Topic: What happened now?

[Snowman]

$10 a nuke detonates in the Middle East within the next four months. $300 oil.

$100 says it doesn't. 

How about $20 on December 22'nd 

[Blue01]

$10 a nuke detonates in the Middle East within the next four months. $300 oil.

I hate to say it, but I think youre right. The arabs arent exactly the best at organizing themselves, but to strike against Israel, someone might break out Microsoft Excel and make some lists. THis is horrid.....all I see is me in a subcompact by next summer......    

Whoa whoa whoa...let's get this straight.  Israel is the one who is going to start this by striking Iran...not the other way around.  Israel will start it, and Iran will reply...as any country would do.

I'll say it again...Iran has not left their borders to start a war in ~300 years.  Can't say the same thing for US, Israel, etc..

Technically you are right.  But Iran is good at financing and encouraging others to do their dirty work.  Either way, someone has to cool down the Iranian desire to produce nukes.  It seems that knocking off their scientists isn't doing the job.

[Northernridge]

$10 a nuke detonates in the Middle East within the next four months. $300 oil.

Well...time to go long oil.

[rrocket]

Technically you are right.  But Iran is good at financing and encouraging others to do their dirty work. Either way, someone has to cool down the Iranian desire to produce nukes.  It seems that knocking off their scientists isn't doing the job.

The USA has done that for DECADES...and it's perfectly acceptable.   

So why is everyone else allowed to have a nuclear programme?  Who gets to dictate who gets to have nuclear power?  BTW...the basis and supplies of Irans original nuclear programme came from the USA.....

Read up on Iran.  The population is aged.  Many young people who do NOT like the current regime.  As SirOsis pointed out, it's juts a matter of time before Iran implodes all buy themselves.  If the USA and Israel were smart (and they're not) they would stay away.

[Northernridge]

I'm also rooting for US oil independence. With help from our oil sands of course...fed by a couple big fat pipelines.

An article in today's globe contemplated this exact thing, also noted that at any given time there is one or two US aircraft carrier battle groups patrolling around the Straight of Hormuz. Would be nice to stop meddling in the middle east with heavy military toys.

[rrocket]

I'm also rooting for US oil independence. With help from our oil sands of course...fed by a couple big fat pipelines.

An article in today's globe contemplated this exact thing, also noted that at any given time there is one or two US aircraft carrier battle groups patrolling around the Straight of Hormuz. Would be nice to stop meddling in the middle east with heavy military toys.

Single largest user of oil in the world...is the US Military.  They account for 25% of the world's oil usage.  Yes...read that again and be as horrified as I am....

[Julie]

I probably shouldn't comment in a religious or political thread, but here goes. 

Okay, so many young people inside Iran do not like the regime, but how are they going to overcome it? It's a dictatorship.

Where I was born, if you said one thing that could be construed as negative against your government, you could disappear the next day.

Also, the regime has as its avowed mission to destroy another country. Euh... that's doesn't exactly sound like a "Oh, I'm just peacefully minding my own business" country.

Warning: politically incorrect statement coming: At times I think that some (well-intentioned) Canadians who are so used to the freedoms we enjoy are so quick to put other countries which are far worse in terms of human rights on equal footing as the countries where people can actually stand up for themselves. I don't think that's right.

Do I think the US or its 'allies' are always right? Of course not. But I'm not going to take the side of a regime like Iran's.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I probably shouldn't comment in a religious or political thread, but here goes. 

Okay, so many young people inside Iran do not like the regime, but how are they going to overcome it? It's a dictatorship.

Where I was born, if you said one thing that could be construed as negative against your government, you could disappear the next day.

Also, the regime has as its avowed mission to destroy another country. Euh... that's doesn't exactly sound like a "Oh, I'm just peacefully minding my own business" country.

Warning: politically incorrect statement coming: At times I think that some (well-intentioned) Canadians who are so used to the freedoms we enjoy are so quick to put other countries which are far worse in terms of human rights on equal footing as the countries where people can actually stand up for themselves. I don't think that's right.

Do I think the US or its 'allies' are always right? Of course not. But I'm not going to take the side of a regime like Iran's.

The current regime in Iran was brought into power by a revolution of the young in the late 1970s when the brutal US supported Shah of Iran was finally overthrown.

This all goes back to a US and UK supported coup that overthrew the democratically elected secular government of Mosaddegh in the early 1950s. Why was he overthrown? He wanted to nationalize the oil industry. A big no no to the oil interests in the US and UK.

Iran is no bigger threat to peace in the mid east than is Israel. They know the US has their back, so they feel they can do whatever they want. Steal land, destroy what little economy the Palestinians had, political assassinations, creation of Palestinian ghettos, divert water from Gaza and the West Bank. Etc etc. The Palestinians are hardly angelic, but most of the tactics they used are identical to those used by Zionists against the British in the 1940s.

Frankly the Iranians, Iraqis, Libyans and Syrians should all be given nukes along with the ones Israel already has. Either they negotiate a peace like adults, or they vaporize themselves. Either way the middle east ends up peaceful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Mosaddegh

[johngenx]

It seems religious zealots are responsible for 90% of the conflict in the world, and yes, including the ridiculous rise of stupidity in the US.

[rrocket]

^^+100 SirO and Jon!!

[Cord]

Do I think the US or its 'allies' are always right? Of course not. But I'm not going to take the side of a regime like Iran's.

Well said Julie.

So many pampered ponces in Canada are so quick to compare the U.S. with countries like Iran, trying to equalize their "evilness."

That is, after they get back from doing a little cross-border shopping.

[tpl]

It seems religious zealots are responsible for 90% of the conflict in the world, and yes, including the ridiculous rise of stupidity in the US.

Absolutely right.   Religion is the biggest scam ever perpetrated on humanity and the sooner the religion meme is excised from the human brain the better.

I have never understood why religion is allowed to be taught in schools.  It is the only subject taught that is based on lies.   

[vdk]

I probably shouldn't comment in a religious or political thread, but here goes. 

Okay, so many young people inside Iran do not like the regime, but how are they going to overcome it? It's a dictatorship.

Where I was born, if you said one thing that could be construed as negative against your government, you could disappear the next day.

Also, the regime has as its avowed mission to destroy another country. Euh... that's doesn't exactly sound like a "Oh, I'm just peacefully minding my own business" country.

Warning: politically incorrect statement coming: At times I think that some (well-intentioned) Canadians who are so used to the freedoms we enjoy are so quick to put other countries which are far worse in terms of human rights on equal footing as the countries where people can actually stand up for themselves. I don't think that's right.

Do I think the US or its 'allies' are always right? Of course not. But I'm not going to take the side of a regime like Iran's.

Okay, so many young people inside Iran do not like the regime, but how are they going to overcome it? It's a dictatorship.

Just like others have done in the past, by means of a revolution. They Iranians have done it before, if they truly want it they will do it again, even without outside help.


Where I was born, if you said one thing that could be construed as negative against your government, you could disappear the next day.

But this is nothing new.. lives will be lost in the power struggle of course. Revolution means to murder and create, and if one is not willing to make the sacrifice obviously things are not so bad.


Also, the regime has as its avowed mission to destroy another country. Euh... that's doesn't exactly sound like a "Oh, I'm just peacefully minding my own business" country.

And yet again, who is attacking who? Did Iran take out Israeli scientists? Nobody says anything about Israel killing innocent civilians.


Warning: politically incorrect statement coming: At times I think that some (well-intentioned) Canadians who are so used to the freedoms we enjoy are so quick to put other countries which are far worse in terms of human rights on equal footing as the countries where people can actually stand up for themselves. I don't think that's right.

The Western world likes to think its values are universal and should somehow be adopted by those we 'select,' through whatever means possible because we are righteous. That is what they sell us. What this is actually, is a fight for power disguised as a 20th century moral crusade -  as we are the better people because we have 'freedoms,' are comfortable and can buy iPhones. Let's be honest and call it for what it is. You really think anyone in the US government gives a damn about freedoms in Iraq? Or Afghanistan? Please. What they are looking for is power, and they will lie through their nose to get what they want, while at the same time completely denying it. We don't want power, no, we want people to be free!

[Arthur Dent]

So yesterday I go to fill up the car on the way home from work. Gas price is 1.15/L. I finish, pay and come back out. Gas price is now 1.22/L. How is that for timing?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Do I think the US or its 'allies' are always right? Of course not. But I'm not going to take the side of a regime like Iran's.

Well said Julie.

So many pampered ponces in Canada are so quick to compare the U.S. with countries like Iran, trying to equalize their "evilness."

That is, after they get back from doing a little cross-border shopping.

"Evil" is completely subjective. One man's evil is another man's freedom fighter. When Khomeini and the kids of the 1979 revolution overthrew the Shah, they did it to get rid of an "evil" despot who relied heavily on his secret police and army to maintain his grip on power. For quite a while the Ayatollah had wide popular support. But, as in most dictatorships, dissent started to be beaten down more and more forcefully, and censorship became ever tighter. Currently, the government is very unpopular, the theocratic government structure isn't popular and dissidents are getting  more vocal. Left alone, they will be overthrown.

I don't see or even try to rationalize any kind of moral equivalency between governments. US appologists, however, likes forget that the US had a very large hand in causing the current situation.

I wonder what would have happened if Mosaddegh had been left alone. It's possible Iran could have been another relatively stable and secular force in the Middle East similar to Turkey.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

"Evil" is completely subjective.

A precarious line of reasoning, very difficult to justify philosophically.  I suppose then we have no moral platform from which to condemn 9/11 attacks b/c the perpetrators could just as accurately be characterized as terrorists or freedom fighters.  It is all subjective.

I don't buy the reasoning at all, and probably, push come to shove, neither do you.  If you do, then all of your posts on the political/religious forum (where you have consistently revealed a progressive slant) should conclude with the following:  "This is just my subjective morality.  All other perspectives are equally valid."  If you doubt the rightfulness of any perspective, then what's the point of trying to convince anyone of the merit of your perspective?

That's fair. I should have said "Evil can be pretty subjective."

I don't like using the term in political discussions because it's usually the first step in demonizing the other side.

[Mike]

Tautological - attempting to prove a point by more or less simply restating the point.  Kind of like "it's correct b/c I say its correct".

Example: "Hyundais are the best b/c they are better than any other car."  Much of automotive forum activity is tautological.

Oakville is awesome because that is awesome!

[rrocket]

.  But with acts of terror, I have no problem with categorical denouncement.  Just b/c people are misled into believing they are doing right by doing wrong does not give their perspective any moral foundation at all.  The west is fully justified to seek them out and bring them to justice.  Period.

If you don't do what the USA says, you're labelled a terrorist state, regardless if you've committed terrorism against them.  And even when acts of terror have occurred against the USA, they've used it to further other political agendas.  The 9/11 attacks show this with the invasion of Iraq..a country that had ZERO to do with 9/11.  Yet the vast majority of the terrorists of that attack came from one of their "allies", Saudi Arabia....a KNOWN breeding ground of radical Islam.  But hey...let's turn a blind eye because they sell the USA cheap oil...   And this is the country we're supposed to trust in telling us who needs invading and who doesn't?  The USA has lied far too many times with regards to "rogue" countries.  As far back as Vietnam there have been false flag operations (lies) used to facilitate US agendas.

The USA continues to do business with shady countries...as bad or worse than those they currently demonize.  But as long as those countries "play ball", the USA turns a blind eye.  Don't do what the USA says and you are the bad guy.  To be certain, some of the countries are bad...but are no worse than many of the USA's allies.  And as others pointed out, the US style of democracy doesn't work in some of the countries. 

  The USA has invaded, occupied and killed more innocent civilians since WWII than any other country...by a large margin. I worry more about the stupid $hit the USA will do than what these supposed "rogue" countries will do.

There are some on this board who served in the military and have seen the high cost of war on the innocent...whether during a conflict or peace keeping duty or simple deployment after the fact.  There is no question if more people saw this, there would be less of a rush to war.

[Dexer]

Gee...how did I know this would turn into an anti-U.S. thread?

Of course, on this forum, pretty much everything turns into an anti-U.S. thread sooner or later. Given a few pages, the usual witch-hunting conspiracy theorists here see the Americans behind everything. They never learn from their own blind hate.

[rrocket]

  But you would be hard pressed to draw very many meaningful parallels between U.S. military activity and the deliberate targeting of civilians (and the subsequent celebration of civilian deaths).

A rather astonishing admission, in my view.

The US military has killed far, far more innocent civilians in foreign countries than any of these rogue organizations terrorist attacks.  In your view, only the civilians lives that were "deliberately" targeted mean anything.  But a civilian life killed "by accident" by the US military?  No biggie.