Topic: 2012 Kia Rio SX with NAV

[rrocket]

Is this car direct injected?

yes.

Did they do a scope to see if there's carbon build up on the valves? That would be the easy way...pop out a spark plug and put the camera in and see. No guessing.

[dirtyjeffer]

Is this car direct injected?

yes.

Did they do a scope to see if there's carbon build up on the valves? That would be the easy way...pop out a spark plug and put the camera in and see. No guessing.

i'll ask on Monday.

if it has some carbon build up, and the fuel induction service is a maintenance service that will clean it up and be good as new, i don't mind doing it...my beef with them (or at least, the way it was positioned to me) was to spend $500 replacing the spark plugs and getting that service and see how it is after...that's when i asked what would happen if i spent that $500 and i still had the same problem...i told them it's not my job to be their guinea pig...i brought it in with a problem, it's their job to diagnose the actual issue and report/resolve it...as well, since i have the extra warranty, i'm expecting most issues to be covered, which is why i bought it...i've found that once vehicles hit about 8 years old, that's when stuff starts to go on them...i essentially bought the extra warranty to "prepay" some issues that would likely arise in the future (as i was planning on keeping the car for 10 years).

[Seafoam]

I wonder if that injection service would have an effect on decarbonation. It may help dirty injectors though. I thought the solution was to somehow get at the carbon by removing the intake manifold . I believe VW used this method to remove buildup though blasting the carbon deposits. Someone on this forum performed this procedure on a GTI a couple of years ago.
Hopefully that isn't the problem.  What is the actual benefit to Direct injection again.

[Great_Big_Abyss]

I wonder if that injection service would have an effect on decarbonation. It may help dirty injectors though. I thought the solution was to somehow get at the carbon by removing the intake manifold . I believe VW used this method to remove buildup though blasting the carbon deposits. Someone on this forum performed this procedure on a GTI a couple of years ago.
Hopefully that isn't the problem.  What is the actual benefit to Direct injection again.

Wasn't it Quad?

[HeliDriver]

I wonder if that injection service would have an effect on decarbonation. It may help dirty injectors though. I thought the solution was to somehow get at the carbon by removing the intake manifold . I believe VW used this method to remove buildup though blasting the carbon deposits. Someone on this forum performed this procedure on a GTI a couple of years ago.
Hopefully that isn't the problem.  What is the actual benefit to Direct injection again.

Wasn't it Quad?

It was me, but I expect quad has had it done, too.

Not a big deal, really. Should be considered routine maintenance, IMO. I’ll be doing it again in another 50-75k km. Cleaning the fuel injectors may or may not be needed, but it won’t do anything to get the carbon out of the intake tract and off the valves.

Oh, and you could use a borescope to have a look, but not through the spark plug hole  .

[dirtyjeffer]

What is the actual benefit to Direct injection again.

there are numerous...the carbon build up seems to be the only downside...this is why Toyota (and a few others now) offer a dual system...all the benefits of DI with the extra cleaning benefit of a traditional port FI system.

[rrocket]

Oh, and you could use a borescope to have a look, but not through the spark plug hole  .

Ya for the stems/backside you'd need to go through somewhere on the intake.

Where's the access point on the VWs for that without completely removing the intake?

[HeliDriver]

Oh, and you could use a borescope to have a look, but not through the spark plug hole  .

Ya for the stems/backside you'd need to go through somewhere on the intake.

Where's the access point on the VWs for that without completely removing the intake?

Geez, I don't know. Maybe pull the throttle body, but that's a PITA.

Just Googled it quick: looks like you can go through the air intake temp sensor port.

[Seafoam]

What is the actual benefit to Direct injection again.

there are numerous...the carbon build up seems to be the only downside...this is why Toyota (and a few others now) offer a dual system...all the benefits of DI with the extra cleaning benefit of a traditional port FI system.

Yes I am aware. To me though doesn’t seem like much of a benefit which is supposed to make a vehicle more
powerful and efficient. In time it does the opposite . The Toyota system seems to help with the buildup. Just my opinion.

[rrocket]

What is the actual benefit to Direct injection again.

there are numerous...the carbon build up seems to be the only downside...this is why Toyota (and a few others now) offer a dual system...all the benefits of DI with the extra cleaning benefit of a traditional port FI system.

Yes I am aware. To me though doesn’t seem like much of a benefit which is supposed to make a vehicle more
powerful and efficient. In time it does the opposite . The Toyota system seems to help with the buildup. Just my opinion.

Yea, I'm guessing more cars with have a dual injection now that Toyota's patent is expired.

[rrocket]

FWIW, I also don't like this dealers approach...throw parts at it until one sticks.

[dirtyjeffer]

FWIW, I also don't like this dealers approach...throw parts at it until one sticks.

exactly...that's not how it works in my books.

as i said, if it's a case of "it needs a thorough cleaning with our fuel induction service" and it's all good, fine...but none of this "try this $500 package and let's go from there"...especially when the "go from there" was around $1700, to which i had to remind him injectors were covered under my warranty and were not a "maintenance item".

[rrocket]

FWIW, I also don't like this dealers approach...throw parts at it until one sticks.

exactly...that's not how it works in my books.

as i said, if it's a case of "it needs a thorough cleaning with our fuel induction service" and it's all good, fine...but none of this "try this $500 package and let's go from there"...especially when the "go from there" was around $1700, to which i had to remind him injectors were covered under my warranty and were not a "maintenance item".

I'd be looking for a competent Indy at this point.

And have a quality OBD reader to at least give you a clue before bringing it in.

[dirtyjeffer]

ok, got the details now from the dealer.

i owe $238 for the diagnosis of what has been done so far...i am just going to pay it and pick up my car.

they want $481 for the fuel induction cleaning service, 4 new spark plugs and labour...i called the indie shop...he said the spark plugs for my car are expensive ($25 each), but he is still much cheaper...he can do the cleaning for about $50 for product plus labour, so about $200 all in (he said the labour cost for the plugs is pretty minimal since they are right on top anyway).

the dealer also said they believe the leak was on the low side line valve...they replaced the cap and it should be good (no charge for that).

they are also recommending a brake service for $238 (cleaning, no parts)...i'll have the indie shop look at that too (if it's needed, it will be much cheaper there).

i'm also going to get the flex pipe replaced...the dealer wanted something like $450...the indie said they can do it for about $200.

i'm going to drop my car off at the indie and leave it with them for a day (they said they can easily get everything done in a day).

[Great_Big_Abyss]

So they would charge you the $238 diagnostic fee even if you're having the work done there?  So, in addition to the $481 induction cleaning and sparkplugs?  If you're getting the work done there, shouldn't they absorb the diagnostics into the price of the fix?

In my experience, you only pay a diagnostic fee when you have something diagnosed at a mechanic, but now actually repaired there.  If you get it fixed at that location, they usually waive the diagnostic fee because you're paying them for the work. 

And yeah, no more dealership for that car.  I'm not sure of the terms on your extended warranty, but in most cases, having receipts from your indy showing that proper maintenance was performed (or even receipts from buying supplies, if you do your own oil changes) is enough for them to honour the warranty.

[dirtyjeffer]

So they would charge you the $238 diagnostic fee even if you're having the work done there?  So, in addition to the $481 induction cleaning and sparkplugs?  If you're getting the work done there, shouldn't they absorb the diagnostics into the price of the fix?

In my experience, you only pay a diagnostic fee when you have something diagnosed at a mechanic, but now actually repaired there.  If you get it fixed at that location, they usually waive the diagnostic fee because you're paying them for the work. 

And yeah, no more dealership for that car.  I'm not sure of the terms on your extended warranty, but in most cases, having receipts from your indy showing that proper maintenance was performed (or even receipts from buying supplies, if you do your own oil changes) is enough for them to honour the warranty.

yea, that's where i'm at...dropped the car off at the indie on the way home...he said he should have it done tomorrow...since the items the dealer mentioned were "maintenance" related, they can't come back on me as it isn't a warranty issue anyway...i'll just have the indie to the maintenance since he's half the price...as well, the dealer quoted me new brakes (front/rear)...$1443 plus tax...wtf, i just got them done about 18 months ago and even if i did get all new quality brakes installed, the indie only charges about $650 for it (longer warranty than the dealer too)... criminals.

[rrocket]

..he said the spark plugs for my car are expensive ($25 each), they are right on top anyway).

Good idea going to an indy.

As far as sparks plugs, I'd just put the best Denso in (about $8 ea) and go that way.  Denso makes the very best plugs IMO.

As far as fuel injector cleaner you can DIY,  BG44K is fantastic as is the Amsoil PI stuff.

[dirtyjeffer]

..he said the spark plugs for my car are expensive ($25 each), they are right on top anyway).

Good idea going to an indy.

As far as sparks plugs, I'd just put the best Denso in (about $8 ea) and go that way.  Denso makes the very best plugs IMO.

As far as fuel injector cleaner you can DIY,  BG44K is fantastic as is the Amsoil PI stuff.

when i drove the car home, the CELs were off and it seemed to run fine...i'm still getting the cleaning done and plugs changed anyway (just in case).

when i was reviewing the paperwork from the dealer, it mentions something about maybe replacing a rear wheel bearing...oddly enough, there was no mention of that over the phone or the emails i have from them...my extended warranty covers me for wheel bearings, so i sent him an email asking why it wasn't replaced if it was needed since my plan covers that (it's a free sale for them)...it seems the dealership drops the ball on every opportunity...if it needs a new wheel bearing, i'll now have to make another trip back there to get it done...sigh. 

[rrocket]

..he said the spark plugs for my car are expensive ($25 each), they are right on top anyway).

Good idea going to an indy.

As far as sparks plugs, I'd just put the best Denso in (about $8 ea) and go that way.  Denso makes the very best plugs IMO.

As far as fuel injector cleaner you can DIY,  BG44K is fantastic as is the Amsoil PI stuff.

when i drove the car home, the CELs were off and it seemed to run fine...i'm still getting the cleaning done and plugs changed anyway (just in case).

when i was reviewing the paperwork from the dealer, it mentions something about maybe replacing a rear wheel bearing...oddly enough, there was no mention of that over the phone or the emails i have from them...my extended warranty covers me for wheel bearings, so i sent him an email asking why it wasn't replaced if it was needed since my plan covers that (it's a free sale for them)...it seems the dealership drops the ball on every opportunity...if it needs a new wheel bearing, i'll now have to make another trip back there to get it done...sigh. 

Might as well change the PCV valve while plugs are done.  Typically 5 minutes and a $5 part.

[HeliDriver]

...  Typically 5 minutes and a $5 part.

Have you done the one on the TT yet?

The PCV valve for my GTI was $120 (that was online, no idea what the dealer wants for one.) Took maybe 10 minutes to install, because it's held on with like a dozen little screws.