Topic: Comparison Test: Sport Sedans

[bombastic]

   I suppose some want a manual but can not think why in these cars. Sure you see adds showing neck breaking speed in impossible places but these things are cruisers surely with attributes that have no place to go here. It's all about swank and dreaming when all of the time we have a 60 reality. It's like the add 'we can take you...will you go'. Well the answer for the most part is no...I want to go to the shoping centre or the cottage at Sauble Beach. But I want to be able to do those things...never will though.
   The FR-S is in fact more than equal because it provides what it intended to do in spades...more than enough anyway, in attributes that some are trying to apply to these quality sedans where they do not fit. Still, I could realy enjoy a leisurely drive through the eastern provinces in any one of these cars...powering up the hill out of Riviere du Loup and the run down to the ocean. I can also see that I would be more inclined to take the FR-S if that option was available and take the 'B' roads with the stick and well matched mechanicals and (well I hope the brakes are good) my heels are all worn down. This is what we all crave for secretly...or not so secretly; the joy of a good 'B' class road with a ballanced light car and the time to enjoy it. I have the time anyway but ageing buns might let me down. Perhaps...only perhaps...the highway with a pretender will have to do.

Coupe over a sedan? Its nice you like BRZ, but is obviously not in the same leagues with the ones from the test.

[bombastic]

But yeah, I didn't really cross shop the TL with any Buick. I cross shopped it against the A4, 3 series, 5 series, G37, M37, and A6.

Exactly, with the TL tipping the scale for many because of its overall value as a (near)luxury premium-sized car while giving up little in performance.

So can you tell us what do the users buy TLs or A4 ? Giving up little performance? S4 is obvioudly much more advanced in engine compartment than TL.

[Snowman]

The Acura TL SH-AWD Tech with the manual should have been a part of this test and should be a consideration.

While it's certainly "middle of the road" in comparison with the competition it puts up some damn good numbers and offers better value for money - to Redman's point.

The FR-S isn't a sedan and certainly can't work for family duty like the cars mentioned. If you sit in a 335 or S4 after sitting in a FR-S you will think it's twice the car.....because it is.

Acura is not a true luxury brand. So as it was said before. Value for money is a quite relative term. People buying German cars don;t really care at the Japanese competitors. Lexus might be an exception.

  Have you ever driven one? or even sat in one?

[rrocket]

The Acura TL is absolutely a luxury sporting sedan, able to compete with any car in the class in luxury AND performance.

If you don't agree with this you:

1) Have an axe to grind.
2) Are a moron.
3) 1 & 2

[mmret]

I think the lively debate here only serves to highlight the fact that this particular segment is exceptionally good to shop in right now. Something for everyone and we haven't even covered the Q50, IS350, TL.

Now onto the issue of the price of an S4...yeah. I can see that being an issue when the C63 + Premium Package is under $71k.

Only things that would drive up the price on the C63 are somewhat meaningless in this comparison...do you need heated rear seats + electric sunshade? Carbon fiber mirrors? Extra fancy wheels? Probably not. Performance Pack with gigantic brakes, LSD, +30hp I can see that being enticing.
But as it stands the vanilla C63 badly outguns the S4 already, so its sort of overkill.

That said you can drop several grand off the price of the S4 too with no real loss and have a much better winter car. So again, something for everyone.

[mmret]

Hmm, well I guess the fancy paint helps but on the Build Your Own thing the only obvious appearance option was the dark colored wheels, and those were only $500?

[DriverJeff]

Great article! 

I'm playing "Devils' Advocate".  I am biased and I own a 2012 Volvo S60 R Design.  There were many reasons why I bought a Volvo over the others:

1. Safety.  Who cares about performance if you get into an accident and get killed.  Take a look at the IIHS small overlap test done recently.  When you have a car with 300+hp, yeah, you're going to be stupid at times.  The Volvo buys *some* assurance that you might come out of it alive when you make a dumb decision.  Pedestrian detection is also a great technology to have in the Volvo.  Unfortunately safety is probably the last thing people think about when buying a car.

2.  There are soo many Audi/BMW/Mercedes out there.  Everyone has one.  You really want to drive the same thing as everyone else? Sure they are great cars which is why everyone has one. 

3.  Raw TORQUE and HP.  I wonder what the quarter mile times are.

4.  S4 was out of my price range.  I was going for a FULLY loaded vehicle.  I like to know that someone who has the same vehicle than me got option X, that I don't have.   

okay... I know this will generate some discussion.  Please remember, I am playing Devils Advocate.

Welcome to the forum, Kmah8888333.

The points you've made for selecting the S60 are all very good points.  I've driven the S60 R-design twice now and each time have gotten back in my 335i and wondered "where'd all the power go?"  The S60 has incredible on-boost thrust and as I said in the review, it really is the hot rod of this bunch.

Many here have touched on a key point too -- all of the cars in this group are truly great.  When spending a day driving each back-to-back-to-back on the same roads (which contain a variety of surface types, straights, turns, etc.), the subtle details are revealed -- but often it's only with very careful scrutiny and consideration.

[johngenx]

They're all pretty nice cars, but I do like the Audi the best.  Interior and exterior look fantastic, performance is amazing, and pricing is, well, not completely uncompetitive.

I agree about the Acura.  The FWD TL wasn't really that desirable as a sports sedan, but the AWD model has a pretty outstanding chassis.  The Acura is a super value in the segment.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Many here have touched on a key point too -- all of the cars in this group are truly great.  When spending a day driving each back-to-back-to-back on the same roads (which contain a variety of surface types, straights, turns, etc.), the subtle details are revealed -- but often it's only with very careful scrutiny and consideration of the badge.

 

[rrocket]

Many here have touched on a key point too -- all of the cars in this group are truly great.  When spending a day driving each back-to-back-to-back on the same roads (which contain a variety of surface types, straights, turns, etc.), the subtle details are revealed -- but often it's only with very careful scrutiny and consideration of the badge.

 

I think that's why he ended up with a BMW in his driveway rather than a rip roaring Mustang GT.   

Afterall, what would the neighnors think??   

[jyarkony]

Great article! 

2.  There are soo many Audi/BMW/Mercedes out there.  Everyone has one.  You really want to drive the same thing as everyone else? Sure they are great cars which is why everyone has one. 

okay... I know this will generate some discussion.  Please remember, I am playing Devils Advocate.

You may be playing Devil's advocate, but one of our guest judges said pretty much the exact same thing. Wanting something unique is totally a valid purchase factor, and the S60 is that, especially in Rebel Blue.

[DriverJeff]

Many here have touched on a key point too -- all of the cars in this group are truly great.  When spending a day driving each back-to-back-to-back on the same roads (which contain a variety of surface types, straights, turns, etc.), the subtle details are revealed -- but often it's only with very careful scrutiny and consideration of the badge.

 

I think that's why he ended up with a BMW in his driveway rather than a rip roaring Mustang GT.   

Afterall, what would the neighnors think??   

Ha... last year when I brought the Boss home, I'm sure they just thought "There's Jeff making all that $#%&ing noise again!"   

I chose the Bimmer over the Stang because it cost me less and I'm cheap.

[rrocket]

Many here have touched on a key point too -- all of the cars in this group are truly great.  When spending a day driving each back-to-back-to-back on the same roads (which contain a variety of surface types, straights, turns, etc.), the subtle details are revealed -- but often it's only with very careful scrutiny and consideration of the badge.

 

I think that's why he ended up with a BMW in his driveway rather than a rip roaring Mustang GT.   

Afterall, what would the neighnors think??   

Ha... last year when I brought the Boss home, I'm sure they just thought "There's Jeff making all that $#%&ing noise again!"   

I chose the Bimmer over the Stang because it cost me less and I'm cheap.

Your bimmer was cheaper than a Mustang GT??  I'm not buying it.....

[sailor723]

Am I the only one who sees the irony of doing a sports sedan comparo and having all but one of the competitors shod with snow tires? Only in Canada eh? 

[nlm]

No one is saying the TL is the best car here. Indeed, it's probably far from it.

Actually a few posts back it was declared the winner!

[DriverJeff]

Many here have touched on a key point too -- all of the cars in this group are truly great.  When spending a day driving each back-to-back-to-back on the same roads (which contain a variety of surface types, straights, turns, etc.), the subtle details are revealed -- but often it's only with very careful scrutiny and consideration of the badge.

 

I think that's why he ended up with a BMW in his driveway rather than a rip roaring Mustang GT.   

Afterall, what would the neighnors think??   

Ha... last year when I brought the Boss home, I'm sure they just thought "There's Jeff making all that $#%&ing noise again!"   

I chose the Bimmer over the Stang because it cost me less and I'm cheap.

Your bimmer was cheaper than a Mustang GT??  I'm not buying it.....

Bimmer's a CPO.

[Rupert]

Looking at it from an un-biased view point and only considering type to type...I would have thought that the Acura is the only one that belongs in this category here and the test vehicles are in a different class called 'Sports Cruisers'. I sort of view the Acura as the sporting level of a manufacturer and could actually see this vehicle with a standard shift (probably something quite different to what I know of) but still with a clutch and stick. I doubt that the majority of those who buy the subject vehicles will want to do more than  'D and P' it. Even BMW purchasers. Nothing wrong with having a nice car at all (wish I could afford one) but, where does all of this 'sporting' take place. We had a Caravan Sport at one time...and Intrepid Sport...did these qualify. They were used to transport kids to soccer games...'Sports' events.

[SeaBlueS4]

Well, Rupert, unfortunately the "sport" in your Caravan and your Intrepid was nothing more than an ill-conceived marketing adventure.

As for enjoying the sport in sport sedan I know I enjoy it every day. Speaking for a number of my friends that own 335s I can say the same. These cars car handle the commute, kids, and a trip to the cottage. On the other hand, when you feel frisky after watching the latest Chris Harris video you can take it out to the backroads and enjoy driving the twisties.

Exactly, the S4 is indeed a great highway cruiser. But it's way better on any twisty roads you can find. I often find myself taking the non-highway routes just for the enjoyment factor. Dynamic mode, 3 rd gear .... 60 -> 100(+) kph in "as quick as i can say this" means rarely being held up by slower traffic.

Pleased to see that 2 yrs after my purchase, the S4 is still ranked on top. Out of those listed, the only other I seriously considered was the S60. The auto gearbox killed it for me. I'm definitely a manual fan but could probably live with a DSG type auto, but the regular auto in the S60 killed the driving experience for me.

The (2 yr old) 3 series rear seat was too small for the child seats, otherwise would have been a close choice, but my wife hates BMW's. Considered G37, but again only auto (not even DSG) with AWD and option packaging killed the value in my mind.

So, base model S4 with the $1600 saved on an auto spent on the trick rear diff, plus upgraded two tone nappa leather seats for another $1k. $53.5k before freight, discounts or taxes. Done.

Think I said this in one of my previous reviews, but the DSG in the S4 is probably the better choice in any quantifiable way: faster, more economical, better resale (maybe not if manuals become as rare as people think). If I were getting a track car it would probably be DSG (or PDK ) just so I could concentrate on learning the lines / track driving etc. But, for me, nothing beats a manual for day to day driving from a pure engagement and enjoyment point of view.

[dave]

Can't argue with the results of this comparison.  The S4 is a fantastic car...but it's pretty much priced between the 335i and the M3 (or C350 and C63, IS350 and IS-F).  I was offered a great deal on a pre-facelift 2012 S4...still wonder if I made the right decision 

You can really see how subjective these comparisons can be.  Sometimes the ATS and C350 rank high, here they are near the bottom.  It also goes to show how tight this segment is.

Did the authors set out to test AWD models only?  The problem with the 335i xdrive is that with the "Sport Line" or even the "M-Sport" model, you don't get the sports suspension.  The author did note that the 335i may not have got as many points for comfort had it been equipped with the sport suspension...but I can tell you that my 335i with the optional sport suspension is nowhere near as harsh as the E90 or my previous 135i with sport suspension (pleases my wife, displeases me).

I'm surprised the 335i had 17"s on.  Not only do they look silly in the big wheel wells, but I couldn't even fit my old 17" winters on and had to go up to 18"s for winter.  It's also worth noting that the 335i Sport Line now comes standard with 18" allseasons standard!  WTF?!  I had to upgrade to the 19"s to get low pro summers.  Do the other cars in this segment come standard with allseason too?

[bombastic]

As to the Acura, a TL SH-AWD might have fit, but there are limits to how many cars we can handle logistically, and frankly, didn't think the TL would be competitive with these cars. As to its size, it is quite a bit longer than any of these, but the wheelbase is shorter than the A4 and 3 Series... Also, the pricing of the fully loaded TL would probably undercut even the C-Class - Acura is simply playing in a sub-luxury segment with Buick right now. TL or TSX vs Regal GS might be a more fitting comparo of FWD near-luxury.

"But on a racetrack, the TL showed us exactly why Acura used the word "super" to describe its Super-Handling All-Wheel-Drive system. Despite its significant power advantage, the Audi S4's fastest lap beat the TL's by only 0.4 second.

Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1008_2010_acura_tl_sh_awd_vs_2010_audi_s4/viewall.html#ixzz1ddf1Iok3

In terms of performance, it would be more than a match.  Now add in more attractive pricing, better crash performance, and better longer term reliability and cost of ownership and....

Al things that you mentioned do not really appeal to the intended buyers. They look for performance, luxury and brand cache. And btw where did you get that crash performance is superior in TL?