Author Topic: Extended Warranty?  (Read 3507 times)

Offline Gardiner Westbound

  • Auto Obsessed
  • ***
  • Posts: 772
  • Carma: +22/-32
  • member
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #20 on: September 21, 2011, 07:42:36 pm »
Quote
Extended warranty profit margins are humongous. There's lots of negotiating room.

There's a difference of about $600 from cost to MSRP on a PremiumCare Ford warranty. I guess whether or not $600 is considered humungous depends on your point of view.

I find it interesting that there is very little discussion about whether a warranty product is good or bad on its own merits. But there is lots of talk that dealer markup automatically makes them bad. Does that mean that a warranty purchased at cost becomes good?

Warranty companies analyze previous claims to estimate future repair and replacement costs. Extended warranty prices are set well in excess of anticipated costs to yield a 50- 60-percent profit margin.

An extended warranty is not cost effective for a reasonably well maintained car, especially one with a respectable reliability rating. They are loaded with gotcha clauses that allow the provider to weasel out of paying. Many stipulate expensive dealer maintenance.

Better to put the $1,500- $4,000 cost into a long term Guaranteed Investment Certificate (GIC) and pay for repairs if needed after the factory warranty matures.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 08:50:21 pm by Gardiner Westbound »
"When you invent a better mousetrap the mice tend to get smarter." - Willie Gingrich

Offline Cord

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Carma: +104/-115
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #21 on: September 21, 2011, 09:33:08 pm »
Quote
Warranty companies analyze previous claims to estimate future repair and replacement costs. Extended warranty prices are set well in excess of anticipated costs to yield a 50- 60-percent profit margin.

Ah, so now it's the markup from the warranty company to the dealer that makes them bad. But then I thought there was supposed to be lots of room to negotiate? With the warranty company?

Quote
They are loaded with gotcha clauses that allow the provider to weasel out of paying. Many stipulate expensive dealer maintenance.

You have stated this many times. Do you have any examples? Which companies stipulate expensive dealer maintenance? I only have information on one company and I'm sure many others would appreciate knowing exactly which ones to avoid.

Quote
Better to put the $1,500- $4,000 cost into a long term Guaranteed Investment Certificate (GIC) and pay for repairs if needed after the factory warranty matures.

Yes that would be better...in the fantasyland where car buyers have the extra $1500-$4000 to keep in the bank and where they won't touch it for years.

"If we can just believe something then we don't have to really think for ourselves, do we?" Paul Haggis

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #22 on: September 21, 2011, 09:43:58 pm »

Quote
They are loaded with gotcha clauses that allow the provider to weasel out of paying. Many stipulate expensive dealer maintenance.


Most warranties do NOT allow you to do your own oil changes.  Have to be done at a dealer/oil change joint.  With Lubrico you used to be able to do your own, but not anymore.  As for the others?  I don't know.

I also know that Ford gave my friend (Licensed mechanic, employed by Ford) a hard time for warranty work on a Ford vehicle he once owned because he did his own oil changes.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 09:45:53 pm by rrocket »
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

Offline Cord

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Carma: +104/-115
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #23 on: September 21, 2011, 10:03:21 pm »
Quote
Most warranties do NOT allow you to do your own oil changes.  Have to be done at a dealer/oil change joint.

Are you talking about extended warranties or factory warranties?

Again, very vague with the "most companies." Anybody actually know which do and which don't?

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #24 on: September 21, 2011, 10:18:37 pm »
Quote
Most warranties do NOT allow you to do your own oil changes.  Have to be done at a dealer/oil change joint.

Are you talking about extended warranties or factory warranties?

Again, very vague with the "most companies." Anybody actually know which do and which don't?


Lubrico does NOT.  Does Ford?  Judging by the way they treated my friend, I'm not so sure...

Offline Cord

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Carma: +104/-115
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2011, 10:51:32 pm »
I will check a Canadian warranty guide tomorrow. But a U.S. guide states this:

Quote
It is your responsibility to make sure that all of the scheduled
maintenance is performed and that the materials used meet Ford
engineering specifications. Failure to perform scheduled maintenance as
specified in the Scheduled Maintenance Guide will invalidate warranty
coverage on parts affected by the lack of maintenance. Make sure that
receipts for completed maintenance work are retained with the vehicle
and confirmation of maintenance work is always entered in your
Scheduled Maintenance Guide.

Your Ford or Lincoln Mercury dealership, or Ford or Lincoln Mercury
Auto Care Service Center, has factory-trained technicians who can
perform the required maintenance using genuine Ford parts.

Note that it says that the dealership can perform the required maintenance. Not that it must.

Offline johngenx

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 33323
  • Carma: +758/-938
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2009 Toyota Corolla, 2004 Toyota Highlander V-6 4WD, 2001 Subaru Forester, 1994 Mazda Miata
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2011, 10:53:21 pm »
No factory warranty requires dealer service.  That's a big no-no.  I did 90% of the service on my Mercedes myself, and even those picky buggers never said boo about it.  Keep the documentation showing purchase of oil/filter/etc and you're fine.

As for 3rd party warranties, no matter what anyone says, no one should buy one.  I bet some are honest, but so many are scams that it's just not worth taking a chance.

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2011, 10:54:42 pm »
I will check a Canadian warranty guide tomorrow. But a U.S. guide states this:

Quote
It is your responsibility to make sure that all of the scheduled
maintenance is performed and that the materials used meet Ford
engineering specifications. Failure to perform scheduled maintenance as
specified in the Scheduled Maintenance Guide will invalidate warranty
coverage on parts affected by the lack of maintenance. Make sure that
receipts for completed maintenance work are retained with the vehicle
and confirmation of maintenance work is always entered in your
Scheduled Maintenance Guide.

Your Ford or Lincoln Mercury dealership, or Ford or Lincoln Mercury
Auto Care Service Center, has factory-trained technicians who can
perform the required maintenance using genuine Ford parts.

Note that it says that the dealership can perform the required maintenance. Not that it must.

Yea..that what it says.  Good luck trying to get coverage if you have an engine failure and you did the oil changes yourself.  I only know this because my friend had to jump through hoops and involve a 3rd party to finally get his warranty coverage.  And he had all the receipts of oil and filters purchased.  And as I stated, he was a mechanic employed by Ford.  I have little faith that Ford would cover the warranty if it was a DIYer who was doing the oil changes.

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #28 on: September 21, 2011, 10:55:50 pm »
No factory warranty requires dealer service.  That's a big no-no.  I did 90% of the service on my Mercedes myself, and even those picky buggers never said boo about it.  Keep the documentation showing purchase of oil/filter/etc and you're fine.



What year was that in??

(times have changed)

Offline Cord

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Carma: +104/-115
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #29 on: September 21, 2011, 10:57:24 pm »
Quote
If you are buying a used vehicle and money is tight, a complete used car warranty will provide some predictability for your budget, even if a major breakdown were to occur.

Even the APA doesn't just dismiss them out of hand.

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #30 on: September 21, 2011, 10:58:29 pm »
Quote
If you are buying a used vehicle and money is tight, a complete used car warranty will provide some predictability for your budget, even if a major breakdown were to occur.

Even the APA doesn't just dismiss them out of hand.

No..but you'd better read the fine print in the warranty BEFORE you buy it..with regards to DIY maintenance.

Offline Cord

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Carma: +104/-115
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #31 on: September 21, 2011, 11:00:57 pm »
I will check a Canadian warranty guide tomorrow. But a U.S. guide states this:

Quote
It is your responsibility to make sure that all of the scheduled
maintenance is performed and that the materials used meet Ford
engineering specifications. Failure to perform scheduled maintenance as
specified in the Scheduled Maintenance Guide will invalidate warranty
coverage on parts affected by the lack of maintenance. Make sure that
receipts for completed maintenance work are retained with the vehicle
and confirmation of maintenance work is always entered in your
Scheduled Maintenance Guide.

Your Ford or Lincoln Mercury dealership, or Ford or Lincoln Mercury
Auto Care Service Center, has factory-trained technicians who can
perform the required maintenance using genuine Ford parts.

Note that it says that the dealership can perform the required maintenance. Not that it must.

Yea..that what it says.  Good luck trying to get coverage if you have an engine failure and you did the oil changes yourself.  I only know this because my friend had to jump through hoops and involve a 3rd party to finally get his warranty coverage.  And he had all the receipts of oil and filters purchased.  And as I stated, he was a mechanic employed by Ford.  I have little faith that Ford would cover the warranty if it was a DIYer who was doing the oil changes.

Well if you're just going to rely on an anecdote to prove your point then I won't debate it. I've shown you what the documentation says. Believe what you want.

(You'd think the APA would put it in big bold letters that you can't do your own maintenance - if it were true)

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #32 on: September 21, 2011, 11:08:06 pm »


Well if you're just going to rely on an anecdote to prove your point then I won't debate it. I've shown you what the documentation says. Believe what you want.

I'm not relying on an anecdote.  I'm relying on fact.  A Ford employee (my best friend) was denied coverage because of oil changes he did.  Even with receipts, they did not believe him.  Fact.  A 3rd party arbitrator (along with 1-2 Ford engineers) had to become involved for the issue to finally become resolved.

Despite this, he still drives a Ford (the A plan pricing is too good to pass up).  But he covers the "Ford" emblems with black tape, or removes them altogether.  Silly, I know.  But hey...it still bothers him to this day. Maybe I'll snap a pic of the emblems on his new Flex and post them up here the next time I visit.

Think of it this way...extended warranties are like insurance companies.  They are never in a hurry to pay out because that means they are losing money.

Maybe Steve can chime in?  I'm sure he has thoughts on extended warranties and DIYers.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 11:11:08 pm by rrocket »

Offline Cord

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Carma: +104/-115
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #33 on: September 21, 2011, 11:11:41 pm »
Quote
I'm not relying on an anecdote.  I'm relying on fact.

It's still an anecdote - a short story meant to convey truths but which have no statistical value.

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #34 on: September 21, 2011, 11:15:49 pm »
Quote
I'm not relying on an anecdote.  I'm relying on fact.

It's still an anecdote - a short story meant to convey truths but which have no statistical value.

Yea, but often, anecdotes have a way of seeming fictitious or "too good to be true".  Especially when some tool (me in this case) is on the internet telling the story.   ;D
« Last Edit: September 21, 2011, 11:17:24 pm by rrocket »

Offline 2latecrew

  • Drunk on Fuel
  • ****
  • Posts: 1254
  • Carma: +11/-4
    • View Profile
  • Cars: 2007 Nissan Sentra (AKA The Toaster)
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2011, 07:18:43 am »
Quote
I'm not relying on an anecdote.  I'm relying on fact.

It's still an anecdote - a short story meant to convey truths but which have no statistical value.

SO anecdotes don't convince you much because they lack statistical value? You mean like this one?

. Spend some time in the service department of the most reliable brand you can think of. You will find lots of people benefiting from their extended warranty. You will have a tough time convincing these people that they wasted their money.

(as a side note this anecdote is even more questionable than normal...if you are LOOKING for people who actually use an extended warranty of course you go look in a service dept. That's where people go when their car has problems. Try walking through the mall and asking people there how many of them have gotten good value from their extended warranty)

Truly the only support we have FOR extended Warranty are anecdotes. The statistics don't support them. The "piece of mind" value that that can admittedly bring to some can't really be measured statistically.

In the end its someone else money. If it makes them happy to spend it so be it. The minute someone asks for advice though the advice giver needs to have some basis for that advice pro or con.

My advice is based on looking at the numbers. The ROI on these products is poor.
If someone selling these things had statistical evidence to support them being a good investment (as in real true rates of redemption and payout) you'd think they would be using them.

At some point if something is inexpensive enough the ROI can be worth it. If the warranty is free ? Sure If someone wants to sell me a 649 ticket for 1 penny sure. Doesn't change the fact that its very unlikley that I'll win 649.

Factory warranties I have seen have fewer exclusions and gotchas than 3rd party. That to me makes it the lesser of two evils (so to speak) One of the worst features of them though is the sales pitch that you can simply roll them into your finance.

Not only are you paying 2000 for something you can't use for 3 years, something you likely won't use but you are paying INTEREST to a lender for the privilege of giving them 2000 that you see no benefit from for 3 years. Think about that.

Finally there is often discussion of the profit margin. This is simply a warning for the ill informed. If you want to buy one ask for a discount a BIG discount. Paying a $600 profit for a warranty does not make the warranty itself any WORSE. It certainly doesn't make it better.

The person who pays 2000 for the 6 year warranty gets absolutely 0 benefit over the person who pays 1500 for it. They don't get faster service or better parts etc. They get nothing except $ they could have spent on something else going into the dealer pocket. Well maybe they enjoy the feeling the see from the Business manger's huge smile.



Offline Gardiner Westbound

  • Auto Obsessed
  • ***
  • Posts: 772
  • Carma: +22/-32
  • member
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2011, 08:04:33 am »
Quote
Warranty companies analyze previous claims to estimate future repair and replacement costs. Extended warranty prices are set well in excess of anticipated costs to yield a 50- 60-percent profit margin.

Ah, so now it's the markup from the warranty company to the dealer that makes them bad. But then I thought there was supposed to be lots of room to negotiate? With the warranty company?

Quote
They are loaded with gotcha clauses that allow the provider to weasel out of paying. Many stipulate expensive dealer maintenance.

You have stated this many times. Do you have any examples? Which companies stipulate expensive dealer maintenance? I only have information on one company and I'm sure many others would appreciate knowing exactly which ones to avoid.

Quote
Better to put the $1,500- $4,000 cost into a long term Guaranteed Investment Certificate (GIC) and pay for repairs if needed after the factory warranty matures.

Yes that would be better...in the fantasyland where car buyers have the extra $1500-$4000 to keep in the bank and where they won't touch it for years.



When you invent a better mousetrap, the mice tend to get smarter. – Willie Gingrich

Honest and authoritative automobile reliability ratings are broadly available. If a car's quality of design and manufacture is so lacking the salesman recommends a costly supplemental warranty the shopper's best response is to say there is no way in hell he will buy a substandard car - and watch the expression on his face change. Priceless!

Item 1. The house always wins! Doesn't much matter how the grifters divvy up the action. Money is power. Everything is negotiable. Commission structures are outlined here: Extended Warranties: To Buy or Not to Buy? - Automobile Protection Association (attached).

Item 2.
Which extended warranties should be avoided? All of them! Carmakers are not renowned for their integrity. All automakers run customer care "No" lines that routinely stonewall unhappy owners. In the absence of lemon laws warranty denial adds millions to corporate bottom lines. That's why a knowledge buyer shops for car price only. By all reports aftermarket warranty providers are worse. Consumer advocates often publish articles regarding manufacturers, dealers and warranty providers deplorable business ethics.

Item 3.
I'm misting up! Your concern for the purchaser's fiscal and psychological well-being is touching, and self-serving. A purchaser without the financial resources for a lump sum GIC purchase may also self-warranty. He can instruct his bank to auto debit a monthly sum equal to the extended warranty amount to a high interest savings account.

Bonus 1: He does not pay HST, interest, the salesman' vigorish, the dealer's commission or the warranty company's profit on the debit.

Bonus 2: More money is available for repairs, if needed, three or four years down the road after the new car warranty matures.

Bonus 3: Wanna talk real psychological betterment? There are no deductible, claim maximum, gotcha or weasel clauses for him to worry about. Preventive maintenance may be looked after anywhere according to whatever schedule he deems appropriate without risking a repair necessity or eligibility dispute.

Bonus 4: Repairs may be completed at a less costly independent repair garage.

Bonus 5:  He retains the saved money if, as statistics confirm, repairs are fewer and cheaper.

Bonus 6, 7 & 8:
If the car is written off, stolen or sold the extended warranty money is still in his bank account.

Prudent shoppers count their fingers after shaking hands with a car salesman.


« Last Edit: October 21, 2011, 07:13:32 pm by Gardiner Westbound »

Offline Triple Bob

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 18139
  • Carma: +308/-574
  • Gender: Male
  • Profesional Dash Stroker
    • View Profile
  • Cars: Tundra, GTI, Triumph Tiger, KTM, C63 AMG, FZ-09, Triumph Speed Triple, VW Golf Wagon TDI, BMW 535i, Honda CRF250L, Hyundai Genesis Coupe, Mitsubishi Outlander, Lotus Exige, Subaru Impreza, Peugeot 106, BMW Z4, Toyota MR2 MKIII, Ford Sierra Sapphire
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2011, 11:15:08 am »
This is very good advice, thanks!


Choosing a car based on reliability is like choosing a wife based solely because she is punctual. There is more to it than that...

Offline Cord

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 5095
  • Carma: +104/-115
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2011, 11:49:49 am »
Quote
SO anecdotes don't convince you much because they lack statistical value? You mean like this one?

Rrocket's statement regarding one person's experience does not convince me that Ford will deny its written policy in every case, no.

My statement was merely that you will find people in service departments that are happy they have extended warranty. I made no claim beyond that.

If you can't see the difference in the context of those two situations there is no point continuing.

Offline rrocket

  • Car Crazy
  • *****
  • Posts: 76339
  • Carma: +1255/-7216
    • View Profile
Re: Extended Warranty?
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2011, 12:52:02 pm »

Rrocket's statement regarding one person's experience does not convince me that Ford will deny its written policy in every case, no.


Hey, I'm not sure that they will deny warranty in every case.  I was merely pointing out if you did the oil changes, and something mechanical engine-wise happened, you will more than likely be jumping hoops to have it covered. 

Now if this was a non-engine related warranty claim, I don't think it will be a big deal.