Topic: Gasoline price. My simple breakdown.

[johngenx]

In the first 3 MONTHS of this year EXXON made 34 BILLION dollars which includes revenue from one of Canada's premier gasoline retailers, ESSO.  Argue all you like about low margins in refining or low profit here or there.  The fact remains that "oil" profits are beyond obscene.

Yes, the numbers are obscene.  A larger percentage belongs to the people of the nation that owns the oil.  Not through dividends or trickle down via massive executive bonuses or other pie-in-the-sky means.  No, through direct payments.

The fact that trillions of dollars in earnings are posted by major oil companies clearly indicates that we're getting shafted.  No, not at the pumps, but long before.

Oh, I know, business is not in it for the thrill, they need profits.  Yeah, but we're not talking about running shoes or lingerie, this is a non-renewable resource that belongs to the nation, not the company.

[ktm525]

Yes Exxon payments to there top execs is nasty. Best thing to do is not to invest in companies which don't meet your smell test.  Surely though you don't suggest that government try to extract their own resources under their own Crown corporation? Pemex (Mexico's Crown oil company) has a virtual monopoly and the situation is a disaster. Enviro problems, technological backwater, declining production and coruption. Sask. tried it with Sask Oil and again it was a complete failure and was eventually broken up and sold.

[tenpenny]

Didn't we try that with PetroCanada?

[ktm525]

Didn't we try that with PetroCanada?

Yes. There was a lookback at the whole Petro-Canada saga. IIRC the government had lost money on the whole deal. They pumped more money in than they got out. Surprising.

[safristi]

Maybe they could make a NEVER NEVER LAND for all the Peter Pan's..where fairy dust and Tinkerbell would make it ALL BETTER and that nasty alligator would be under the control of the Ministry of NASTY THINGS...........when do some people GROW UP..

[mmret]

Yes Exxon payments to there top execs is nasty. Best thing to do is not to invest in companies which don't meet your smell test.  Surely though you don't suggest that government try to extract their own resources under their own Crown corporation? Pemex (Mexico's Crown oil company) has a virtual monopoly and the situation is a disaster. Enviro problems, technological backwater, declining production and coruption. Sask. tried it with Sask Oil and again it was a complete failure and was eventually broken up and sold.

Indeed...in many cases government ownership or influence on oil companies has turned out to be a shitty deal for investors, citizens, everyone pretty much. Not always, but it seems to take a very steady hand for a government to properly guide an oil company...

[Gardiner Westbound]

You're looking in the wrong direction. The domestic oil cartel is taking us to the cleaners, but governments are gouging us even more with taxes, on taxes, on taxes. They are killing the Ontario economy.

At $1.20 a liter it costs $72 to fill a 60 liter tank. That amount includes:

• $8.28 McGuinty H.S.T.;
• $8.82 Taxario gasoline tax;
• $6.00 Federal excise tax.

The “before tax” price of the gasoline is $48.90 yielding an incredible 47.2-percent tax rate!

[tpl]

You're looking in the wrong direction. The domestic oil cartel is taking us to the cleaners, but governments are gouging us even more with taxes, on taxes, on taxes. They are killing the Ontario economy.

At $1.20 a liter it costs $72 to fill a 60 liter tank. That amount includes:

• $8.28 McGuinty H.S.T.;
• $8.82 Taxario gasoline tax;
• $6.00 Federal excise tax.

The “before tax” price of the gasoline is $48.90 yielding an incredible 47.2-percent tax rate!

 Would you rather pay more for booze and gas or pay much  more income tax?   I'd much rather have higher taxes on things I can avoid buying than have unavoidable income taxes sucked out of my wallet.  At least the oil companies can't put you in jail for not buying gas.

As an aside I think it the opinion of many economists ( NOT Mr Harper perhaps) that Canada raises too much of its revenue through income taxes and not enough through sales taxes.

[sailor723]

You're looking in the wrong direction. The domestic oil cartel is taking us to the cleaners, but governments are gouging us even more with taxes, on taxes, on taxes. They are killing the Ontario economy.

At $1.20 a liter it costs $72 to fill a 60 liter tank. That amount includes:

• $8.28 McGuinty H.S.T.;
• $8.82 Taxario gasoline tax;
• $6.00 Federal excise tax.

The “before tax” price of the gasoline is $48.90 yielding an incredible 47.2-percent tax rate!

 Would you rather pay more for booze and gas or pay much  more income tax?   I'd much rather have higher taxes on things I can avoid buying than have unavoidable income taxes sucked out of my wallet.  At least the oil companies can't put you in jail for not buying gas.

As an aside I think it the opinion of many economists ( NOT Mr Harper perhaps) that Canada raises too much of its revenue through income taxes and not enough through sales taxes.

I think you're right on that one. Harper's 2% cut in the GST was politically savvy but not of maximum benefit to the economy.

[Gardiner Westbound]

That assumes taxes are always spent prudently and wisely. Not a good assumption. Estimates are at least 30-percent is wasted. Dunno about you, but if my money is going to be frittered away I would like to be the one doing the frittering.

[tpl]

That assumes taxes are always spent prudently and wisely. Not a good assumption. Estimates are at least 30-percent is wasted. Dunno about you, but if my money is going to be frittered away I would like to be the one doing the frittering.

I betcha that it is an eternal truth that even the most frugal  governments fritter away >25% of collected taxes.   Further I suspect that unitary states ( France ? Italy?) with homogenous populations waste a bit less and states with secondary levels of government  ( Canada, US, Germany, Australia)  or deep internal divides waste more.
Then there is the eternal debate about what services you want the state to provide...which have to be paid for. My list is probably different from yours.

[johngenx]

Mexico is an interesting example.  Would we expect a nation that has a culture of horrendous corruption at all government levels and inefficient service to be able to operate a national energy company?  No.  Drawing comparisons between Mexico and Canada is apples to oranges.  Norway has a successful blend of public/private energy operations.  Perhaps we could take some of their model instead of Mexico?

There is this idea that government is wasteful and private industry is not.  What BS.  My last stint in private industry was in the executive suite of a corporation with several thousand employees and over $1Billion in revenues.  These are the supposed "efficient models" that we're hoping our governments look like?  I surely hope not.  We had healthy operating profits and yet the CEO and CFO had a massive push to lay off front line and technical staff.  So we did.  We fought five unions and laid off 800 employees.  Then we all got 40% raises overnight, and in the 11 years since I left, those management positions now earn 10-12X what they did in 2000.  Fiscal restraint and responsibility?  What a joke.  We wasted so much money it was difficult to believe.  Prior to that I worked for a Fortune 500 US-based firm, and it was much the same.

I won't say that the provincial education system doesn't waste money.  Also, now as a front-line staff member (where I'll stay, thanks) I'm no longer privy to the inner workings, but I'm a pretty savvy person when it comes to sniffing out crap, and I see virtually no waste at the school and very little at the board level.  It happens above there, I'm sure, but when I see how much money is in the total budget vs. what is being spent at the board level, it's not bad.  Could it be better?  Sure.  Nothing's perfect.

Where we waste taxpayer dollars is in corruption and theft.  Anyone that knows anything about Alberta Treasury Branches knows that the people literally stole hundreds of millions of dollars of provincial funds.  But, where did these guys come from?  The moon?  We think they were honest business people that suddenly turned corrupt when they were elected?  No.  They were thieves, plain and simple.

You don't think thievery in private business affects us?  You bet it does.  We all pay for it, not unlike when people in government steal.

[No H2O]

The “before tax” price of the gasoline is $48.90 yielding an incredible 47.2-percent tax rate!

But its amazing how many head-stuck-in-the-sand Canadians will tell you we are getting FREE health care. Nothing is free.

[No H2O]

That assumes taxes are always spent prudently and wisely. Not a good assumption.

Nothing could be further from the truth and an assumption that is spot on.

You wouldn't believe the waste; I work for these incompetent idiots. Unfortunately for them, they have a smart shopper who makes some of the buying decisions for them. Other recommendations you make that are sound, they discard.

Estimates are at least 30-percent is wasted.

I've always said they could get by on 2/3 of the money they are taking in.

My main mission in life is to pay as little taxes as possible...now and especially when I retire.

[tpl]

There is this idea that government is wasteful and private industry is not.  What BS.  My last stint in private industry was in the executive suite of a corporation with several thousand employees and over $1Billion in revenues.  These are the supposed "efficient models" that we're hoping our governments look like?  I surely hope not.  We had healthy operating profits and yet the CEO and CFO had a massive push to lay off front line and technical staff.  So we did.  We fought five unions and laid off 800 employees.  Then we all got 40% raises overnight, and in the 11 years since I left, those management positions now earn 10-12X what they did in 2000.  Fiscal restraint and responsibility?  What a joke.  We wasted so much money it was difficult to believe.  Prior to that I worked for a Fortune 500 US-based firm, and it was much the same.

I worked for private enterprise my whole career and I agree that they are mostly  just as bad as government.     Companies tho' do have to face their auditors and perhaps even angry shareholders. Even if the AGM passes peacefully the market often gives an opinion of badly run ( in a financial sense) companies quite quickly and brutally.
   Governments don't always have to pay any attention.  Examples come to mind. When was the last time that Sheila Fraser's recommendations were implemented?
The EU's "auditors" have not found themselves able to sign off on the accounts for 20 years or so

[No H2O]

I worked for private enterprise my whole career and I agree that they are mostly just as bad as government.

And the bigger they are the worse they are.

Small companies need to run a tight ship unless their profits are so huge they can be wasteful.

[johngenx]

Accountability to shareholders is not what it once was.  We learned from the last 20 years of large corporate fraud that auditors can be just as corrupt as the companies they audit.  Mutual funds have become so large that they just buy stock for the sake of it, and they play little or no role in keeping management's feet to the fire.  In fact, mutual funds have allowed executives to have free reign and minority shareholder rights have become extinct.  Mutual fund managers are in for the quarter, just like the typical public company management team.  Cut costs, drive the price up, cash in the options, and move on.  I can barely believe that company executives are paid massive bonuses even as their companies sink into bankruptcy.  The foxes are in charge of the henhouses.

The push to privatize health care and education has NOTHING to do with the desire to save money or make it better.  It is so that money can be drained from it.  Politicians want to have their private enterprise friends (and themselves) to realize profits from industries that have tremendous captive audiences.

[safristi]

All the BEST health care outcomes per dollar are from    wait for it.............SWEDEN,DENMARK,FRANCE,JAPAN,GERMANY....even Sweden the last Bastion of 99% GOV Control allows 25% of its health care to be delivered  by Private Companies.....I find it unconscionable that we in Canada are DICTATED....NO PRIVATE HEALTH CARE even the French say incroyable............small inventive hi-tech companies (see GIZMO INDUSTRY) can come up with amazing advances,and also more effective delivery systems, Health Care would be no different.....WIN WIN...   maybe Harper should do an Anti Obama health care BILL    More freedom More fulfilling.........

[johngenx]

I think a mix of public and private service providers is fine, but a single payer system minimizes costs by taking the insurance companies out of the equation.  What purpose do insurance companies serve in terms of actual health care?  None.  They do nothing to enhance the US health care system.  Also, we need to ensure that every person has access based on need, not on wealth.

Private firms might be good at research and development, but basic research is still (barely, thanks to changes in funding) performed by public institutions.  The link between basic research and income is a long and winding road, so it's important to ensure that basic research is funded and protected under the public domain.

[No H2O]

What purpose do insurance companies serve in terms of actual health care?  None.

Yup, the most expensive health care system in the world and not even the best...not even close in fact.