Topic: First Drive: 2014 Toyota Corolla

[KD]

Four wheel discs on an economy compact are for show.  They have huge front weight bias and need the front discs, but the rear brakes aren't really working all that hard.  Also, the chassis of the car cries "uncle" before the brakes do.  The compact class all fall over onto their understeering knees before they can make enough speed to fry the brakes.  (Well, save for the limited production cars like the GTI...)

My Miata, though very light, has a 50/50 weight distribution and engages the rear tires more during hard braking.  It also has a "drive me HARD" mission, and the better fade resistance of the discs helps keep the car composed on the 50th bend of that very tight mountain road that you're driving at 8/10 or more.

Also, I'm not sure Mazda could have marketed the Miata with rear drums.  For model year 1994 they actually installed the Spec Racer brakes (up 1" from 90-93) recognizing that people were getting pretty frisky with the cars, and lots of people were competing in some form of motorsports with them.

If anyone's had the chance to put a 911 to the test in braking, even the old cars bite HARD.  The rear bias means that even under very hard braking (front weight shift) the rear tires get lots of action.

I think sports and high performance cars are the exception.  Especially as they are seasonal for the most part. But for reliability and longevity in an all season vehicle drums are the way to go especially in this neck of the woods as we get a lot of slush, sand and lots of other crap to wreak havoc on disc brakes!

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Bill Gardiner had a good segment on disc versus drum brakes last season:

http://www.motoringtv.com/bill-gardiner-s11563#Episode_24_-_Disk_vs_Drum_brakes

[Black Hatch]

As I said, not EVERYONE can afford to keep a second vehicle (be it space or price).
The fear I am saying is that each household being restricted to ONE vehicle... and it may as well be a Corolla.
Could you live with that?

No, but almost everyone could.  And it's always been like that.  There's never been a "do it all" vehicle that appeals to enthusiasts.

Everyone could?
Cost of the vehicle, Insurance, space, not everyone has a double-attached garage and not everyone makes $100k household income.

There's never a "do it all" vehicle, but there are compromises vehicles.
Like the Subaru STi.  Perfect family sedan (for enthusiasts) ?
 
I think I am thankful that I had the RX-8 when I did, I may not see another chance to get another RWD manual sports car.

All of the people we know have a minimum of 2 cars per household and have at least a double garage.  While you Toronto types might be happy living in a 300sq ft apartment on the 44th floor.....the ROC lives in houses.

Sent from my Galaxy S3

We have two cars ( but both just 4 cyl hatchbacks) and a small single garage  attached to a house.   Everyone we know has two cars. Including a single person. One couple has 4 cars, one fancy coupe, one winter AWD and two sports cars.

We could live with just the Fit...but why should we.  Somebody has to help use all the resources before the greenies and the back to the stone age people take over.

Why does a single person have two cars? The only scenario I can see is that one is a commuter and one is for track day... (IMHO the Corolla makes the perfect commuter car).

Don't fear the "greenies"... fear actually running out of the stuff that makes the modern western world go round. Better hope we innovate our way out of the corner we have ourselves backed into right now.

I guess my point was lost since no one can imagine the utopia where we only have one auto manufacturer Toyota and we can only have one car for our DD; sure two Toyotas for per household if you wish.
And the only Toyotas they are selling are the Corolla and Tundra. (What else do we need is essential? Needs not wants)
The new image of the Corolla will be a CVT hybrid and beige with an underpower reliable engine.
(Sorry in this world Scion FR-S, GT-86 don't exist)

What else do we need? Why do I need Tundra? Give me a minivan!!!!!

In this new universe (because it is oppressive and logical), you can at most have two kids, third if you are lucky and he will be called a "turd".
Thats why you don't need to carry more than five people.
Otherwise take a bus.

[Black Hatch]

Um? You expected a FWD compact to NOT burn the front tires when pushed? Its not AWD.

Drive a VW GTI.  Yeah, it still understeers, but nothing like the $20K compact cars.  It's probably the best FWD I've driven.  Of course, it's priced higher and NOT intended mass consumption.

Does the GTI not have much much more horsepower than these compact say like 200 hp?

You should have taken the test-drive driving up groat road and compared the Corolla and Mazda3 and feel which comes close to the limit.

I know lots of good roads easily accessible from the west end.  I don't do the standard "test drive loop" the dealers encourage.  I push them through some bends (one is an off camber corner with a dip in the middle, a real test) and on some rough spots, etc.  Comparing like models (so no big performance tires on one, etc) the 3 felt perhaps a tiny bit better in transitions, but otherwise not really any different than any of the other cars.

Ahaha you admit the Mazda3 better in performace!!!

Try it with a Corolla and tell me how comfortable (with the chassis, steering feedback) when you are at that speed.

The idea that a Corolla turns into a wobbling mass of jelly the instant the speed limit nears is wrong.  It's not an entertaining car to drive, but it is safe and composed.  This summer I chased a new Camaro up the Miette Hot Springs road in Jasper, and I think the Chev driver was more than a little surprised.

[/quote]

Interesting.
Many magazine/blogs cite that steering feel for the Corolla is lackluster at speed.
I would think that this would make me feel unsafe, not knowing the feel of the road.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2009-toyota-corolla-short-take-road-test-dynamically-average-with-one-major-flaw-page-2
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/sedans/1105_2011_toyota_corolla_le_test/interior.html

I would also think that the torsion beam (as opposed to independent rear suspension) would have made the Corolla an unwilling participant to turn.
You already admit that the Mazda3 is a bit better in transition, how much would you rate the Mazda3 performance-wise over the Corolla?
0%, 5%, 10%, 20% or somewhere in between?

For reference Car and Driver
Mazda3
Acceleration 0-60mph 7.9 s
Braking 70-0 183 ft

Corolla
Acceleration 0-60 8.6 s
Braking 70-0 194 ft

[Black Hatch]

I begrudgingly accepted that the Corolla had rear drums, and it may stop shorter than some of its competitors with discs all around, but that still doesn't seem acceptable to me for their use to remain so widespread.  I'd support every car having ceramic Brembo's for better emergency response.  It all comes down to economics, and I'd like to see the actual cost difference for rear drums:discs to justify their continued use when better tech is available.

We all talk about car safety features when a crash occurs - I'd rather we focus on crash avoidance.

So you would rather have a car with 4 discs that takes longer to stop than one with rear drums that takes less distance to top?

I don't think the Corolla (with drums) stops better than some of the 4-wheel disc competitors.
In Car and Driver 70-0 braking
Regular Corolla (2-disc/2-drum) braked at 194 ft.
Corolla S (4-wheel disc) braked at 175 ft

4-wheel disc brakes should stop better than most 2-wheel disc/2-drum setups.
Maybe 5 to 10% better. (Of course the faster you are going the farther the stopping distance)

In regards to 4-wheel discs vs 2-disc/2 drums, I think there would be more front brake dive in the drum setup because a comparable rear disc could take on more of the load than a rear drum.... dependant on brake size of course...  I could be wrong 

[johngenx]

S model has a lot more tire.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

In regards to 4-wheel discs vs 2-disc/2 drums, I think there would be more front brake dive in the drum setup because a comparable rear disc could take on more of the load than a rear drum.... dependant on brake size of course...  I could be wrong

When you hit the brakes, weight transfers forward, loading the front suspension and unloading the rear. This weight transfer being the case, front brakes supply roughly 70% of braking power. Rear brakes are as important for stability as actual braking.

[johngenx]

Same principle as a motorcycle.  Most have two massive discs on the front, and a small disc on the rear.  Not that long ago even some pretty high performance bikes had a drum in the rear.  The fronts do all the stopping, and you add rear brake for stability.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Same principle as a motorcycle.  Most have two massive discs on the front, and a small disc on the rear.  Not that long ago even some pretty high performance bikes had a drum in the rear.  The fronts do all the stopping, and you add rear brake for stability.

It didn't take long to learn that leaning on the brake pedal on a modern bike easily got the tail wagging. On my old bikes the rear drums didn't have much bite,and the long wheelbases kept at least some weigh on the rear. First time I tried that on something modern (at the time) YZF600, I was sideways.

[rrocket]

If you threw my back brakes in the garbage on my race bike, I could get through the whole year with little worry.

Rarely used them on the track..

[Noto]

So you would rather have a car with 4 discs that takes longer to stop than one with rear drums that takes less distance to top?

Not even remotely what I said, but to clarify:

I would rather a car with 2 drums that stops shorter than one with 4 discs - for sure, but in reality, drums can't dissipate heat as well and have a harder time getting grit and crud out.  Repeated or prolonged braking (from higher speeds) will show much better performance out of discs than drums.

...and at 183.1 inches measured by MT, this thing isn't so compact any more.

[Vanstar]

I don't get the hate for the Corolla.  It's not an enthusiast car, and never will be.  Toyota has designed it to appeal to the greatest number of people possible.  This thing is all about sales, pure and simple.  It's not a niche car.  The vast majority of buyers want a comfortable car that gets excellent fuel economy, lasts a long time, is cheap to insure (premiums not driven up by ricer-racer claims), and holds it's value.

"Where's the 200hp version?"

Uh, why?  Other than a few folks kicking around here, 99.99% of Corolla buyers don't even know how many horsepower their cars has!  Seriously!  They just care that it has enough that it feels peppy.  "But Honda sells the Si."  Yes, they do. But Toyota is going after the mass market, period.

"Where's the nineteen speed DSG-style transmission." 

This car is $19,500 in what will be the most popular model/trim.  That price includes a CVT, LED headlamps, AC/Cruise/Etc, and a TON of safety gear including knee airbags.  Ask 99.99% of Corolla buyers how many gears in the transmission, and they don't care.  Enough that it feels right and gets great fuel economy.

"The handling needs to be razor sharp!!"

Why?  Oh, yeah, I forgot, the Corolla is THE autocross machine everyone's been waiting for!  Seriously, 99.99% of owners want a comfortable ride with predictable handling that has no surprises.  Toyota is not going after the small number of Si buyers, etc.  They're going wide, really wide.

"No rear discs!!??"

Our 2700lb Corolla stops very well.  It rides on pretty conservative tires (though we have H-rated performance tires on ours) and the brakes work very well.  Maybe not a on track day or with the car being wrung out on a mountain road, but who does that in a Corolla?  The rear drums work more than well enough.  And they LAST.  Our car has 125K on it, and the rear shoes are barely half worn.  It's a very front heavy FWD car that has no performance mission whatsoever.

Would I buy a Corolla for myself?  No.  Is it the PERFECT car for my missus?  Yes.  She has no idea of how many HP the engine makes or the number of speeds in the transmission or whether it has rear discs or not.  Really.  She has no clue about those things.  She knows it will go 550-600km on 42L of fuel in all city driving and over 800km on the highway.  She knows it costs $600/yr to insure.  She knows it has never needed a repair and rarely needs servicing.  She knows it rides nicely and never surprises her when she turns the wheel or uses one of the pedals.  (unlike some other cars we've owned)  Perfect.  So perfect in fact, that she'd never consider another brand were she shopping today.  If she needed a new car, she'd go to the Toyota dealer and find something there.  Maybe a RAV, or Venza, or another sedan.  Probably another Corolla.

How is that bad business?  If I were an auto exec, I'd dream about creating customers like that.  Toyota has LOTS of them.

We also have a Corolla and Mrs Vanstar loves it for all the same reasons. I don't like the car at all, but I respect that Toyota has set the benchmark for small cars for years. They have sold something like 30,000,000 of the things. They are all over the world.

Don't like the Corolla? Well, don't buy one. But my experience is that weboards aside, not that many people drive 400 hp RWD cars.

[mixmanmash]

We also have a Corolla and Mrs Vanstar loves it for all the same reasons. I don't like the car at all, but I respect that Toyota has set the benchmark for small cars for years. They have sold something like 30,000,000 of the things. They are all over the world.

Don't like the Corolla? Well, don't buy one. But my experience is that weboards aside, not that many people drive 400 hp RWD cars.

That's the truth.  I personally wouldn't drive one.  I have 2 employees that drive them.  Nothing wrong with that.  In terms of benchmark, I don't think it's really good at anything, besides being reliable and fuel efficient.  Nothing else.  Definitely not a handling champ (that crown would go to Mazda 3 or Civic), not the fastest, not the most stylish, but definitely reliable, trustworthy and fuel efficient.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

It just dawned on me that this is the first time in a long time that I don't have any friends or aquaintences that currently have a Toyota let alone a Corolla/Matrix.

My brother in law traded in his Sienna a number of years ago for an Avalanche, and he was the last Toyota owner in the family. He just "wanted something different".

I've had four Toyotas counting the Vibe. My brother had two, Dad had two, brother in law had one, then a bunch of friends had them at one time or another. Corollas and Tercels were to go-to for reliable transport through the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s for that group.

[johngenx]

Almost all my friends have a Subaru, a Toyota, or some of each.  I look a little out of place at trailheads now with the Highlander parked with all the Foresters, OBWs and Impreza HBs.

[dkaz]

...and at 183.1 inches measured by MT, this thing isn't so compact any more.

Whoa, my Mazda 5 was 180.5", the new Kia Rondo is 178.1"...

[pi314]

...and at 183.1 inches measured by MT, this thing isn't so compact any more.

Whoa, my Mazda 5 was 180.5", the new Kia Rondo is 178.1"...

My 2011 Corolla is longer than my parent's 2008 Rondo.

[Waterlooresident]

I'm 5' 9" and I drive a 2006 Corolla.  I raise up the driver's seat to it's highest position and I like it that way because I get a FANTASTIC view of the road out in front of me !    It's almost like riding a motorcycle; you get to see the pavement zipping underneath you. Plus, in parking lots, you can see the cars so well, you can easily judge distances and not bang into anything. 

That high-view out of a car is something that is lost these days with the modern designs.  All they want to do is 'LOOK COOL', but the driver's don't have as great a view of the pavement as they once did. 

Today I went to a Hyundai dealership (Guelph, Ontario) and sat in a Elantra GT. I raised the seats up to the top of it's adjustment and while it was okay, it was nowhere near as good as my old 2006 Corolla !   However, it wasn't that much worse and I was okay with it. If i had to drive an Elantra I would add 2 inch spacers under the seat and then i'd have the same great view as my 2006 Corolla. I know I could do that because there was LOTS of headroom even with the seat up to it's upper-most setting.

Next; I went to the next-door Toyota dealership (Guelph) and sat in a 2014 Corolla.  The plastic interior smelled funny, a very strong plastic's smell (the Hyundai didn't smell at all, it was normal).  I liked the interior design of the Corolla more, but the dash was way too high, couldn't see much of the floor of the showroom ahead of the car !   I raised the seat up higher, right up to the top of the adjustments, and I could see the top of the hood of the car, but my head was almost brushing up against the roof of the car.  In that position, I had a view of the road that was NOT as good as the Elantra, and there was NOT enough extra headroom to be able to add 2" spacers to the seat of the car for a great view.  I know for sure that when it comes time to buy my next car, I'm NOT buying another Corolla, it will probably be an Elantra, or another used 2006, 7, or 8 Corolla instead. 

Next; I sat in a Scion tC and it was even worse than the Corolla. Now I can see where they are getting the design cues for the Corolla from;, its from the tC.   The hood and dash of the tC is even higher, and the roof of the tC is even lower.  I raised the seat of the tC up to the top and my head was right up against the roof of the car, and yet the view of the road ahead of the car was downright awful.  It's a nice looking car, but just awful to drive and park anywhere.   No thanks, not my sort of ride.

After that, I went to the nearby Toyota Yaris and was expecting another disappointment yet was pleasantly surprised. The seat in the Yaris rises quite high and there was quite a nice view of the road out in front of that little thing. The interior was also nice and black, sporty like and no beige in sight  (unlike the Corolla).  So if I had to get a new Toyota and my budget was unlimited, I would pick the cheapest car they have; they Yaris, since it offers the best view of any of the cars.   However, the Elantra is much nicer in every way, and I'm going with Elantra instead.   

Don't even get me going on the Mazda3 and the fact that those designers FORGOT to include an analog speedometer on that thing !!!  What a HUGE MISTAKE !!

My lady-friend's 2006 Mazda3 has the same type of great view of the road as my old 2006 Corolla;  she has her driver's seat raised to the maximum height and you can see the pavement about 5 feet ahead of the bumper.  With the new 2014 Corolla you can see the pavement of the road about 25 feet ahead of the car's front bumper. That might not seem like much but it can mean all the difference in the world in a crowded mall parking lot.  ( bashed bumper corners of other cars, or not bashed.)

[Frontier1]

The Elantra is an excellent choice.

[dkaz]

The 2014 Mazda 3 definitely has a tach. It's front and centre in the GT with a digital speedometer much like the FRS, and it's to the left of an analogue speedometer in the GX and GS trims, albeit a bit small. Do you drive manual? I mostly shift by feel these days anyway.

How do you find the Corolla seats? I had to get rid of my 08 after just a year because I found the seats to be unbearable for any trips over an hour. And I usually position my seat low low low to the ground. have you considered SUVs?