Topic: Winter Driving

[EV Dan]

I see that the Governor of Massachusetts banned all vehicles from the roads in the state yesterday as of 4:00 pm (a few hours before the worst of the blizzard hit last night)  Penalties for violating the order were possible arrest, a minimum fine of $500 and possible jail time. What do you think?  it at least allowed emergency crews to get around and probably prevented hundreds if not thousands of collisions.

That's a bit extreme. What about public transport, people who use personal vehicles to provide vital services, such as nurses?
Driving in the past couple of days got me thinking that Ontario should make it a law that a car will have EITHER winter tires or 4WD. I was shocked how many people with FWD cars were on the road on all-seasons, without a LSD or any electronics for traction...

[sailor723]

I see that the Governor of Massachusetts banned all vehicles from the roads in the state yesterday as of 4:00 pm (a few hours before the worst of the blizzard hit last night)  Penalties for violating the order were possible arrest, a minimum fine of $500 and possible jail time. What do you think?  it at least allowed emergency crews to get around and probably prevented hundreds if not thousands of collisions.

That's a bit extreme. What about public transport, people who use personal vehicles to provide vital services, such as nurses?
Driving in the past couple of days got me thinking that Ontario should make it a law that a car will have EITHER winter tires or 4WD. I was shocked how many people with FWD cars were on the road on all-seasons, without a LSD or any electronics for traction...

 Public transit was shutdown. The entire MTA (subways,trolley's and commuter rail) was closed as of 3:00 PM yesterday and may not reopen until Monday morning's commute.) Media, Emergency workers and healthcare workers were exempt. If you haven't been following it this was a real blizzard in Conn,RI, Mass and southern Maine  ...hurricane force winds on the coast, whiteout conditions and 30+ inches of snow in some locations. The idea behind the ban was to avoid a repeat of the blizzard in 1978 when they had 1000's of people stranded in their cars, blocking highways and roads and needing emergency assistance.

[tpl]

I see that the Governor of Massachusetts banned all vehicles from the roads in the state yesterday as of 4:00 pm (a few hours before the worst of the blizzard hit last night)  Penalties for violating the order were possible arrest, a minimum fine of $500 and possible jail time. What do you think?  it at least allowed emergency crews to get around and probably prevented hundreds if not thousands of collisions.

That's a bit extreme. What about public transport, people who use personal vehicles to provide vital services, such as nurses?
Driving in the past couple of days got me thinking that Ontario should make it a law that a car will have EITHER winter tires or 4WD. I was shocked how many people with FWD cars were on the road on all-seasons, without a LSD or any electronics for traction...

The only practical way to do that would be to make winter tires mandatory as in PQ.  That would get tremendous resistance from the public.  Just yesterday the TTC said it was impractical to fit their 1500 buses with winter tires for example and that was on a day when many buses nearly blocked roads by being stuck.  I suspect that the effect of such a law would be that new cars would all come with those all-year tires like the Nokian and the people with old cars would just ignore the law.

[blur911]

Well my old Audi quattro made it to work fine last night  smashing through snowdrifts and such.  Then this morning I start it and see a lot of smoke billowing from under the hood, turn it off and discover a seized up alternator and a shredded v-belt.  Hopefully the alternator is just frozen and will be fixed with a warmup and a new belt.
Either way I had to hitch a ride home this morning.

So, back on the road.
Alternator was frozen solid.  Brought it inside and after a couple of hours it turned freely.  Changed the belt and all is well, except that I have 2 cars at work now.

[rrocket]

Photo radar.

Photo radar would so nothing. If it's freezing rain or frozen roads, driving 80km/h is still way too fast, yet would be well below the speed limit.

I abhor photo radar

[rrocket]

Well my old Audi quattro made it to work fine last night  smashing through snowdrifts and such.  Then this morning I start it and see a lot of smoke billowing from under the hood, turn it off and discover a seized up alternator and a shredded v-belt.  Hopefully the alternator is just frozen and will be fixed with a warmup and a new belt.
Either way I had to hitch a ride home this morning.

So, back on the road.
Alternator was frozen solid.  Brought it inside and after a couple of hours it turned freely.  Changed the belt and all is well, except that I have 2 cars at work now.

Frozen alternator? Wow. Happen often?

[rrocket]

I see that the Governor of Massachusetts banned all vehicles from the roads in the state yesterday as of 4:00 pm (a few hours before the worst of the blizzard hit last night)  Penalties for violating the order were possible arrest, a minimum fine of $500 and possible jail time. What do you think?  it at least allowed emergency crews to get around and probably prevented hundreds if not thousands of collisions.

That's a bit extreme. What about public transport, people who use personal vehicles to provide vital services, such as nurses?
Driving in the past couple of days got me thinking that Ontario should make it a law that a car will have EITHER winter tires or 4WD. I was shocked how many people with FWD cars were on the road on all-seasons, without a LSD or any electronics for traction...

The only practical way to do that would be to make winter tires mandatory as in PQ.  That would get tremendous resistance from the public.  Just yesterday the TTC said it was impractical to fit their 1500 buses with winter tires for example and that was on a day when many buses nearly blocked roads by being stuck.  I suspect that the effect of such a law would be that new cars would all come with those all-year tires like the Nokian and the people with old cars would just ignore the law.

No problem. Have insurance companies give lower premiums for those who use winters. It's supposedly safer motoring which would mean fewer accidents. Insurance would have to go down.

Some people would be pissed at buying tires to subsidize more profits for insurance companies.

[blur911]

Well my old Audi quattro made it to work fine last night  smashing through snowdrifts and such.  Then this morning I start it and see a lot of smoke billowing from under the hood, turn it off and discover a seized up alternator and a shredded v-belt.  Hopefully the alternator is just frozen and will be fixed with a warmup and a new belt.
Either way I had to hitch a ride home this morning.

So, back on the road.
Alternator was frozen solid.  Brought it inside and after a couple of hours it turned freely.  Changed the belt and all is well, except that I have 2 cars at work now.

Frozen alternator? Wow. Happen often?

Nope, never had it happen before, there wasn't even that much snow or slush packed around it. 
In these old Audi's the engine sits longitudinally up front right up to the grill and the radiator is beside it and back a bit, so the alternator is kind of behind the bumper, but still pretty exposed.
A mechanic I work with had seen it before in other vehicles.

[tpl]

I see that the Governor of Massachusetts banned all vehicles from the roads in the state yesterday as of 4:00 pm (a few hours before the worst of the blizzard hit last night)  Penalties for violating the order were possible arrest, a minimum fine of $500 and possible jail time. What do you think?  it at least allowed emergency crews to get around and probably prevented hundreds if not thousands of collisions.

That's a bit extreme. What about public transport, people who use personal vehicles to provide vital services, such as nurses?
Driving in the past couple of days got me thinking that Ontario should make it a law that a car will have EITHER winter tires or 4WD. I was shocked how many people with FWD cars were on the road on all-seasons, without a LSD or any electronics for traction...

The only practical way to do that would be to make winter tires mandatory as in PQ.  That would get tremendous resistance from the public.  Just yesterday the TTC said it was impractical to fit their 1500 buses with winter tires for example and that was on a day when many buses nearly blocked roads by being stuck.  I suspect that the effect of such a law would be that new cars would all come with those all-year tires like the Nokian and the people with old cars would just ignore the law.

No problem. Have insurance companies give lower premiums for those who use winters. It's supposedly safer motoring which would mean fewer accidents. Insurance would have to go down.

Some people would be pissed at buying tires to subsidize more profits for insurance companies.

That sounds like a euphemism for "tremendous resistance" to me     and... Insurance NEVER "has to go down".

My Ins co gives a small discount for winter tires, 5% I think on some part of the premium. That would have to be a lot higher to make a difference for many people especially with this trend ( fad ?) for enormous wheels on vehicles.  5% on the insurance is not much compared to well over $1000 for a set of winter in 19 or 20 inch sizes...and rims.

I think that maybe an automatic ticket for careless driving if you go off the road or get stuck in winter without winter tires might do it but then  you'd get a noticeable amount of people would lose their licences on points especially in the city where many, even on the enthusiast forum, claim that they don't need winter tires.

[sailor723]

Does anyone know what percentage of Ontario drivers use winter tires now? I was just wondering how many people a mandatory winter tire law would affect. I seem to remember reading that when Quebec brought their law in a significant majority of drivers were already using winters.

 As to enforcement I don't think it would be any different (or more difficult )  than mandatory seatbelt use, cell phone bans  or the requirement to have valid registration stickers on your  plates. 

[sailor723]

I see that the Governor of Massachusetts banned all vehicles from the roads in the state yesterday as of 4:00 pm (a few hours before the worst of the blizzard hit last night)  Penalties for violating the order were possible arrest, a minimum fine of $500 and possible jail time. What do you think?  it at least allowed emergency crews to get around and probably prevented hundreds if not thousands of collisions.

That's a bit extreme. What about public transport, people who use personal vehicles to provide vital services, such as nurses?
Driving in the past couple of days got me thinking that Ontario should make it a law that a car will have EITHER winter tires or 4WD. I was shocked how many people with FWD cars were on the road on all-seasons, without a LSD or any electronics for traction...

The only practical way to do that would be to make winter tires mandatory as in PQ.  That would get tremendous resistance from the public.  Just yesterday the TTC said it was impractical to fit their 1500 buses with winter tires for example and that was on a day when many buses nearly blocked roads by being stuck.  I suspect that the effect of such a law would be that new cars would all come with those all-year tires like the Nokian and the people with old cars would just ignore the law.

In what way is it impractical to put winter tires on buses?   Are such tires simply not available  or does the TTC just not want the expense?

edit

I guess it's a cost issue and not lack of product availability

http://www.nokiantyres.com/trucks-and-buses

[tpl]

I was just quoting a TTC  spokesman who was asked on the newscast

[Rupert]

What exactly did getting the final 10% of Quebec drivers to use winter tires proove?

Why would a winter tire shod vehicle causing an accident, be less responsible than an All Season shod one. It seems to me that causing an incident inspite of having winter's would be more culpable and require a larger hoist in premiums.

[Angry Chicken]

Well my old Audi quattro made it to work fine last night  smashing through snowdrifts and such.  Then this morning I start it and see a lot of smoke billowing from under the hood, turn it off and discover a seized up alternator and a shredded v-belt.  Hopefully the alternator is just frozen and will be fixed with a warmup and a new belt.
Either way I had to hitch a ride home this morning.

So, back on the road.
Alternator was frozen solid.  Brought it inside and after a couple of hours it turned freely.  Changed the belt and all is well, except that I have 2 cars at work now.

Frozen alternator? Wow. Happen often?

Nope, never had it happen before, there wasn't even that much snow or slush packed around it. 
In these old Audi's the engine sits longitudinally up front right up to the grill and the radiator is beside it and back a bit, so the alternator is kind of behind the bumper, but still pretty exposed.
A mechanic I work with had seen it before in other vehicles.

I save $5/month/car for having winter tires. (Personal Insurance Company)

[Rupert]

I don't have a prob with that...but if you are at cause in an accident then your premium should rise more than otherwise shod folk. If better equiped then you must also be subject to a more at cause ...clause.

[Noto]

Another pileup on the 401, this time near Woodstock.  So far it seems like there were only minor injuries.  50 more cars to the crusher....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2013/02/01/hwy401-pileup.html

I left Windsor along the 401 around 11am on that day going to Toronto (i.e. passing by Woodstock around 1:30pm), but the lady notified me of the pile-up and I took the side roads...the weather was awful, I was in a rental with all-seasons (urge to kill...rising!!!).  Not a pleasant journey.  I think it's time for mandatory snow tires and a significant bash on the head for those who think they can drive the same way in any weather condition.

[Noto]

No problem. Have insurance companies give lower premiums for those who use winters. It's supposedly safer motoring which would mean fewer accidents. Insurance would have to go down.

Some people would be pissed at buying tires to subsidize more profits for insurance companies.
[/quote]


yeah...that wouldn't happen.  Sept 1, 2010, amendments to Ontario Regulation 34/10 to the Insurance Act for HUGE cost-savings for the insurers...yet have you seen any decreases in premiums?  Nope...and you won't.

That irks me, though...insurance premiums are based on calculating risk.  If you lower your risk, your premiums should decrease.  I think lowered premiums for those using winter tires would be a BRILLIANT idea; but 2 problems:
1) Insurers will not accept (however indirectly) the subsidizing of the cost of winter tires
2) Insurers will come up with some bogus reason that winter tires increase risk because you are allegedly more likely to drive in marginal conditions

In any event, Mandatory Provincial Insurance = the ability to set premiums and engage in price fixing.  Provincial-wide riot, anyone?

[blur911]

2) Insurers will come up with some bogus reason that winter tires increase risk because you are allegedly more likely to drive in marginal conditions

The fact that Ontario insurers mandatorally make us insure  motorcycles all winter long pretty much means they encourage us to drive in marginal conditions.  They can't really care about risk if they think it's ok for me to ride a motorcycle on the streets  in January.

[sailor723]

It still seems to me that if you want to drive on public roads during the winter your vehicle should be equipped with winter tires....period. To me it's a safety issue the same as requiring brakes,steering etc  to be in good operating condition. For that matter I'm amazed that Ontario requires some sort of emissions testing (E test?) but not an annual safety inspection.

[blur911]

Audi worked fine yesterday for our winter autocross (only FGC there),  worked last night getting me to work and then this morning when  I started it the alternator light (and a few others I chose to ignore) came on, it wasn't charging.  I thought it may have frozen up and tossed the belt again but everything looked ok under the hood.
So, I quickly had to decide whether to try to make it the 30 or so km home or just leave it there, I opted to take the chance and drive it with a friend following a ways behind to pick me up should it die on the way.  Had to do a shortened stint on the 401 to avoid downtown delays, got about 10km with the voltage gauge dropping to about 9vdc and me figuring I'm done for, then some of the warning lights shut off on the dash and I figure it's about to lose the fuel-pump relay and die, but no, the alternator has healed and I have voltage again 

Figure the additional snowbank bashing yesterday got more moisture in the alternator and the brushes hung up and froze, but I'm guessing.

Just part of daily driving a 23 year old FGC.