tend to linger on past digressions, and lord knows GM has had lots of them. Not everyone thinks this way, especially those that have been burned in the past.

We can certainly agree to disagree. 

[mixmanmash]

"Complement each other"? Hosehockey.

Who, looking for a mid-sized car, isn't going to look at both the Sonata and Optima? They are direct competitors. They share a platform, they share powertrains. The only distinction is in suspension tuning, sheetmetal and interior trim. Just like most of the rest of the Hyundai/Kia lineup. If the Trax/Encore are badge engineered, then so are the Hyundai/Kias. But they aren't, because that's not the definition of badge engineering.

The Trax/Encore overlap on pricing, but they drive very differently. To me, the difference in interiors and sound insulation are worth the bump in price to get the Encore. For others, they'll be happy with the Trax and the accompanying lower prices.

The Encore and Trax aren't built in the same plants either. The Buick comes from Mexico and the Chev is sourced from South Korea.

As opposed to GM, Kia and Hyundai started out as two competely separate car companies that ended up under the same umbrella. It's only natural for them to share the engineering talent in order to offer similar products to the same target audience. It would be stupid to do it otherwise. This works to (big) Hyundai's advantage as they get a chance to experiment with styling and various performence tuning for pretty much the same product while minimizing cost. That is, until both Kia and Hyundai brands can sculpt their own identities and cater different products to different audiences.
That notwithstanding, there will still be a lot of overlap of in engineering and production since they are both mainstream brands working in the same tier / snack bracket. Look at it as increased variety within the same company.

The fundamental difference you are still failing to see is that Chev / Buick / Caddy, for their uintents and purposes, target different categories in progressively higher price ranges. This is the fact that causes to raise an eye brow when you see a Trax with lipstick marketed as a premium brand car where in fact it is not.

Hyunday offers Sonata and Optima and different flavours of the same car at the same price and that's cool.
GM offers lipstick for the price of Louis Vitton (spelling?), exaggeration to illustrate the point.

And again, I am glad to see that Caddy is different enough so no one can say that ATS is a dressed up Cruze.

Oh really.  You do know that GM's brands were independent at some point in time.  Given, it was many, many decades, maybe over a century ago now.  So no, GM didn't start out with all of these brands.  They were acquired, just like Hyundai purchasing Kia.

You can do some reading here:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buick, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadillac, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac

I don't get the hate that people have for GM.  I mean, I am no GM lover either, but give it a rest already.  It's just about as annoying as having a Nissan fan on Toyota.  Hey, I'm a Nissan fan too, but not to the point where I on Toyota all day long.  All car manufacturers have theirs pros and cons.  As a consumer, I am happy that we have so much choice.  It makes it a better marketplace for all of us.

It's stupid to say it's badge engineering when GM does it, but when everyone else does it, we can say it isn't badge engineering or something else.  IMHO, if you want badge engineering, Ford/Lincoln is one of the worst for it.  GM has become a lot better in the last decade at showing distinction between the brands versus Ford/Lincoln.