Topic: Test Drive: 2013 Lexus GS 350 AWD

[opg210]

It used to be that BMW were in a class of pretty much one if you wanted a well built performance sedan. They focused on driving dynamics and really didn't overdo it with gizmos except for the 7 series. They used to be niche players in NA that attracted performance enthusiasts.

Now they're pretty much one in the crowd of premium vehicles. Yes, their performance is usually at or close to the top of the classes they compete in, but the differences are only marginal. They've also become mainstream status symbols attracting people who wouldn't know the difference between a crankshaft and a keychain. Because of this, they still command a large premium and most people wouldn't know the difference if you could do a blind test drive. The introduction of trucks and every gadget imaginable to what was seen as a purist marque lead a lot (some?) of people to become disenchanted with the brand

Growing up, I always wanted an M3 or M5. Now? There's nothing at the brand that I couldn't get elsewhere for less money and likely better reliability.

+1, Sir Osis you nailed it I think. I grew up lusting after them, esp the sport models. Now they are everywhere (in Calgary, EVERYWHERE) as status symbols, and then most auto publications lose their minds at the sight of a new model and give reviews that are like reading what a 14 year old boy thinks of Megan Fox (thanks for the fair review here) despite any shortcomings. You won't find a review of anything BMW, that doesn't describe it as a drivers vehicle, even if it was a wheelbarrow. You get the feeling then that you can't be an "enthusiast" if you don't drink the kool aid.

They still make some great cars, but so do lots of other companies and they don't stand apart as much as they once did, no matter the hype or the prestige.

[whaddaiknow]

+1, Sir Osis you nailed it I think. I grew up lusting after them, esp the sport models. Now they are everywhere (in Calgary, EVERYWHERE) as status symbols, and then most auto publications lose their minds at the sight of a new model and give reviews that are like reading what a 14 year old boy thinks of Megan Fox (thanks for the fair review here) despite any shortcomings. You won't find a review of anything BMW, that doesn't describe it as a drivers vehicle, even if it was a wheelbarrow. You get the feeling then that you can't be an "enthusiast" if you don't drink the kool aid.

They still make some great cars, but so do lots of other companies and they don't stand apart as much as they once did, no matter the hype or the prestige.

Despite what you say that they are now EVERYWHERE, and even if they have become a status symbol and what not,
let me ask you and all other BMW bashers this. Is this a bad driving machine or is it still the leader? Yes, there are some (very few) that caught up in most aspects of performance but it doesn't take away from the benchmark.

And listen to all the critics contradict themselves! They say BMW used to be the driver's car but then in the same breath they say "Oh, the new 4 banger knocks at idle". How in the bloody world does it affect the driving dynamics?

So those self-proclaimed enthusiasts complain about rough idle and body shaking during engine restart in the "ultimate DRIVING" machine? Are you serious? If that's such a big deal then Lexus is your car - quiet and smooth.

I have test driven various makes. Lexus is only getting in on the performance game. It's still the luxo car first and foremost.
Infinity is a hooligan car. Plenty of raw power at similar performace levels but it totally lacks the finesse of the German car. The G37 is not a gentleman's car, it's still a teenage dream (for some come true).

Acura TL is a very capable sedan but in typical Honda fashion, it strikes a balance, or rather a compromise if you will, between adequate performance to liven up things, and cabin comfort with latest technology.

Every time I get back into my 328i, I feel the difference, it is subtle and at no point in time did I suffer from the buyers remorse seeing all the competition out there. It's not without its flaws but I call them character.

If you lusted for an M3 or an M5 when you were a kid then what's happened? Aren't they still the benchmark performance sedans?

To me, the BWM is a car that feels right at home in any situation - spirited driving, daily commute, highway cruiser, going to the opera, and yes as a status symbol and conversation piece too.

[rrocket]

It's not without its flaws but I call them character.

You'd fit in perfectly with the Porsche 911 owner's I've spoken to...

[rrocket]

 Yes, their performance is usually at or close to the top of the classes they compete in, but the differences are only marginal.

 There's nothing at the brand that I couldn't get elsewhere for less money and likely better reliability.

Yes, and on the street you are unlikely to notice this at all.  It might show up on the track at 10/10ths...but on the street?  Nope.  That's been the case for every Lexus we've owned.  The flip side was our cars were many time more reliable and better built than our friends with BMWs/Audis/Mercs.

[whaddaiknow]

Yes, and on the street you are unlikely to notice this at all.  It might show up on the track at 10/10ths...but on the street?  Nope.  That's been the case for every Lexus we've owned.  The flip side was our cars were many time more reliable and better built than our friends with BMWs/Audis/Mercs.

I would say the difference in reliability is quite marginal with some German marques actually topping the Japanese (including Porsche that you so sarcastically mentioned above). ALL cars built today are very reliable.
I've met a few BMW owners who haven't had a single glitch in 15+ years of ownership, and I've met those who cursed it for its electrical gremlins (2006 3-series owners). Likewise, I've met Acura and Honda owners who had their transmissions replaced and chewing through brakes like no tomorrow, and still praising their cars as being uber reliable 

In 11 months and 21,000km on my 328i, I haven't had a single glitch. While my Hyundai just got a new transmission.

[Ex-airbalancer]

I find that hard to believe that an e-36/46 had no electrical problems
also do a search on e-46 tranny about not coming out of reverse
Also search e-46 sub-fame damage

[opg210]

+1, Sir Osis you nailed it I think. I grew up lusting after them, esp the sport models. Now they are everywhere (in Calgary, EVERYWHERE) as status symbols, and then most auto publications lose their minds at the sight of a new model and give reviews that are like reading what a 14 year old boy thinks of Megan Fox (thanks for the fair review here) despite any shortcomings. You won't find a review of anything BMW, that doesn't describe it as a drivers vehicle, even if it was a wheelbarrow. You get the feeling then that you can't be an "enthusiast" if you don't drink the kool aid.

They still make some great cars, but so do lots of other companies and they don't stand apart as much as they once did, no matter the hype or the prestige.

Despite what you say that they are now EVERYWHERE, and even if they have become a status symbol and what not,
let me ask you and all other BMW bashers this. Is this a bad driving machine or is it still the leader? Yes, there are some (very few) that caught up in most aspects of performance but it doesn't take away from the benchmark.

And listen to all the critics contradict themselves! They say BMW used to be the driver's car but then in the same breath they say "Oh, the new 4 banger knocks at idle". How in the bloody world does it affect the driving dynamics?

So those self-proclaimed enthusiasts complain about rough idle and body shaking during engine restart in the "ultimate DRIVING" machine? Are you serious? If that's such a big deal then Lexus is your car - quiet and smooth.

I have test driven various makes. Lexus is only getting in on the performance game. It's still the luxo car first and foremost.
Infinity is a hooligan car. Plenty of raw power at similar performace levels but it totally lacks the finesse of the German car. The G37 is not a gentleman's car, it's still a teenage dream (for some come true).

Acura TL is a very capable sedan but in typical Honda fashion, it strikes a balance, or rather a compromise if you will, between adequate performance to liven up things, and cabin comfort with latest technology.

Every time I get back into my 328i, I feel the difference, it is subtle and at no point in time did I suffer from the buyers remorse seeing all the competition out there. It's not without its flaws but I call them character.

If you lusted for an M3 or an M5 when you were a kid then what's happened? Aren't they still the benchmark performance sedans?

To me, the BWM is a car that feels right at home in any situation - spirited driving, daily commute, highway cruiser, going to the opera, and yes as a status symbol and conversation piece too.

Since you're quoting me, read my post. You won't find any BMW bashing there. I say they make great cars, but not are all ultimate driving machines. I didn't complain about a 4 banger, I think the 4 cyl option is great and will make them lighter (more of a driving machine,you migh say) and more efficient. I say they are overbought as status symbols, which I don't think many would argue with, and that's not the fault of the cars (though maybe their marketing helps). As far as what happened to the M3s and M5s of old, I don't agree that the modern ones are as great driving machines. They are phenomenally capable in a track environment, but I don't necessarily agree that that trait alone makes it a connectable, driver oriented machine that is enjoyable on a daily basis. If I want track prowess, I'll get a track car.

If people buy them as status machines, or if magazines fawn over them, that's not the fault of the car and has everything to do with the status seeker or the reviewer.

FWIW, I think BMW engines are second to none, and their chassis tuning and feel is unmatched anywhere. I simply don't agree that that makes them all universally ultimate driving machines. The status angle is a language I don't speak, I drive what I want because I like how it drives.

[whaddaiknow]

FWIW, I think BMW engines are second to none, and their chassis tuning and feel is unmatched anywhere. I simply don't agree that that makes them all universally ultimate driving machines. The status angle is a language I don't speak, I drive what I want because I like how it drives.

That I wholeheartedly agree with. Nothing is universal especially when we are talking about consumer items that have multiple features (parameters) that represent an infinite number of equasions with variables. It is impossible to bring them all to the same level (size, weight, power, interior dimansions) and do a "fair and objective" comparison.

You would also agree that your post was in essense negative towards BMW and its owners.

What is universally agreed upon though is that BMW is used as a benchmark that may or may not be exceeded by others at certain performance categories (the G37S may produce faster lap times than the 328i and the Mustang GT can rival M3 on the track). However, and it's strictly my personal opinion, there is no other car that is consistently good, better, or excellent in all key categories that overall it wins comparison tests. It's not all and always about whose balls are bigger. And believe it or not my next car would probably be a TL but not because it's a better performer than the bimmer but because it would probably represent a better overall package for me in the context of my own life (bigger, more room for kids, powerful enough, technology galore, etc).

People buy BMW for a number of reasons but your comments about it make it look like no one would buy it for its own merits but simply because it's status symbol of some sort. And on that note, an M3 could probably be a status symbol, a 328i is just a very nice and capable entry level compact sedan.

Back on topic, I will be looking forward to more tests of GS350 and see if it really becomes a game changer for Lexus and its competitors.

[opg210]

FWIW, I think BMW engines are second to none, and their chassis tuning and feel is unmatched anywhere. I simply don't agree that that makes them all universally ultimate driving machines. The status angle is a language I don't speak, I drive what I want because I like how it drives.

That I wholeheartedly agree with. Nothing is universal especially when we are talking about consumer items that have multiple features (parameters) that represent an infinite number of equasions with variables. It is impossible to bring them all to the same level (size, weight, power, interior dimansions) and do a "fair and objective" comparison.

You would also agree that your post was in essense negative towards BMW and its owners.

Back on topic, I will be looking forward to more tests of GS350 and see if it really becomes a game changer for Lexus and its competitors.

Fair enough, though I don't mean to bash you all. I am, after all, one of you. This is a forum, I think, for people interested in things automotive and anyone who buys one because they appreciate it as an automobile, good to read your comments. I know and work with more than a few people who own BMWs and aren't interested in chatting about them because they have no idea about them, they just know it's a BMW.  I don't have time for that. One close associate drives a V10 M5, bought new, and he drives it to be seen. He frankly has no idea how it handles but will look down his nose at anything else. If my comments on the topic sometimes sound negative, it's those people I'm responding to.

[rrocket]

. However, and it's strictly my personal opinion, there is no other car that is consistently good, better, or excellent in all key categories that overall it wins comparison tests.

I think now it's like the Gold Glove Award in baseball...once you win one, it's almost impossible not to win one again regardless of performance.

I've seen a test with a G37 where it won 17 of 20 categories against a BMW...and it still lost.     Honestly..I think magazines are just too scared of the backlash to say that the BMW has been bettered by other marques....especially when you consider pricing.

[G0dspd]

 

[Jaeger]

. However, and it's strictly my personal opinion, there is no other car that is consistently good, better, or excellent in all key categories that overall it wins comparison tests.

I think now it's like the Gold Glove Award in baseball...once you win one, it's almost impossible not to win one again regardless of performance.

I've seen a test with a G37 where it won 17 of 20 categories against a BMW...and it still lost.     Honestly..I think magazines are just too scared of the backlash to say that the BMW has been bettered by other marques....especially when you consider pricing.

Yep. 

Jaeger

[Snowman]

. However, and it's strictly my personal opinion, there is no other car that is consistently good, better, or excellent in all key categories that overall it wins comparison tests.

I think now it's like the Gold Glove Award in baseball...once you win one, it's almost impossible not to win one again regardless of performance.

I've seen a test with a G37 where it won 17 of 20 categories against a BMW...and it still lost.     Honestly..I think magazines are just too scared of the backlash to say that the BMW has been bettered by other marques....especially when you consider pricing.

Well said! Facking German cars.

[CanuckS2K]

Yep, +1.

[jyarkony]

And listen to all the critics contradict themselves! They say BMW used to be the driver's car but then in the same breath they say "Oh, the new 4 banger knocks at idle". How in the bloody world does it affect the driving dynamics?

So those self-proclaimed enthusiasts complain about rough idle and body shaking during engine restart in the "ultimate DRIVING" machine? Are you serious? If that's such a big deal then Lexus is your car - quiet and smooth.

Why can't someone (like me) complain about rough idle and still appreciate the driving dynamics? If a car drives well, are we supposed to ignore all other flaws? who said that it affects driving dynamics? how does a car's behaviour at idle contradict asserting that BMWs were formerly more focused driver's cars? The previous generation was more refined AND more of a driver's car, if not outright faster....

Cars like these should drive well AND be refined. BMW should have worked harder and invested more to make this system seamless, as Toyota/Lexus conversely put in the effort to advance on the GS driving dynamics. 

wait a minute, which thread am I in??

[Jaeger]

And listen to all the critics contradict themselves! They say BMW used to be the driver's car but then in the same breath they say "Oh, the new 4 banger knocks at idle". How in the bloody world does it affect the driving dynamics?

So those self-proclaimed enthusiasts complain about rough idle and body shaking during engine restart in the "ultimate DRIVING" machine? Are you serious? If that's such a big deal then Lexus is your car - quiet and smooth.

Why can't someone (like me) complain about rough idle and still appreciate the driving dynamics? If a car drives well, are we supposed to ignore all other flaws? who said that it affects driving dynamics? how does a car's behaviour at idle contradict asserting that BMWs were formerly more focused driver's cars? The previous generation was more refined AND more of a driver's car, if not outright faster....

Cars like these should drive well AND be refined. BMW should have worked harder and invested more to make this system seamless, as Toyota/Lexus conversely put in the effort to advance on the GS driving dynamics. 

wait a minute, which thread am I in??

Agree completely.  Too often a vehicle's chortcomings are excused on the basis that "it's a driver's car" - as if those shortcomings are a necessary sacrifice in order to obtain an engaging driving experience.  It's not an either / or proposition.  Particularly at lofty premium price points, refinement and reliability should be a given.

Jaeger

[whaddaiknow]

. However, and it's strictly my personal opinion, there is no other car that is consistently good, better, or excellent in all key categories that overall it wins comparison tests.

I think now it's like the Gold Glove Award in baseball...once you win one, it's almost impossible not to win one again regardless of performance.

I've seen a test with a G37 where it won 17 of 20 categories against a BMW...and it still lost.     Honestly..I think magazines are just too scared of the backlash to say that the BMW has been bettered by other marques....especially when you consider pricing.

Guess what, I did test drive a G37S and came away unimpressed. No doubt the power is there, but the way this power is delivered is not public road friendly. I posted it in another thread so I will not repeat myself.

EDIT: On track, it may well edge out the BMW in 17 out of 20 extreme categories but brought back to public roads, BMW just makes more sense as an overall competent package that works very well on both road and track.

I have no brand loyalty but I have to say that test drive made me scratch the G37 off my shopping list.

[whaddaiknow]

Agree completely.  Too often a vehicle's chortcomings are excused on the basis that "it's a driver's car" - as if those shortcomings are a necessary sacrifice in order to obtain an engaging driving experience.  It's not an either / or proposition.  Particularly at lofty premium price points, refinement and reliability should be a given.

Jaeger

I agree. Now, let's read it this way but use previous gen Lexus.
===========
Agree completely.  Too often a vehicle's chortcomings are excused on the basis that "it's a luxury car" - as if those shortcomings are a necessary sacrifice in order to obtain a relaxing limo like experience in the back seat.  It's not an either / or proposition.  Particularly at lofty premium price points, superior driving dynamics should be a given.
===========

This is the first driver's Lexus (IS notwithstanding). Yet, no one was complaining about the previous gen's vehicle dynamics (take ES for example). It sold well (at least the ES, not the GS) on its own merits - quiet excellent cruiser that soaks up miles of pavement in a completely disconnected way. No one demanded or expected it to be on par with the Germans despite its lofty price tag. EDIT: while it was noted by the reviewers, it was never brought up as a major flaw as the car was not "meant" to be the sharp carving machine.

I am not excusing BMW for "introducing" flaws to its vehicle design but the comments are one-sided with a clear bias.

[rrocket]

EDIT: On track, it may well edge out the BMW in 17 out of 20 extreme categories but brought back to public roads, BMW just makes more sense as an overall competent package that works very well on both road and track.

Funny you should mention that.  I've seen both reasons for the competition NOT able to win.  If the competition beats the BMW on the track, the magazine will say "but the BMW really shines on the street!".......but if the BMW gets beat on the street, they will say "but thew BMW really shines on the track!".

They'll find a way for the BMW to win.....

[CanuckS2K]

. However, and it's strictly my personal opinion, there is no other car that is consistently good, better, or excellent in all key categories that overall it wins comparison tests.

I think now it's like the Gold Glove Award in baseball...once you win one, it's almost impossible not to win one again regardless of performance.

I've seen a test with a G37 where it won 17 of 20 categories against a BMW...and it still lost.     Honestly..I think magazines are just too scared of the backlash to say that the BMW has been bettered by other marques....especially when you consider pricing.

Guess what, I did test drive a G37S and came away unimpressed. No doubt the power is there, but the way this power is delivered is not public road friendly. I posted it in another thread so I will not repeat myself.

EDIT: On track, it may well edge out the BMW in 17 out of 20 extreme categories but brought back to public roads, BMW just makes more sense as an overall competent package that works very well on both road and track.

I have no brand loyalty but I have to say that test drive made me scratch the G37 off my shopping list.

It makes more sense to YOU!  It doesn't necessarily mean it makes more sense to everyone else.  I love the rawness of the VQ and will choose the G37 all day long over a 328.  You call the G37 a teenage dream, I call it a crapload of fun!  Different strokes for different folks.