Topic: Comparison Test: Sport Sedans

[jyarkony]

I'm a sheep because I'm not a cheap w.h.o.r.e and understand the notion that nicer stuff costs more money?

Go ahead, buy a 30 thousand dollar sports sedan and let me know how it stacks up.

At $30K the FR-S is a great car. My point being is that these cars are not twice the car but are priced at twice or more.

It's about value for the price. Even nicer stuff have an inherent value. In this case it's just become skewed and we the public have allowed that. That's my point.

The S4 is twice the car the FR-S is. It is totally functional as an all-year, family vehicle, with superb luxury equipment and features and is still massively entertaining to drive. The FR-S/BRZ is an excellent drivetrain and sports car for couples or as an extra car, but as a commuter it's not so great and the interior is weak - but that's exactly how I'd keep it to keep costs low. That being said, if i could afford the specific $30K for a track car, I'd gladly give Subaru $30K for the BRZ or perhaps an MX-5. my biggest fear with that car is that they will listen to customers that want more space, better quality, instead of more focused performance.

As to the Acura, a TL SH-AWD might have fit, but there are limits to how many cars we can handle logistically, and frankly, didn't think the TL would be competitive with these cars. As to its size, it is quite a bit longer than any of these, but the wheelbase is shorter than the A4 and 3 Series... Also, the pricing of the fully loaded TL would probably undercut even the C-Class - Acura is simply playing in a sub-luxury segment with Buick right now. TL or TSX vs Regal GS might be a more fitting comparo of FWD near-luxury.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

So the best sports sedans were chosen on the size of their trunk and interior? What is this, Consumer Reports?  

Good review. No quibbles from me. This time.

[jyarkony]

So the best sports sedans were chosen on the size of their trunk and interior? What is this, Consumer Reports?  

Good review. No quibbles from me. This time.

don't joke, with a finish this close, a number of minor categories might have tipped the scales, but these comparisons are about doing a lot of things well, not necessarily just one thing excellently.

And Michael's point about the configuring the BMW as desired online - if i could get the BMW configurator to work, that is - is right on the money. Even a set of 19-inch wheels to match the Audi might have tipped the scales, dynamically and visually. I think of those two as both winners, because they are both excellent all-rounders while still being great sport sedans. I can't wait to see what the IS and Q50 bring to the table to compete with these two.

[jyarkony]

I'm a sheep because I'm not a cheap w.h.o.r.e and understand the notion that nicer stuff costs more money?

Go ahead, buy a 30 thousand dollar sports sedan and let me know how it stacks up.

At $30K the FR-S is a great car. My point being is that these cars are not twice the car but are priced at twice or more.

It's about value for the price. Even nicer stuff have an inherent value. In this case it's just become skewed and we the public have allowed that. That's my point.

The S4 is twice the car the FR-S is. It is totally functional as an all-year, family vehicle, with superb luxury equipment and features and is still massively entertaining to drive. The FR-S/BRZ is an excellent drivetrain and sports car for couples or as an extra car, but as a commuter it's not so great and the interior is weak - but that's exactly how I'd keep it to keep costs low. That being said, if i could afford the specific $30K for a track car, I'd gladly give Subaru $30K for the BRZ or perhaps an MX-5. my biggest fear with that car is that they will listen to customers that want more space, better quality, instead of more focused performance.

As to the Acura, a TL SH-AWD might have fit, but there are limits to how many cars we can handle logistically, and frankly, didn't think the TL would be competitive with these cars. As to its size, it is quite a bit longer than any of these, but the wheelbase is shorter than the A4 and 3 Series... Also, the pricing of the fully loaded TL would probably undercut even the C-Class - Acura is simply playing in a sub-luxury segment with Buick right now. TL or TSX vs Regal GS might be a more fitting comparo of FWD near-luxury.

You're right in that it's not competitive and it would place last. However, as I just found out when purchasing and test drive vehicles of this class, the TL is an interesting value proposition in that it doesn't give up too much performance based on the others, it is bigger, and comes standard with a lot of features that would cost you dearly to option with the rest. It's also AWD and you can get it in a manual.

If you can get over the looks, I think this sucks in a lot of people (myself included) when they see how far their 50K can go. In a perfect world I would have included it as a "counter point" of the test. "So you want a sport sedan but can't afford a BMW."  lol

I actually think the TL looks great, beak and all!

but yeah, i agree that it might have made an interesting counterpoint, much like the Volvo, but a more affordable, reliable, larger vehicle. Once we start doing price-point Comparisons - i.e. best family vehicle for $25K (Caravan, Mazda5, Accord), best luxury car for $50K (TL, Genesis, A4), then it'll be a better fit. It should be due for an update anyway, then we'll see where to compare it.

[jamesautos]

surprise surprise.... the most expensive car took the 1st spot while the cheapest one took the last spot


where is the AMG C63 (MSRP $65,300) if you are testing the Audi S4 as test $68,740?!?!?!

[canuckystan]

It's called BRANDING.  They charge a premium because they can and they don't cater to or want poor schmucks buying their cars.

No company is required to offer "twice the car for twice the money."

You think a Bentley is "worth" $300k+ when you look at all the mechanical bits?

I'm a sheep because I'm not a cheap w.h.o.r.e and understand the notion that nicer stuff costs more money?

Go ahead, buy a 30 thousand dollar sports sedan and let me know how it stacks up.

At $30K the FR-S is a great car. My point being is that these cars are not twice the car but are priced at twice or more.

It's about value for the price. Even nicer stuff has an inherent. In this case it's just become skewed and we the public have allowed that. That's my point.

In your opinion.  The FR-S is filled with plastic, has a 4 cylinder engine, and peaks at 151 lb ft of torque.

I'm sure there are MANY people who feel an S4 is twice the car. 

It's all relative...

[Rupert]

   I suppose some want a manual but can not think why in these cars. Sure you see adds showing neck breaking speed in impossible places but these things are cruisers surely with attributes that have no place to go here. It's all about swank and dreaming when all of the time we have a 60 reality. It's like the add 'we can take you...will you go'. Well the answer for the most part is no...I want to go to the shoping centre or the cottage at Sauble Beach. But I want to be able to do those things...never will though.
   The FR-S is in fact more than equal because it provides what it intended to do in spades...more than enough anyway, in attributes that some are trying to apply to these quality sedans where they do not fit. Still, I could realy enjoy a leisurely drive through the eastern provinces in any one of these cars...powering up the hill out of Riviere du Loup and the run down to the ocean. I can also see that I would be more inclined to take the FR-S if that option was available and take the 'B' roads with the stick and well matched mechanicals and (well I hope the brakes are good) my heels are all worn down. This is what we all crave for secretly...or not so secretly; the joy of a good 'B' class road with a ballanced light car and the time to enjoy it. I have the time anyway but ageing buns might let me down. Perhaps...only perhaps...the highway with a pretender will have to do.

[ChaosphereIX]

no arguments from me, nice to see the Volvo not place last. A great sport sedan there if you could get some more steering feel from it - some roll bars and braces and you are set.

Audi is really on a roll and I dont see them letting up at all. The S4 is a monster, especially after tuned, and it is one fo the most comfortable yet sporty cars I have ever been in.

Great time to buy a sport sedan people, lost of choice!

[Spec5]

Nice review - too bad they don't offer the M3 or C63 in AWD. To see the C class come in last place was a bit of a surprise to me. I've driven the new C63 AMG Coupe and its a stunning car both interior and dynamically. To see a variation of it finish dead last just reinforces the point that you can't really go wrong with any of these cars - they'd all be a hoot to own and its likely up to your personal brand preference. A bit disappointed that no child seat tests were done since you're looking at sport "sedans" I would like to have seen comments about how well such devices would work in these more performance oriented vehicles. Of particular concern I think would be the ATS considering how tight it sounds like it already is back there.

[whaddaiknow]

As to the Acura, a TL SH-AWD might have fit, but there are limits to how many cars we can handle logistically, and frankly, didn't think the TL would be competitive with these cars. As to its size, it is quite a bit longer than any of these, but the wheelbase is shorter than the A4 and 3 Series... Also, the pricing of the fully loaded TL would probably undercut even the C-Class - Acura is simply playing in a sub-luxury segment with Buick right now. TL or TSX vs Regal GS might be a more fitting comparo of FWD near-luxury.

Now you've given me something to b1tch about.

There is no conveivable way an Acura shopper would cross shop the TL with a Buick. Acura is still a Honda which is more associated with excellent engineering, awesome engines, sweet manual transmissions (and boy racers too) while Buick is still hopelessly stuck with the old man's car stigma. Two opposite spectrums.

Secondly, the TL is near luxury but so are entry level luxury compacts from ze Germans, let alone the Volvo which is labeled as "premium" at best. The C-class is a leap behind the E-class in luxury, so Acura would fit quite nicely.

I think you are jumping to conclusions without giving the old timer a chance. The SH-AWD system is very good, the engine is potent, the manual is sweet and the interior appointments will easily rival the others. I'd vote it in and see how it fares. I doubt it would finish last.

[dasiuyan]

Really enjoy reading the whole articles. I am not surprise about the result; and I found the similar observations with other

• Winning order relatively the same with the as tested price
• Biggest Trunk Wins
• Spacious interior wins

This pretty much reflects :

• Common pricing scheme of European cars: options drive up the base price by as much as 15k with the same engine-which car enthusiasts value their purchase from.
  
• We lives in this world of compromise. If not, we could just get a Ferrari for summer cruising/track day. A Tesla for going to downtown for lunch. A Land Rover for a snowstorm day. A G-class for outdoor adventure.....

Honestly I would like to see comparison of the more mainstream trim/model: A4 2.0T, BMW 328, ATS 2.0, S60 2.5T, C300, IS250. I think it would reflects our more price/fuel conscious Canadian market. But less so with our forum practitioners.

[whaddaiknow]

But yeah, I didn't really cross shop the TL with any Buick. I cross shopped it against the A4, 3 series, 5 series, G37, M37, and A6.

Exactly, with the TL tipping the scale for many because of its overall value as a (near)luxury premium-sized car while giving up little in performance.

[Car Guy]

Just bought the 2013 Volvo S60 R Design.  I could NOT deny the price and warranty and service/maintenance advantage.  None of those things seemed to be factored into the comparison.  Fair enough, but I'm telling you that all those things do factor into the real world buying decision.  By the way, I traded my 2007 3 Series Coupe on the Volvo.  That in itself is a bit of an indicator.

[SaskSpecV]

Once we start doing price-point Comparisons - i.e. best family vehicle for $25K (Caravan, Mazda5, Accord), best luxury car for $50K (TL, Genesis, A4), then it'll be a better fit.

Great idea - I think price-point comparisons are more relevant for consumers than price-is-no-object "category" comparos such as this one.  I suspect more consumers shop by "price range" (i.e., 25K budget, or $400/month) than by "segment" (vehicle HAS to be a midsize sedan, compact CUV, sport sedan, etc.) 

But seeing the difficulty autos.ca has in getting specific trims of test vehicles - do you think such a price-point comparison is feasible?  If you told Honda, Dodge, and Mazda about your 25K Accord/Caravan/5 comparison, would Honda actually give you a base Accord? Dodge actually give you a $25K Caravan?  Seems like they only want to give you the highest trims, with the highest MSRPs...  OTOH, it might be a good incentive for some of the MNFRs to "re-equilibrate" their CDN MSRPs to actually reflect transaction price reality - i.e., assuming the current transaction price of a mid-level Caravan is around $25K, is it still eligible to compete if the MSRP is $34K?

[ChaosphereIX]

As to the Acura, a TL SH-AWD might have fit, but there are limits to how many cars we can handle logistically, and frankly, didn't think the TL would be competitive with these cars. As to its size, it is quite a bit longer than any of these, but the wheelbase is shorter than the A4 and 3 Series... Also, the pricing of the fully loaded TL would probably undercut even the C-Class - Acura is simply playing in a sub-luxury segment with Buick right now. TL or TSX vs Regal GS might be a more fitting comparo of FWD near-luxury.

Now you've given me something to b1tch about.

There is no conveivable way an Acura shopper would cross shop the TL with a Buick. Acura is still a Honda which is more associated with excellent engineering, awesome engines, sweet manual transmissions (and boy racers too) while Buick is still hopelessly stuck with the old man's car stigma. Two opposite spectrums.

Secondly, the TL is near luxury but so are entry level luxury compacts from ze Germans, let alone the Volvo which is labeled as "premium" at best. The C-class is a leap behind the E-class in luxury, so Acura would fit quite nicely.

I think you are jumping to conclusions without giving the old timer a chance. The SH-AWD system is very good, the engine is potent, the manual is sweet and the interior appointments will easily rival the others. I'd vote it in and see how it fares. I doubt it would finish last.

Buick is working hard to get the cobwebs and Worther's Originals out of their closet. Turbo Verano with a 6sp? Regal GS with AWD and a 6sp? Soon to be announced Grand National? Buick is trying here, it takes time to turn your image around...just ask Lexus.

Also, I certainly would cross-shop a Buick with an Acura. Actually that isnt true, I would never consider an Acura in the first place....

[Solstice2006]

I'm a sheep because I'm not a cheap w.h.o.r.e and understand the notion that nicer stuff costs more money?

Go ahead, buy a 30 thousand dollar sports sedan and let me know how it stacks up.

At $30K the FR-S is a great car. My point being is that these cars are not twice the car but are priced at twice or more.

It's about value for the price. Even nicer stuff have an inherent value. In this case it's just become skewed and we the public have allowed that. That's my point.

The S4 is twice the car the FR-S is. It is totally functional as an all-year, family vehicle, with superb luxury equipment and features and is still massively entertaining to drive. The FR-S/BRZ is an excellent drivetrain and sports car for couples or as an extra car, but as a commuter it's not so great and the interior is weak - but that's exactly how I'd keep it to keep costs low. That being said, if i could afford the specific $30K for a track car, I'd gladly give Subaru $30K for the BRZ or perhaps an MX-5. my biggest fear with that car is that they will listen to customers that want more space, better quality, instead of more focused performance.

As to the Acura, a TL SH-AWD might have fit, but there are limits to how many cars we can handle logistically, and frankly, didn't think the TL would be competitive with these cars. As to its size, it is quite a bit longer than any of these, but the wheelbase is shorter than the A4 and 3 Series... Also, the pricing of the fully loaded TL would probably undercut even the C-Class - Acura is simply playing in a sub-luxury segment with Buick right now. TL or TSX vs Regal GS might be a more fitting comparo of FWD near-luxury.

Would have to completey agree on everything. I prefer the Subaru BRZ to the FR-S.  And my fear is that they will change the product as the years go by, where as itīs a great product now.  And I agree Acura is in the sub-luxury segment with Buick.  Some may argue that people donīt cross shop these brands, thats not the point, neither of them are luxury brands.  Just like the VW CC is not mainstream, its in between mainstream and luxury.   

[Solstice2006]

Just bought the 2013 Volvo S60 R Design.  I could NOT deny the price and warranty and service/maintenance advantage.  None of those things seemed to be factored into the comparison.  Fair enough, but I'm telling you that all those things do factor into the real world buying decision.  By the way, I traded my 2007 3 Series Coupe on the Volvo.  That in itself is a bit of an indicator.

Thatīs a good point, but none of there comparisons or test drives have used warranty, service/maintenance or reliability for that matter as indicators.  What might be interesting, would be a comparison on the used car review section, on compacts, mid-size sedans, luxury sedans, CUVs and SUVs.  I mean if they run out of stuff to test drive, and after filling in the 2013 Buyers Guide... These guys are busy....

[ChaosphereIX]

Just bought the 2013 Volvo S60 R Design.  I could NOT deny the price and warranty and service/maintenance advantage.  None of those things seemed to be factored into the comparison.  Fair enough, but I'm telling you that all those things do factor into the real world buying decision.  By the way, I traded my 2007 3 Series Coupe on the Volvo.  That in itself is a bit of an indicator.

Thatīs a good point, but none of there comparisons or test drives have used warranty, service/maintenance or reliability for that matter as indicators.  What might be interesting, would be a comparison on the used car review section, on compacts, mid-size sedans, luxury sedans, CUVs and SUVs.  I mean if they run out of stuff to test drive, and after filling in the 2013 Buyers Guide... These guys are busy....

I think that is a good idea. Because lets face it, used is how most of us would even be able to get into one of these. WAY outside of my budget, that is for sure.

[whaddaiknow]

Buick is working hard to get the cobwebs and Worther's Originals out of their closet. Turbo Verano with a 6sp? Regal GS with AWD and a 6sp? Soon to be announced Grand National? Buick is trying here, it takes time to turn your image around...just ask Lexus.

Also, I certainly would cross-shop a Buick with an Acura. Actually that isnt true, I would never consider an Acura in the first place....

Difference is, Acura is a very well known quantity, and very good as it is. While Buick, as you yourself put it, is still trying hard. Let them continue trying and I wish them all the success in the future.

GM is trying hard and that means they are experimenting too much. The longevity of those experiements is questionable. Look at ATS, it gave up everything for the sake of performance. It's no longer a Caddy, it's a BMW impersonator. Who will they want to impersonate tomorrow? While they are at it, I'll stick with the originals.

Buick sacrificed its core strength in pursuit of a younger buyer. Was it worth it? Time will tell.

While I want to live my life today. TL for me any day. Thank you.

[ChaosphereIX]

As to the Acura, a TL SH-AWD might have fit, but there are limits to how many cars we can handle logistically, and frankly, didn't think the TL would be competitive with these cars. As to its size, it is quite a bit longer than any of these, but the wheelbase is shorter than the A4 and 3 Series... Also, the pricing of the fully loaded TL would probably undercut even the C-Class - Acura is simply playing in a sub-luxury segment with Buick right now. TL or TSX vs Regal GS might be a more fitting comparo of FWD near-luxury.

"But on a racetrack, the TL showed us exactly why Acura used the word "super" to describe its Super-Handling All-Wheel-Drive system. Despite its significant power advantage, the Audi S4's fastest lap beat the TL's by only 0.4 second.

Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1008_2010_acura_tl_sh_awd_vs_2010_audi_s4/viewall.html#ixzz1ddf1Iok3

In terms of performance, it would be more than a match.  Now add in more attractive pricing, better crash performance, and better longer term reliability and cost of ownership and....

but it is sooooo ugly...