Topic: Need a New Family Hauler

[tortoise]

In the next few months it'll be time for a new car.   We have 1 son who's a year and 3/4 and another one on the way in December.  The P5 has 225,000 km and the wife is convinced it's time to get a new car.   It needs about a grand of work (tires, shock, etc) but is still running very well but rust is starting to take hold.

Criteria:
1.  Manual Transmission
2.  Reasonable amount of space (no Minivans)
3.  Reasonably fuel efficent (see 2.)
4.  Fun to drive (See 2.)
5.  Budget of 15k.

#1 on the list rules out the majority of the cars available but it also seems those with a manual are slow sellers so maybe there's some negotiating room.   After looking at available options here's what I've narrowed it down to.

1)  Saab 9-3 Sport Combi - 2.0T - 6spd Manual
There's a 2007 with 54,000 km at a used dealer (though a high end used dealer, not a shady corner lot) for $14,500.  That's a TON of car for the money.   I had a look at it and it's in fantastic shape.  I love the looks, not sure how it drives but by all accounts they're good driving cars with great seats.

The wild card is when will the "Saab start to show"?  I know these things aren't the most reliable but there was a refresh in 2007 which took care of the major issues people were having.  The drivetrain should be solid.  Can anyone provide insight (AS?) into how these will be over the next 3-4 years and 70,000 km?   I'm ok with the odd repair here and there but several hundred dollars every few months is unacceptable.  Wife really likes it.
 
2)  Mazda6 Wagon - 3.0 V6 - 5sp Manual
This one has been for sale for a while,  it has 84,000 km - http://www.usedottawa.com/classified-ad/2005-Mazda-Mazda-6-Sport-Wagon_15585035
I've always liked these wagons, but only in manual.  The aftermarket rims would go and it comes with winters, which is nice.  Should be reasonably reliable and the price is decent.

3) Subaru Legacy Wagon - 2.5L - 5 Speed Manual
They're more common than any of the others, probably reasonably reliable.  They hold their value well and to get one in my price range will probably have ~100,000 km and be an '05-06.  One problem - Wife doesn't like them.

4) Volvo V50 Wagon
Can be had in my price range with similar miles to the Mazda6.  They're not known for their reliability but I think they've improved since they were first introduced.  A little smaller than the others listed but I'm not overly concerned about that.  Roof box will be used when needed.
http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Volvo/V50/TORONTO/Ontario/5_11438342_20100405073636966/

Others considered

Honda Element - Really like these.  They were over priced when new and are massively over priced used.  That said, if we have a third kid the low depreciation is a plus.  If the right deal came along I'd jump on it.

Mazda5 - These check all the "brain" boxes.  Manual, space, economy, fun to drive. They're cheap used too.   But the rust issue is looming and  I don't see myself loving it.  I'd always be rationalizing it based on practicality.  I love the P5.  Sure it has its shortcomings but even still I love driving it.  I don't see that happening with the 5.

[tpl]

The new Jetta ?    Or a Focus.     Base models in each case. Warranties are good.


I seem to remember reading that SAAB may be dead by the end of Sept.

[tortoise]

No sedans.

Focus rear seats too small.

[mrthompson]

I would go with the Mazda 6 wagon.  Roomy, somewhat sporty, a comfortable cruiser.

[2latecrew]

The Sabb might be a nice drive and has good space. But its a turbo and parts and service are expensive and hard to find. I'm personally vary wary of them (although my wife loves them). Unless you have a good mechanic who will work on this cheap for you I'd stay way. The blackbook on that car is between 8 and 10 7 K so it shows just how horrible the depreciation is.

Out of the cars you list the M6 Wagon with the stick would be my choice. I've nearly bought one TWICE. Problem is it does not fill criteria 3. They are a pig on fuel relatively speaking really no better than an SUV or Minivan. There are numerous message board threads of owners complaining about the fuel use of these cars. if its not a big deal then then that would be my pick.

Subaru- Its not really fun to drive and if the wife doesn't like it..why bother.

V50--Stay away FAR AWAY. I leased one. Nothing but troubles.

I've been through the whole kids car to small (we had an 02 Impreza before we leased the V50). I'll say this the panic for a bigger car is very overrated. I would have done things very differently. Once you get past the rear facing child seat stage the space in the back seat becomes a non issue for several years. I was shocked that we could go on a weeks vacation with 2 kids 5 and 7 in a rented Mazda 3 sedan or in the GTI. I thought I needed a wagon etc but other than a few times a year (when I could rent something I guess) its a non issue.

Also consider a Mazda 6 SPORT (hatchback) with the 4 cyl 5 speed. Almost as much cargo room as the Wagon but easier on fuel.

[tpl]

OK, a nearly new FIT.     Lots of room. Good MT so fun. Very economical. Great load carrier.    Faster than you expect too.   CR top pick for reliability a year or two back.   Cheap to maintain as well.  Ours has been totally reliable.

[aaronk]

Subaru Forester. More room than the Legacy, built on the same platform (still nimble) and they depreciate harder. Plus, if you can find an XT turbo with a manual, you're in for all the fun of a WRX without the police suspecting you're a teenage street racing villain (as they would if you were in a regular WRX).

Stay away from Mazda...unless you have really good friends who own a body shop with a spray booth 

[quadzilla]

Elantra Touring? It may not be the fastest or sportiest but you should be able to buy new with 0% financing and it is huge inside, just slightly smaller than the Mazda6_Wagon.

If you look at the Mz5 also check out the Kia Rondo. My buddy has one and I drove it to Lake Placid and its really a nice ride. Of course its not even close to being 'really sporty' but it held its own on that drive. The amount of useable space is impressive for the size of the car, just like the Mz5.

Having owned a Mz6 Wagon for 4 years and 120,000 kms it was a great car but if we did a lot of city driving I would have hated putting fuel in it all the time. On the hwy the gearing was setup for long distance touring as it revved around 3,000 rpm at 150kph!  My hwy mileage ranged from high 7's (very rare) to low 9's, mostly falling in the low to mid 8's. Cruise was rarely set below 120kph though.

Space was huge in the back and we used it as a rolling hotel on long trips. Fold the seats down (which you don't need to take the headrest out to make a flat floor, why can't every body do this?) and you have 6 feet of space back there.

I also went from a P5 to the Mz6 and it felt like I was driving a boat. Soft ride, more dive/lean into corners but I got use to it. Oh, don't forget the huge turning circle, just massive.

[tortoise]

Thanks guys.

Unless you have a good mechanic who will work on this cheap for you I'd stay way.

Ottawa has an independent Saab + Volvo mechanic that is very well regarded.

I've been through the whole kids car to small . I'll say this the panic for a bigger car is very overrated.

I agree 100%.  The cars listed are as large as we'd like to go.  We'd appreciate the space since we're often travelling on the road.  The cottage in particular is boat access only and the car gets pretty packed with coolers, gear, etc when going for longer than a weekend.   That said, the roof box is always an option.

Also consider a Mazda 6 SPORT (hatchback) with the 4 cyl 5 speed. Almost as much cargo room as the Wagon but easier on fuel.

I like these a lot but for whatever reason my wife MUCH prefers the wagon.  I think it's the sedan like profile.  She does not seem to like sedans at all.  I'll bring this one up again.

OK, a nearly new FIT.

Yup.  The cargo space is similar to the P5 with the seats up and it checks all the other boxes.  I keep thinking they'll be too small but they might be large enough where it matters.  I quite like the fit.  Though preference will be given to cars that eat up highway miles.  Not sure if the fit is noisy on the highway.

Subaru Forester. More room than the Legacy, built on the same platform (still nimble) and they depreciate harder.

I'm pretty sure the Forester is built on the Impreza platform.  And around here they do not depreciate that fast.  You can get a Legacy for roughly the same price and I feel that it's way more car.

Elantra Touring? It may not be the fastest or sportiest but you should be able to buy new with 0% financing and it is huge inside, just slightly smaller than the Mazda6_Wagon.

I really like the ET.  I think it looks similar to the V50 but spousal approval is non-existent.  Since she'll be driving it most of the time that matters.

check out the Kia Rondo.

No Manual unfortunately.

We also considered a new Kia Sportage with a manual and FWD but they haven't been on the market long enough to be available used and the depreciation on that configuration is going to be horrendous.

[2latecrew]

I just looked at the Mazda 6 Ad. Didn't realize it was an 05 but also did not know it was loaded one with roof and leather. If that was local I'd be tempted to offer 8 K and run with it. For that price (assuming its good mechanically) the extra fuel consumption wouldn't matter. Now that you mention your highway to the cottage trip I can see what you need. The rear space is huge compared to the V50. You could get away without the roof carrier quite often.

[tortoise]

Another plus for the 6 wagon is that my wife's commute is 20 minutes of mostly 80 km/hr driving.

Yeah, 8K for the 6 would be a good deal.

[ktm525]

Volvo V70 with 2.5 and stick. Very hard to find though...

[tortoise]

They made those?

Indeed - http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Volvo/V70/ST%20-%20NICOLAS/Quebec/5_11430869_CT2004319102747706/

Would the Volvo really be any better than the Saab?

[alpineskier]

There's lot of cars in your budget that would fit your needs well.
Here's some cars that I think you would like.

1. Mazda 3 hatchback
2. Jetta Wagon
3. Toyota Matrix
4. Mazda 5 (I have one and it's a great vehicle, check out some of my posts).
5. maybe a small crossover like a hyundai tuscon, kia sportage, jeep compass/patriot... All of them come with a manual and have fast depreciation, so you can get one you like at a good price.

**stay away from the volvo and the saab unless you want to spend thousands every year on maintenance once the factory warranty is done.

[ktm525]

They made those?

Indeed - http://www.autotrader.ca/a/Volvo/V70/ST%20-%20NICOLAS/Quebec/5_11430869_CT2004319102747706/

Would the Volvo really be any better than the Saab?

I would think. Built like a brick $hit house with all the safety bags. Tons of cargo room. Handling can be upgraded with some stiffer roll bars etc from IPD.

[tortoise]

Thanks.

**stay away from the volvo and the saab unless you want to spend thousands every year on maintenance once the factory warranty is done.

Have you owned either brand?    I know the perceptions are that these brands will cost you a fortune but then you read accounts from owners saying that they've had models that were reliable and didn't give them much grief.

Jetta Wagon is a good one.   The problem I have with them is that the 2.5 isn't much of an engine and the TDI's don't depreciate at ALL.  If VW made a Trendline TDI I'd buy one used and drive it for 10 years.  

[ArticSteve]

Volvo V70 with 2.5 and stick. Very hard to find though...

Not a bad choice.  Still have T belt system.  Safe though.  Can take a good hit.  AC systems very weak so get one with a sun roof, because when the AC goes that's it.

Late model Saabs pure junk.  Parts make Jags look cheap.  Just to change a door speaker requires a Saab programmer that Indy's don't usually have.  Nightmare unit out of warranty.  They didn't go t*ts up  because they were well made.

Element a long termer.  Women love those. That's all you see driving them.

[aaronk]

Another plus for the 6 wagon is that my wife's commute is 20 minutes of mostly 80 km/hr driving.

Yeah, 8K for the 6 would be a good deal.

Again, caution going into any 2000-ish Mazda product, watch closely for rust. They are very affordable used cars but lots of people are bailing out of them at rock bottom trade-ins because they can see the beginnings of rust around the wheel wells, rockers and door trim. This has notoriously affected Protege, Mazda3, Mazda5 and Mazda6 models. I'm not saying all will be like this, but go over any potential buy with a close look at the sheetmetal. It's worth the wait to find one that was Krown rust proofed since new.

[tortoise]

Late model Saabs pure junk.  Parts make Jags look cheap.  Just to change a door speaker requires a Saab programmer that Indy's don't usually have.  Nightmare unit out of warranty.  They didn't go t*ts up  because they were well made.

I think that's what I needed to hear.

[ArticSteve]

Have you owned either brand?    I know the perceptions are that these brands will cost you a fortune but then you read accounts from owners saying that they've had models that were reliable and didn't give them much grief.

All Saabs are out.  Most Volvos are out as well,

but V70s were essentially advanced 850s.  Simpler kinds of Volvos and of course Volvos best years.