Author Topic: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires  (Read 70576 times)

Offline nlm

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #120 on: December 31, 2012, 08:35:31 am »
I've had a lot of Blizzaks over the last years, and also not experienced this sudden drop off of traction.  That said, no winter tire is designed to operate at below 5/32 of tread, so I usually chuck them at that point.

Not all Blizzaks had the multi-cell/layer compound; unless you know for sure all of your Blizzaks had them this might explain why you never experienced the sudden drop in traction?

Michelin designed the Xi3s to have deeper treads and claim 75% effectiveness at 4/32.

Offline nlm

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #121 on: December 31, 2012, 08:42:34 am »
   Oh...only slightly worn...ok. What about 'ice tires' in deep snow. Like when you get to the curb after a foot of it. Some of the all season have a more agressive tread patern...might they not be as good or better in getting you going in those circumstances and in use on unplowed roads for example.

How aggressive a tread looks is a poor indicator of how much traction it actually provides. The key compoments of a winter tire is maintaining rubber flex and a tread that is able to move water away from the tire surface as efficiently as possible. An 'aggressive looking' tread is not necessarily the best at the latter.

Offline dkaz

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #122 on: December 31, 2012, 08:59:11 am »
I second that. My old Yokohama iceGuard iG20s with less aggressive tread pattern but softer compound was superior to my current Toyo Observe G02 Plus which has an aggressive tread pattern but harder compound. It's still soft in freezing temperatures but not as much as my Yokohamas which still felt sticky.

I don't know what the evolution of the Blizzak WS is but this is the Michelin X-Ice's:

Xi1 - good in snow, not so much on ice
Xi2 - a huge leap forward in ice traction, a few steps back in snow traction
Xi3 - a return to good snow traction while maintaining good ice traction.

Offline Mike

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #123 on: December 31, 2012, 09:23:23 am »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   

Moderately worn snows that still had their sipes on them would out perform the best, brand-new all season on the market guaranteed.  It is the rubber compound and sipes that make all the difference.

And the FWD-is-better-in-winter is a bit of old world wisdom.  Back when cars had 1000 lbs V8's sitting on the front end that sent 400 lb-ft of torque to the rear wheels, the FWD econoboxe alternatives with no power seemed like winter champs (because they were in comparison).

Many factors contribute to a great winter vehicle.  First and foremost it is tires.  Next it is tread width - skinnier the better on ice and snow.  Then drivetrain, with AWD being the best.  Finally, it is power.  You actually want less power in the snow.  More power just induces wheel spin.

Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.  I have drive dozens of vehicles with winter tires on and have never driven anything this controllable in the white stuff; that includes my 2010 Subaru WRX.  The little Mazda would perform as well or better I bet.

We got 18 cm of snow on boxing day and before the plows came out I was buzzing around the neighborhood with my Sailun (Chinese) winter tires on.  I have never driven anyhting that has this much bite and grip in the corners in deep snow, light snow and ice.  Also, even though it lacks ABS, it brakes amazingly in the snow most likely due to its weight (or lack there of).

I was doing circles around my sisters FWD 2011 Hyundai Santa Fe V6.  With 276 hp trying to go though the front wheels equipped with all season tires, the crossover wouldn't grip.  Even with traction control, stability control and ABS brakes, her vehicle wanted to do nothing but slide straight off the road.  My car lacking all electronic 'aides' easily out cornered it.

Acceleration is no issue, form a dead stop, in 20 cm of tire-track-riddled snow thanks in part to the low power output and mechanical rear differential that is always looking for the wheel with the most grip.

I even had 3 other cars with me to test against the Miata when it snowed - The Subaru XV Crosstrek, Porshce Boxster and Suzuki SX4 Sedan.  All had snow tires.  The XV with AWD, low power and high ground clearance was the best in the snow, but it still does not go around corners as well as the Miata.  None of the four vehicles gave me any issues in the snow, and I never got stuck.  I would say the ranking would go: XV, Miata, SX4, Boxster.


Offline tpl

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #124 on: December 31, 2012, 09:37:34 am »
Quote
mechanical rear differential that is always looking for the wheel with the most grip.
I guess you mean either a conventional LSD or a Torsen?    Regular open differentials send the power to the wheel with the LEAST grip.

My SAAB 99 and 900 had open diffs but the trick was to hold the parking brake 1/2 on by hand which loaded up the diff enough so that both front wheels got power.  Something to be said for the parking brake on the front wheels of an FWD car in slippery weather.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline Mike

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #125 on: December 31, 2012, 09:40:13 am »
Quote
mechanical rear differential that is always looking for the wheel with the most grip.
I guess you mean either a conventional LSD or a Torsen?    Regular open differentials send the power to the wheel with the LEAST grip.

My SAAB 99 and 900 had open diffs but the trick was to hold the parking brake 1/2 on by hand which loaded up the diff enough so that both front wheels got power.  Something to be said for the parking brake on the front wheels of an FWD car in slippery weather.

Yeah, meant LSD. 

Offline Rupert

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #126 on: December 31, 2012, 09:59:17 am »
   It's a matter of weight distribution and one would have thought that the rear engine Porsch would have been as good all things being equal. Anyway the thing about a two seat sports car is the ability to be better able to distribute the weight between the front and rear wheels. Something a sedan or close can not do. Power has little to do with it, if it is not used. Big American sedans had more weight totally but the same poor distribution of it vis front and rear wheels.
   The FR-S appears to be a longer car than the Miata and so the weight distribution would not be the same. I don't contend that all season tires are as good as winter rated ones but for my situation I would like to think that I would get more than a couple of seasons of value out of the winter rated ones and this discussion is of value in this respect. 

Offline Mike

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #127 on: December 31, 2012, 10:01:00 am »
   It's a matter of weight distribution and one would have thought that the rear engine Porsch would have been as good all things being equal. Anyway the thing about a two seat sports car is the ability to be better able to distribute the weight between the front and rear wheels. Something a sedan or close can not do. Power has little to do with it, if it is not used. Big American sedans had more weight totally but the same poor distribution of it vis front and rear wheels.
   The FR-S appears to be a longer car than the Miata and so the weight distribution would not be the same. I don't contend that all season tires are as good as winter rated ones but for my situation I would like to think that I would get more than a couple of seasons of value out of the winter rated ones and this discussion is of value in this respect. 

yeah, weight distribution is a great thing.  The Porsche is saddled with stock-sized 275 width winter tires.  If 245 could be put on there, or even 235s, that would help immensely. 

Offline dirtyjeffer

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #128 on: December 31, 2012, 10:27:39 am »
The Porsche is saddled with stock-sized 275 width winter tires.  If 245 could be put on there, or even 235s, that would help immensely.
that was true before the advent of today's modern winter tires.

now, ideally, you want to use the similar sized winter tire...with all season tires, you wanted the skinnier tire to increase the pressure on the contact patch (more weight on a smaller footprint to dig through the snow)...now, with better winter tires, you want more of the "sticky rubber" to maintain the contact patch with better grip.
When you've lost the argument, admit defeat and hit the smite button.

Offline Mike

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #129 on: December 31, 2012, 10:35:09 am »
The Porsche is saddled with stock-sized 275 width winter tires.  If 245 could be put on there, or even 235s, that would help immensely.
that was true before the advent of today's modern winter tires.

now, ideally, you want to use the similar sized winter tire...with all season tires, you wanted the skinnier tire to increase the pressure on the contact patch (more weight on a smaller footprint to dig through the snow)...now, with better winter tires, you want more of the "sticky rubber" to maintain the contact patch with better grip.

No, you still want skinnier tires, it is marketing hype.  No matter how advanced the tire, physics cannot be overcome.  A wide tire produces a snowshoe affect that keeps the tire on top of loose snow.  Gripping snow is great, but if you can't get down to the hard packed stuff, you are going nowhere.  You have to look no further than a modern rally car set-up for winter driving.  They have spikes (even grippier) yet, still want the skinniest tire possible.


Offline SaskSpecV

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #130 on: December 31, 2012, 10:37:20 am »
The Porsche is saddled with stock-sized 275 width winter tires.  If 245 could be put on there, or even 235s, that would help immensely.
that was true before the advent of today's modern winter tires.

now, ideally, you want to use the similar sized winter tire...with all season tires, you wanted the skinnier tire to increase the pressure on the contact patch (more weight on a smaller footprint to dig through the snow)...now, with better winter tires, you want more of the "sticky rubber" to maintain the contact patch with better grip.

Not according to the folks at TireRack.com.  And this is not passe information - the recommendation is from 2 months ago.

http://blog.tirerack.com/blog/hunters-ramblings/why-are-narrower-tires-better-for-winter

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #131 on: December 31, 2012, 10:38:18 am »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   


Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.

Somebody out east take him up on that. Doesn't matter who wins...it would make for a popular thread afterwards.  :)

Offline Mike

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #132 on: December 31, 2012, 10:40:13 am »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   


Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.

Somebody out east take him up on that. Doesn't matter who wins...it would make for a popular thread afterwards.  :)

I wish I was closer to James.  His Yaris with its skinny tires, low power and light weight (plus great driver) would make the best comparison.  You know what...it might be worth a trip to Ottawa for a story...

Offline safristi

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #133 on: December 31, 2012, 10:47:06 am »
skinny driver,light weight steering low expectations.................HUH.... ::) ;) ;D ...... yaris gotta be jokin'............he couldn't get out of his bed with that set up.............
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:49:36 am by safristi »
Time is to stop everything happening at once

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #134 on: December 31, 2012, 10:52:02 am »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   


Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.

Somebody out east take him up on that. Doesn't matter who wins...it would make for a popular thread afterwards.  :)

I wish I was closer to James.  His Yaris with its skinny tires, low power and light weight (plus great driver) would make the best comparison.  You know what...it might be worth a trip to Ottawa for a story...

Would be like a Canadian pond hockey tournament. Not reckless or dangerous but an actual 'test' of safe winter handling and traction to debunk/confirm myths and facts. But positioned as a grudge match for marketing effect.

Molson could sponsor it.

Offline Mike

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #135 on: December 31, 2012, 10:53:29 am »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   


Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.

Somebody out east take him up on that. Doesn't matter who wins...it would make for a popular thread afterwards.  :)

I wish I was closer to James.  His Yaris with its skinny tires, low power and light weight (plus great driver) would make the best comparison.  You know what...it might be worth a trip to Ottawa for a story...

Would be like a Canadian pond hockey tournament. Not reckless or dangerous but an actual 'test' of safe winter handling and traction to debunk/confirm myths and facts. But positioned as a grudge match for marketing effect.

Molson could sponsor it.

I like it!

Offline safristi

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #136 on: December 31, 2012, 10:55:17 am »
Prefer Rickard Red................... ;D ..wot's cold RED and hard and throbs between a Tyre Testers testes.......................................and goes down easy with the distaff set.......... :P ...
« Last Edit: December 31, 2012, 10:59:57 am by safristi »

Offline Snowman

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #137 on: December 31, 2012, 11:29:05 am »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   


Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.

Somebody out east take him up on that. Doesn't matter who wins...it would make for a popular thread afterwards.  :)

I will  :) all I need now is a fwd Rav4 or CRV

Offline Mike

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #138 on: December 31, 2012, 11:34:02 am »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   


Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.

Somebody out east take him up on that. Doesn't matter who wins...it would make for a popular thread afterwards.  :)

I will  :) all I need now is a fwd Rav4 or CRV

Easy peasy ;D

Offline Snowman

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Re: Feature: Winter Tires vs. All-Season Tires
« Reply #139 on: December 31, 2012, 12:25:38 pm »
   The FR-S is a rear wheel drive light car, is it not; with a lower proportion of weight over the driving wheels. Nice car and I like it but not the best configuration for winter traction. The all season tires would have pulled it out probably, if it were FWD.
I don't know how much of an improvement...say ice tires...would be in a similar situation of deep snow. Maybe a couple of sacks of cement over the rear axle and keep the gas tank full.
   All Season is not marketing hype. Before the soft rubber siped ice tires were developed, the 'All Season' became an option to having summer tires and switching to winter 'nobblies'. When radial tires became the norm they were found to be quite acceptable with FWD cars; knobblies not offering much inprovement. This in a time when getting going was the important winter aspect; not driving at higher speed in icy conditions. From reading this thread one wonders how much better, if any, a set of winter tires with a few years of use on them...would be than a new set of good all season with a good (for the class) snow rating.
   


Here is a bold statement - I would put my rear-wheel drive 1990 Miata up against ANY 2-wheel drive vehicle in ANY wintery condition up to roughly 20-25 cm of snow.

Somebody out east take him up on that. Doesn't matter who wins...it would make for a popular thread afterwards.  :)

I will  :) all I need now is a fwd Rav4 or CRV

Easy peasy ;D

First hill I take you to and its over  :)