Author Topic: 2011 Chevrolet Camaro SS Convertible; Day 1 (Read 21111 times)

TopGun · « **Reply #40 on:** April 28, 2011, 03:20:16 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 03:04:22 pm

.....the Mustang gives you everything here, plus a better interior, with less weight and for less money...it's not that the car is no good, but i just don't see the value in it, when it's chief competitor beats it in almost every way, and is a fair amount less expensive.

You've made your point...with the implication being that GM should upgrade the car I assume and they shouldn't expect to make a single sale? This (multiple award winning) Camaro is the only Zeta based car in NA...and it's not long for this world.

AutoBlog reported months ago that the next gen Camaro will likely be based off of an Alpha platform - shared by the Caddy ATS.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/05/report-next-chevy-camaro-to-use-cadillac-ats-platform/

Sir Osis of Liver · « **Reply #41 on:** April 28, 2011, 03:24:12 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 03:04:22 pm

Quote from: Snowman on April 28, 2011, 12:37:27 pm
It is what it is and the price of admission to get into a 400 hp MT convertible. If a person wants a nicer interior, more features, and different styling to go along with that then I invite them to look at the alternatives. Happy car shopping.
$50k will also get you a BMW 135i convertible...handling is there, 0-60 in about 4.5 seconds and a standing quarter mile in about 13...but i know, that isn't a "pony car"...either way, $50k puts it up there in terms of "other considerations", and while other brands might still be more, the gap isn't as large as one would think...also, as was already mentioned, the Mustang gives you everything here, plus a better interior, with less weight and for less money...it's not that the car is no good, but i just don't see the value in it, when it's chief competitor beats it in almost every way, and is a fair amount less expensive.

The 135i convertible typically pulls 0-60 in the mid 5s, and 14 in the quarter, about were a V6 Mustang lives. Car and Driver got it down to 4.7, but they are usually on the fast side. The Camaro SS is typically in the 4.5s and mid 13 sec quarter, the drop top is a few ticks slower.

Even though the Camaro isn't really roomy, it is still much roomier than a 135i. I doubt these will be cross shopped very much. Two very different cars. Based on sales, few people are really even looking at the the 1 series.

Most people agree the Mustang is a better car, but people are still buying lots more Camaros.

Erik · « **Reply #42 on:** April 28, 2011, 03:26:19 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 02:57:06 pm

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 02:45:31 pm
Plus a good bit of profit, if GM is smart.
there's your answer right there.

Which is exactly what they should be doing.

Erik · « **Reply #43 on:** April 28, 2011, 03:31:35 pm »

Quote from: Sir Osis of Liver on April 28, 2011, 03:24:12 pm

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 03:04:22 pm
Quote from: Snowman on April 28, 2011, 12:37:27 pm
It is what it is and the price of admission to get into a 400 hp MT convertible. If a person wants a nicer interior, more features, and different styling to go along with that then I invite them to look at the alternatives. Happy car shopping.
$50k will also get you a BMW 135i convertible...handling is there, 0-60 in about 4.5 seconds and a standing quarter mile in about 13...but i know, that isn't a "pony car"...either way, $50k puts it up there in terms of "other considerations", and while other brands might still be more, the gap isn't as large as one would think...also, as was already mentioned, the Mustang gives you everything here, plus a better interior, with less weight and for less money...it's not that the car is no good, but i just don't see the value in it, when it's chief competitor beats it in almost every way, and is a fair amount less expensive.

The 135i convertible typically pulls 0-60 in the mid 5s, and 14 in the quarter, about were a V6 Mustang lives. Car and Driver got it down to 4.7, but they are usually on the fast side. The Camaro SS is typically in the 4.5s and mid 13 sec quarter, the drop top is a few ticks slower.

Even though the Camaro isn't really roomy, it is still much roomier than a 135i. I doubt these will be cross shopped very much. Two very different cars. Based on sales, few people are really even looking at the the 1 series.

Most people agree the Mustang is a better car, but people are still buying lots more Camaros.

And even then, the differences aren't huge. The Camaro was winning comparison tests before the Mustang went 5.0. GM has made some handling revisions for 2012 which should narrow the gap again. Acceleration times are pretty well a wash.

In reality, the Camaro is an immensely fast and incredibly capable car. It takes a LOT of car to leave one in the dust.

Ex-airbalancer · « **Reply #44 on:** April 28, 2011, 03:32:55 pm »

Quote from: Sir Osis of Liver on April 28, 2011, 02:43:31 pm

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 02:32:23 pm
that might make sense if that were the case here though, but it isn't...the V8 engine is not a $20k "option"...if the base model is $27k, and all they did was stuff in a big V8, the car would likely be $35k tops (including a mild upgrade to suspension and brakes if needed)...it reminds me of the Mits EVO...fast, AWD, etc, but still a $20k Lancer inside.

That's not how pricing works. Cars are priced based on what the market will bear, not on how much it cost to build.

In the original muscle cars, just ordering the top engine could easily double the price of the car over the base engine. It would still have dog dish hubcaps, vinyl seats and very little in the way of creature comforts.

The Camaro pricing only has to compete with that of the Mustang and Challenger. The Mustang being a bit cheaper, the Challenger a bit more. The equivalent German or Asian cars (RWD coupe, 400+hp) are priced well above this price point.

When I drove one, the only thing I noticed ergonomically was the poor rear visibility. The interior never stood out one way or another. Based on sales figures, I'm not sure very many others really care either.

Why would you want to know what is behind you

Would you not just follow rule #1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjGXn249Fc0

dirtyjeffer · « **Reply #45 on:** April 28, 2011, 04:06:42 pm »

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 03:31:35 pm

And even then, the differences aren't huge. The Camaro was winning comparison tests before the Mustang went 5.0. GM has made some handling revisions for 2012 which should narrow the gap again. Acceleration times are pretty well a wash.

In reality, the Camaro is an immensely fast and incredibly capable car. It takes a LOT of car to leave one in the dust.

no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"...despite giving up 100 HP and a similar amount of torque, it had a much better interior and its performance was almost equal (very minimal difference), largely thanks to it being somewhere around 400-600 pounds lighter than the Camaro and Challenger...when the Mustang was upgraded 5.0L, it solidified its title for keeps.

i agree the comparison to a 135 was unlikely to be a "cross shopped car", but my point was simply that the Camaro, while nice, still seems awfully expensive for what it is...as i said, the Mustang GT achieves everything the Camaro does, often besting it, all the while costing thousands less...yes, they are selling Camaros, but only because of the die-hard Chevy fans (slappies) who haven't had a car to buy in a decade as they refused to buy the better car (Ford Mustang).

TopGun · « **Reply #46 on:** April 28, 2011, 08:57:51 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 04:06:42 pm

no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"...

...yes, they are selling Camaros, but only because of the die-hard Chevy fans (slappies) who haven't had a car to buy in a decade as they refused to buy the better car (Ford Mustang).

Absolute and complete crap on the 1st comment. YES...the Camaro won shootouts before the 5.0:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_challenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/comparison_winner.html

Your 2nd comment that Chevy fans are the only ones buying it is completely without any evidence.

Erik · « **Reply #47 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:40:45 pm »

Quote from: TopGun on April 28, 2011, 08:57:51 pm

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 04:06:42 pm
no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"...

...yes, they are selling Camaros, but only because of the die-hard Chevy fans (slappies) who haven't had a car to buy in a decade as they refused to buy the better car (Ford Mustang).

Absolute and complete crap on the 1st comment. YES...the Camaro won shootouts before the 5.0:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_challenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/comparison_winner.html

Your 2nd comment that Chevy fans are the only ones buying it is completely without any evidence.

And Inside Line gave it to the Camaro.
As did Popular Mechanics.
Jalopnik picked the Camaro.
Automobile said it was a wash.

Even in the latest Car and Driver test of the Camaro vs the Mustang 5.0, the Camaro was still quicker.

And the Camaro is less than 300 lbs heavier than the Mustang.

dirtyjeffer · « **Reply #48 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:46:03 pm »

Quote from: TopGun on April 28, 2011, 08:57:51 pm

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 04:06:42 pm
no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"...

...yes, they are selling Camaros, but only because of the die-hard Chevy fans (slappies) who haven't had a car to buy in a decade as they refused to buy the better car (Ford Mustang).

Absolute and complete crap on the 1st comment. YES...the Camaro won shootouts before the 5.0:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_challenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/comparison_winner.html

Your 2nd comment that Chevy fans are the only ones buying it is completely without any evidence.

not crap at all:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs._2010_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t-comparison_tests

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs._2010_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t-comparison_tests

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1102_2011_chevrolet_camaro_vs_dodge_challenger_vs_ford_mustang_vs_hyundai_genesis_coupe_v_6_comparison/index.html

Snowman · « **Reply #49 on:** April 28, 2011, 10:46:18 pm »

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 10:40:45 pm

Quote from: TopGun on April 28, 2011, 08:57:51 pm
Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 04:06:42 pm
no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"...

...yes, they are selling Camaros, but only because of the die-hard Chevy fans (slappies) who haven't had a car to buy in a decade as they refused to buy the better car (Ford Mustang).

Absolute and complete crap on the 1st comment. YES...the Camaro won shootouts before the 5.0:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_challenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/comparison_winner.html

Your 2nd comment that Chevy fans are the only ones buying it is completely without any evidence.

And Inside Line gave it to the Camaro.
As did Popular Mechanics.
Jalopnik picked the Camaro.
Automobile said it was a wash.

Even in the latest Car and Driver test of the Camaro vs the Mustang 5.0, the Camaro was still quicker.

And the Camaro is less than 300 lbs heavier than the Mustang.

What is great about Ford, GM, and Mopar is the endless supply of relatively inexpensive aftermarket products and services to enhance performance and handling.

Erik · « **Reply #50 on:** April 28, 2011, 11:02:36 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 10:46:03 pm

Quote from: TopGun on April 28, 2011, 08:57:51 pm
Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 04:06:42 pm
no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"...

...yes, they are selling Camaros, but only because of the die-hard Chevy fans (slappies) who haven't had a car to buy in a decade as they refused to buy the better car (Ford Mustang).

Absolute and complete crap on the 1st comment. YES...the Camaro won shootouts before the 5.0:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_0903_2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss_vs_2009_dodge_challenger_rt_vs_2010_ford_mustang_gt/comparison_winner.html

Your 2nd comment that Chevy fans are the only ones buying it is completely without any evidence.
not crap at all:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs._2010_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t-comparison_tests

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs._2010_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t-comparison_tests

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1102_2011_chevrolet_camaro_vs_dodge_challenger_vs_ford_mustang_vs_hyundai_genesis_coupe_v_6_comparison/index.html

Ok, so you told me that I was wrong that the Camaro was winning comparison tests when it was launched. So TG and I listed comparison tests that it won from that timeframe. Now you say this is again wrong, and your evidence is two links of the same test and one newer one?

TopGun · « **Reply #51 on:** April 28, 2011, 11:05:00 pm »

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 11:02:36 pm

Ok, so you told me that I was wrong that the Camaro was winning comparison tests when it was launched. So TG and I listed comparison tests that it won from that timeframe. Now you say this is again wrong, and your evidence is two links of the same test and one newer one?

Those guys must all miss Barrie huh? I don't get it either Erik.

Just so I'm clear - DJ's Car and Driver post obviously trumps ALL of the other ones Erik and I posted. Oh...I see..he posted it twice....well he wins then!

Sorry...by the "Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"....I should have interpretted that it won SOME of the shoot outs, and thus is the superior car.

And he posts a V6 comparison?! Why am I not surprised.

dirtyjeffer · « **Reply #52 on:** April 28, 2011, 11:33:24 pm »

sorry, not sure what happened to my links...try these:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/112_1006_2011_mustang_gt_2010_camaro_ss_2010_challenger_srt8_comparison/index.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/09q3/2010_chevy_camaro_ss_vs._2010_ford_mustang_gt_2009_dodge_challenger_r_t-comparison_tests

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/10q2/2011_ford_mustang_gt_5.0_vs._2010_chevrolet_camaro_ss-comparison_tests

http://www.roadandtrack.com/tests/comparison/2010-chevrolet-camaro-ss-vs.-2011-ford-mustang-gt

http://www.insideline.com/ford/mustang/2011/comparison-test-2011-ford-mustang-gt-vs-2010-chevrolet-camaro-ss.html

http://aclnk.com/article/5832988/2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_dodge.html?cat=15

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1010_2011_2011_ford_mustang_gt_vs_2011_bmw_m3_comparison/index.html

and my point is simply that the Mustang won tests too, which it did...the V6 link was simply there to show you the Mustang V6 won its category as well...i even threw in the GT vs M3 link, as there aren't any stories about comparing the Camaro or the Challenger to an M3...look, i'm not the one picking the winners, the reviewers are...i am simply stating the Mustang has done well...no need to get your slappy backs up about it.

dirtyjeffer · « **Reply #53 on:** April 28, 2011, 11:39:33 pm »

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 11:02:36 pm

Ok, so you told me that I was wrong that the Camaro was winning comparison tests when it was launched. So TG and I listed comparison tests that it won from that timeframe. Now you say this is again wrong, and your evidence is two links of the same test and one newer one?

no, that isn't what i said at all...i simply said the Mustang won the Pony Car shootouts even when handicapped 100HP to its competitors (which i posted a link to)...not sure what was up with my original links (i was editing the post a couple of times and must have mixed things up too much)...i have since posted another post with more links...and 300 pounds is a fair amount of weight, which is one of the contributing factors why the Mustang is the fastest of the bunch...you mentioned the Camaro as quicker, but the articles mention a 0-60 time of something like 4.3 seconds and a 12.7 1/4 mile, both of which are quicker than the Chevy or the Dodge.

Erik · « **Reply #54 on:** April 28, 2011, 11:47:55 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 28, 2011, 11:39:33 pm

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 11:02:36 pm
Ok, so you told me that I was wrong that the Camaro was winning comparison tests when it was launched. So TG and I listed comparison tests that it won from that timeframe. Now you say this is again wrong, and your evidence is two links of the same test and one newer one?
no, that isn't what i said at all...i simply said the Mustang won the Pony Car shootouts even when handicapped 100HP to its competitors (which i posted a link to)...not sure what was up with my original links (i was editing the post a couple of times and must have mixed things up too much)...i have since posted another post with more links...and 300 pounds is a fair amount of weight, which is one of the contributing factors why the Mustang is the fastest of the bunch...you mentioned the Camaro as quicker, but the articles mention a 0-60 time of something like 4.3 seconds and a 12.7 1/4 mile, both of which are quicker than the Chevy or the Dodge.

Not what you said. I just made the point of the Camaro being a competitive automobile, and was winning comparison tests back then. You said:

"no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"."

You disagreed with my contention that the Camaro won comparison tests. We both showed proof that it had. No one EVER said that the Mustang didn't win tests. Or even that it wasn't the better car, at least now. So you brought out proof that did NOT support what you said.

dirtyjeffer · « **Reply #55 on:** April 29, 2011, 12:26:44 pm »

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 11:47:55 pm

Not what you said. I just made the point of the Camaro being a competitive automobile, and was winning comparison tests back then. You said:

"no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"."

You disagreed with my contention that the Camaro won comparison tests. We both showed proof that it had. No one EVER said that the Mustang didn't win tests. Or even that it wasn't the better car, at least now. So you brought out proof that did NOT support what you said.

i had read the articles i posted, so when i said the Mustang won the Pony Car Shootouts, that is the information i was going on...as well, there are numerous other articles that came to the same conclusion (which i posted links for as well)...i am not really sure why a few of you get your backs up regarding some criticism towards a car...jeez.

Spec5 · « **Reply #56 on:** April 29, 2011, 01:26:13 pm »

I agree that I think the Mustang is a better choice from a value stand point (can't believe I just said that as I used to HATE mustangs) - HOWEVER I don't think anyone buys any of these cars while cross-shopping the others. Again, you don't see Porsche owners checking out Corvettes or vice versa.

Erik · « **Reply #57 on:** April 29, 2011, 02:34:01 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 29, 2011, 12:26:44 pm

Quote from: Erik on April 28, 2011, 11:47:55 pm

Not what you said. I just made the point of the Camaro being a competitive automobile, and was winning comparison tests back then. You said:

"no, even when the Mustang GT was still using the 4.6L, it was winning the "Pony Car Shootouts"."

You disagreed with my contention that the Camaro won comparison tests. We both showed proof that it had. No one EVER said that the Mustang didn't win tests. Or even that it wasn't the better car, at least now. So you brought out proof that did NOT support what you said.
i had read the articles i posted, so when i said the Mustang won the Pony Car Shootouts, that is the information i was going on...as well, there are numerous other articles that came to the same conclusion (which i posted links for as well)...i am not really sure why a few of you get your backs up regarding some criticism towards a car...jeez.

I don't see where anyone has their back up, other than you maybe. I made a statement. You said I was wrong. TG and I proved I wasn't.

Neither TG or I are big Camaro fans. We are just not closed minded to the qualities of the car.

TopGun · « **Reply #58 on:** April 29, 2011, 03:46:43 pm »

Quote from: dirtyjeffer on April 29, 2011, 12:26:44 pm

i had read the articles i posted, so when i said the Mustang won the Pony Car Shootouts, that is the information i was going on...as well, there are numerous other articles that came to the same conclusion (which i posted links for as well)...i am not really sure why a few of you get your backs up regarding some criticism towards a car...jeez.

If anything has my back up, it's the "oh, let's just call them slappies and thus, all of their comments are discredited". I've not taken a personal shot at you...and as Erik correctly states, I'm a Mustang guy! Criticisms are viewpoints... and I'm fine with them...heck...that's what this whole place is about. Just don't expect me anyone to sit there when something is said that I think is WAY off-base.

You initially said the Mustang was a superior car with the 4.6...Erik and I have demonstrated that's not the case. All of your links except for the 1st Car and Driver are for the 2011 Mustang vs the 2010 Camaro.

dirtyjeffer · « **Reply #59 on:** April 29, 2011, 04:08:07 pm »

the Mustang GT with the 4.6L V8 finished in 1st place in the article i pointed out...if you guys feel like beating a dead horse, be my guest.