Author Topic: Anyone worried about the price of gas?  (Read 16972 times)

Offline safristi

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #180 on: March 04, 2011, 12:41:40 pm »
 Ten Peenys!! POST :iagree:... just wish I'd bought more Petro "C"  when they dipped to near $7 a POP..................friends of Gov   friends in Gov......I did it MY WAY............and am still prolly DRIVING "FREE" from all the dividends and eventual SALE...................

  Just like folks biatchin' aboot Banks, OIL Companies,Food Providers....and other necessities of life....
   BUY THEIR shares instead of "PARKING" yer Loonies in GIC's...


  ELECTRIC avenue......utilities baybee..................I got an EDDY GRANT from the Gangament  ;) ;D :bang: >:D :pimp: :drool: :fall:
« Last Edit: March 04, 2011, 12:44:54 pm by safristi »
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Offline mmret

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #181 on: March 04, 2011, 02:39:57 pm »
Just get the speculators out if the market, and things will sort themselves out. Mandate that all purchasers of oil or gas actually have to take delivery of the product they are buying, and watch the market calm right down.

It will calm down to nonexistence, and very bad things will happen.

Plus what you're proposing has various technical challenges.
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Offline Erik

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #182 on: March 04, 2011, 02:50:35 pm »
Just get the speculators out if the market, and things will sort themselves out. Mandate that all purchasers of oil or gas actually have to take delivery of the product they are buying, and watch the market calm right down.

It will calm down to nonexistence, and very bad things will happen.

Plus what you're proposing has various technical challenges.

What bad things would happen? All we are doing is cutting the guys out of the middle who do nothing but drive prices up. The people/companies who actually need to buy fuel to resell it or use it, would not be effected. Prices would stabilize dramatically.

Technical challenges? Fine them $100 for every barrel they don't take delivery of.
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Offline johngenx

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #183 on: March 04, 2011, 02:55:49 pm »
No need to force delivery of commodities.  A Tobin tax will suffice to knock most speculators out.  It's not unlike the high buy/sell spread that ordinary people face with currencies (essentially a transaction fee) that keeps them from buying and selling currencies for the hell of it.  The majority of "regular" folks buying currencies at your local bank (or wherever) are doing so for travel needs.  The spread keeps them from playing the market.  This is possible to do with anything, and it helps to keep volatility down.

Commodities are not the playthings of traders, but the things that feed and fuel our world.  I see nothing wrong with stabilizing taxes/fees.  Oh, and don't give me "free market BS."  It would apply equally to everyone, and the prices would still float.

Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #184 on: March 04, 2011, 03:41:42 pm »
Been working in Loyalist collage in  Belleville( 140km round trip) for week been driving at 103 km/hr in the truck, noticed that I am about slowest driver out there so I guess not to many people are worry about the price of gas

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #185 on: March 04, 2011, 03:41:57 pm »
No need to force delivery of commodities.  A Tobin tax will suffice to knock most speculators out.  It's not unlike the high buy/sell spread that ordinary people face with currencies (essentially a transaction fee) that keeps them from buying and selling currencies for the hell of it.  The majority of "regular" folks buying currencies at your local bank (or wherever) are doing so for travel needs.  The spread keeps them from playing the market.  This is possible to do with anything, and it helps to keep volatility down.

Commodities are not the playthings of traders, but the things that feed and fuel our world.  I see nothing wrong with stabilizing taxes/fees.  Oh, and don't give me "free market BS."  It would apply equally to everyone, and the prices would still float.

 :thumbup: :thumbup:

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #186 on: March 04, 2011, 03:54:04 pm »
Been working in Loyalist collage in  Belleville( 140km round trip) for week been driving at 103 km/hr in the truck, noticed that I am about slowest driver out there so I guess not to many people are worry about the price of gas

Considering that I probably get better fuel economy at 130kph than you do at 103kph, I'm really not that worried.  :P

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #187 on: March 04, 2011, 04:43:27 pm »
Province wide we have a high % of pickups in Grey/Bruce counties and since the gas price hit $1.25 I've been doing an informal survey.  Essentially the survey is to what degree are the drivers frowning.  Todate, 100% have frowns or pained expressions.

Oh it's got to hurt.  Trust me folks all those "fuel ratings" on pickups expressed by the companies are pure fantasy.  The best you can do in a new crew cab 1/2 ton is 16 US mpg on the highway and that's doggin it.


Offline Canada

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #188 on: March 04, 2011, 05:58:47 pm »
Well the good news is that there are modes of transportation that offer both 16mpg and 40mpg. The question is will we ever go back to $70 sweet light crude per barrel or are those days long gone? How long can you afford to wait to find out? Currently we are at $105/barrel. Where is it all going to stop? The US is in debt up to their eyeballs. With quantitative easing how much longer can they keep printing money? At some point the US dollar will go down the toilet. In a few years people will need $100 for a loaf of bread. Rampant inflation will be the new paradigm. I am not concerned for ones that choose the 16mpg buggies. Many need to drive a truck or otherwise for their livelihood. In the end it's always those that end up footing the bill for previous generations irresponibilities. The gravy train is going to have to stop at some point. It is not just the price of gas that worries me! 

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #189 on: March 04, 2011, 10:25:59 pm »
At some point the US dollar will go down the toilet

At some point the Canadian dollar will go down the toilet and probably sooner than projected.  Then watch our price of gas, from our own oil, skyrocket.  Good stuff!!

Offline quadzilla

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #190 on: March 05, 2011, 06:51:42 am »
Hit 1.169 today where I live.  Good thing the US border is only 5 minutes away, can run over at lunch, get gas, and save about $11 on the car alone.  Over $20 filling up the truck - that adds up to about $100 every month.

Only $100/month? I guess you don't very drive much.

Offline tpl

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #191 on: March 05, 2011, 06:57:46 am »
Hit 1.169 today where I live.  Good thing the US border is only 5 minutes away, can run over at lunch, get gas, and save about $11 on the car alone.  Over $20 filling up the truck - that adds up to about $100 every month.

Only $100/month? I guess you don't very drive much.
That is the savings as I read it. That is an appreciable amount to save...at the expense on an anal probe once a week.  :o  ;D
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Offline mmret

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #192 on: March 05, 2011, 11:46:16 am »
Just get the speculators out if the market, and things will sort themselves out. Mandate that all purchasers of oil or gas actually have to take delivery of the product they are buying, and watch the market calm right down.

It will calm down to nonexistence, and very bad things will happen.

Plus what you're proposing has various technical challenges.

What bad things would happen? All we are doing is cutting the guys out of the middle who do nothing but drive prices up. The people/companies who actually need to buy fuel to resell it or use it, would not be effected. Prices would stabilize dramatically.

Technical challenges? Fine them $100 for every barrel they don't take delivery of.

who do nothing but drive prices up.

First of all, speculators are on both sides of the market. Some are long, others short. You can't argue that in both cases they are "driving prices up". You can say that to the extent that speculators are net long, they are driving futures prices up in the short term. Likewise, to the extent that tehy are net short, they are driving futures prices down in the short term.

As for whether they are ever driving prices up (or down) on a long term, structural basis, you would have to consider that in virtually all cases speculators never take delivery (or make delivery) of the oil futures they've bought (or sold). They buy a future, hold it for a bit, then get out, or possibly reverse there position. At no point do they actually have possession of any oil.

The implication of this is that the physical market is unaffected by speculators. At the end of the day, the physical crude market consists of commercial sellers (oil producers) and buyers (refiners, governments, corporations etc.). On the last day of the futures when all the speculators are forced out you're left with X amount of oil to sell and Y amount of oil to buy, and based on that and the inventory available (and a zillion other factors) you're left with some price that clears the physical market. There's no speculator in this unless you believe all hedge funds have giant oil tanks out back near the parking lot.

Can speculators affect the futures market on a short term basis? Yes, absolutely. Especially in longer dated futures where commercial activity tends to be light. That part of the market tends to be dominated by speculative flows. However, the speculators who play in that arena tend to be much more long term in thinking (and you need to be, given the lack of liquidity in that space). They're not looking to make a quick buck the way some 25 year old crude day-trader is. They're trying to figure out how much oil or natural gas or wheat is worth in July, 2012. Its a price discovery function, and its good. However, in the medium term, near dated contracts, the effects of speculators are generally very transient.

You'll note, of course, that CFTC data show that speculators were net short crude oil during its last hurrah up from about $125 to $147/bbl. And yet, it still kept going higher (until it didn't). Additionally, markets that have no futures activity (ie: iron ore) saw price increases wildly in excess of those seen in crude. So, the interaction of supply and demand in tightly coupled, low slack, inelastic markets can cause parabolic price rises (and declines). Who'd have thought. ::)

people/companies who actually need to buy fuel to resell it or use it, would not be effected
Firstly, the word is "affected".

Secondly, you've introduced a funky paradox. Say I am Great Big Refinery Inc. I think I'm going to need 50000 bbls of oil to meet demand in May. So I buy those barrels to hedge my costs. Meanwhile, I sell the equivalent amount of gasoline / heating oil etc. (the output of my refining process) to hedge my revenue. Next week, sadly, my refinery lights on fire and has to be shut down for repair work. Now I've been forced to take delivery of 50000 bbls of oil that I can't use, and make delivery on 50000 bbls worth of products that I can't make.

You, Erik, might think: "Well okay, just go sell the oil futures for the part you don't need and buy back the gasoline / heating oil futures that you can't deliver to." And that's exactly how the futures market functions, today. The exchange nets people out and you don't have to show up with your oil tanker if you're net flat position wise. Unless, of course, you want me to take that oil, drive it around the block a few times, then deliver it to the next guy, and pay a $100 per contract penalty fee for having my refinery accidentally catch fire. Because that's a smart regulatory policy. ::)

Prices would stabilize dramatically.
Would they? Stable prices are a function of a market that is extremely liquid in both directions. If you kick out speculators, who is going to provide most of that liquidity? Airlines would be forced to call up their bank to hedge some of their oil exposure, and the bank wouldn't have any outlet for that risk other than desperately trying to phone up Exxon to buy some. Price stability would be a function of whether or not you could get the right buyer and right seller together on the same day. That is not a sophisticated market - its a sloppy, illiquid one with no transparency (like Real Estate, for example).

In the longer term, how would XYZ Oil Co. like it? What if they have a field which they feel confident they can get online and produce 20000 barrels a day for a decade or so, starting next year? Lets say they like prices where they are right now and would be happy to sell their oil at current futures prices. Who's going to buy it? You've kicked speculators out of the market, or forced them to take delivery of something they can't store, which amounts to the same thing.

So XYZ Oil Co. would then be forced to find another way to finance their capital expenditure. They could go to a bank and ask the bank for a loan that is collateralized on the oil in the ground. But then the bank is sitting on oil exposure that they don't want and can't get rid of (because there is nobody in the futures market to take that risk). Alternatively, XYZ Oil Co can go directly to the bond market, and issue a bond, but the same problem arises. There's a risk being passed around that neither XYZ, the bank, nor the bondholder wants: that of oil price changes. Because nobody wants this risk, everyone demands additional buffer: XYZ wants cheaper financing in case oil prices fall, while the bank/bondholders want extra interest or lower loan-to-value in case oil prices fall. The only person who wants this risk (at a price, of course) is the speculator, and those who want the risk are in a position to provide the best price on it.

The fundamental problem, and why speculators and a futures market are necessary, is that there is a mismatch between buyers and sellers. Producers have long life assets so they would like to have a long dated market where they can reliably hedge their risks and focus on the business of actual oil exploration and extraction. Meanwhile, refiners generally are very seasonal in their activities and need to hedge a certain spread between oil and gasoline. Airlines are very similar to refineries but they're only hedging an input cost. Both refiners and airlines are unwilling to hedge further out in the curve because they're uncertain about what demand will really look like (although there is also some corporate psychology in here...). But either way, you need the middlemen because the two guys at either end just can't come up and agree on a price in an efficient manner. The middlemen serve their function (a function that is in demand), and they're paid for it (at least, on net - many middlemen just blow up).

For the same reason, car dealers exist. :)

Offline No H2O

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #193 on: March 06, 2011, 10:08:56 am »
Just get the speculators out of the market...

I don't know if it is true or not, but a co-worker told me that there is a European bank who openly states "we do not deal with speculators".
What you won't find in my car is a coffee, cigarette and a cell phone. What you will find is a driver; imagine that, a driver in a vehicle. What an effing concept!
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Offline Schmengie

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #194 on: March 07, 2011, 12:21:47 pm »
Oil is up again, to $106 this morning. It looks like another round of price increases is just around the corner so I'm gonna fill 'er up first chance I get.
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Offline safristi

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #195 on: March 07, 2011, 02:15:24 pm »



[/quote]
That is the savings as I read it. That is an appreciable amount to save...at the expense on an anal probe once a week.  :o  ;D
[/quote]...

  I thought the Probe was decent,but discontinued........... :shuffle:..scan me damn me but don't put me on the NO FLY list...i has to pee  ;)..............
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 02:17:25 pm by safristi »

Offline RX7heaven

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #196 on: March 13, 2011, 10:56:54 am »
As gas prices increase, the economics of car upgrades make more financial sense. You can improve your vehicles fuel economy with gas treatments, synthetic oils, low restriction air filters, low roll resistance tires, high flow mufflers, and even aero aids. Are CVT transmissions efficient enough to put up with them? :drive:
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Offline dr_spock

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #197 on: March 13, 2011, 06:13:14 pm »
Wouldn't it be easier to buy a small fuel effecient car like a Yaris than trying to upgrade an existing one?


Offline Marko

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #198 on: March 13, 2011, 09:27:59 pm »
I'm not worried about the price of gas. My daily commute to work is 10 minutes. Gas uses up only a very small insignificant percent of my income. If I commuted an hour each way and had to fill up every week then I might be worried.

Offline Wolverine

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Re: Anyone worried about the price of gas?
« Reply #199 on: March 13, 2011, 09:55:14 pm »
Don't live in Canada, yet  ;D, didn't use to worry about gas price since my commute to work was a total of 16km. Now my commute is 50km in total and it hurts my wallet.

The price of ethanol here in Brazil is absurd now, it's not worth anymore.
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