Author Topic: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars  (Read 4373 times)

Offline ArticSteve

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Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« on: January 28, 2011, 12:41:32 pm »
Jan 28, 2011

Peter Gorrie
Special to the Star

Residents of a west-end high-rise condominium just got the following message in a letter from their management board president:

“Don’t buy an electrically powered vehicle in the expectation that you can have it recharged or powered on our premises … for now, thinking about buying an electrically powered vehicle may not be a practical thing.”

I learned why at a meeting with members of the board and the condo’s major management committee.

The building was constructed in the late 1980s. None of its roughly 450 underground parking spaces, on three levels, is wired. The garage contains only two or three outlets for maintenance work.

As with all older condos, the electricity bill covers the entire building, including private and common areas. The expense is apportioned among the units according to their floor area.

So, meeting participants argued, even if the owner of a battery-powered car could plug into a maintenance outlet — which would be difficult to arrange — it would be unfair.

As the president’s letter puts it: “Anyone who uses one of the electrical outlets in our garage to power or recharge a vehicle is using power paid for by all unit owners. This is comparable to having the gasoline used in one’s car paid for by all unit owners as part of their monthly condominium assessment.

“Condominiums currently do not supply gas for residents’ vehicles and do not provide a location for their vehicles to get gas.”

This argument isn’t iron-clad: Residents with low electricity consumption already subsidize energy-hog neighbours who keep lights blazing, crank up the air conditioning with the balcony door open, and spend hours watching a 50-inch plasma TV. Still, it’s potent.

We discussed possible options.

A suggestion that those with charging stations pay a surcharge to cover the approximate cost didn’t generate enthusiasm.

Neither did the idea that individual residents could pay to have charging stations installed in their parking spaces, even though, since the devices can bill users individually, metering needn’t be a problem.

The resistance stems partly from technical and legal worries; partly from costs.

With enough demand, condo managers might ask companies that supply stations to bid on installing them. Even so, retrofitting would be expensive. Installing more than a handful in the building could require a new trunk wire from an off-site transformer and additional heavy-duty wiring within the garage, on top of the $2,000 or so for each station.

Concentrating the stations in one area of the garage, instead of having them sprinkled here and there, should cut the cost. But to do so would almost certainly require exchanges of parking spaces. That, said the condo members, wouldn’t fly because residents own their spaces and guard them jealously.

Concerns were also raised about how to control car-charging so the electricity supply isn’t overloaded if they’re all plugged in at once: Could the municipal utility manage things on a neighbourhood scale or would each building require its own controls?

Those at the meeting chuckled at a proposal for a “no plug-in policy” similar to the condo’s ban on pets, and at the idea plugs could be installed around the outdoor tennis courts.

But they responded with relief when informed that plug-in cars will arrive — if at all — slowly and in small numbers. The challenging issue, it seems, could safely be put aside for awhile.

Which is generally what’s been happening throughout the GTA; a situation that will exclude plug-in vehicles from many of the very urban areas where they’re supposed to be of greatest benefit.


Offline Mike

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 12:47:43 pm »
You had to know this was coming.  It is a solid argument; nevermind even if the condo was wired properly how could the circuits handle the charge?  With the Nissan Leaf, you need to apply for ownership currently and anyone who is not a home owner is automatically exempted off the list (renters too).  I know someone on the short list and one of the up-coming steps is to have an electrician visit his house to ensure the high capacity charger can be wired into his garage.

I am waiting for how Western Canada will deal with electric vehicles too since most parking lots have outlets for block heaters. 

Offline dkaz

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 01:02:58 pm »
If I ever got an electric car, I would offer to pay for all necessary upgrades... panel/breaker, conduit, meter (all units are individually metered, so it's just a matter of adding another one for the car), conduit and wiring, and finally the main plug. However if I had to upgrade the main incoming breaker for the building as well, that would be a pretty substantial cost, but 115V @ less than 30A is like three microwaves, plus I assume the charging will be done overnight. If possible, I would set a timer to only allow the Prius to charge between midnight and 5am.

New condos I've worked on have individually metered plugs at a certain number of parking stalls.

Offline tpl

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 01:18:14 pm »
Interesting. I am 2 weeks away from starting a big project to totally gut and remodel our basement.  Our garage is attached to one end of the house.   While the basement is being rewired I am planning to have a 240v 40A circuit wired from the panel to the garage, roughed in. ( and another so that a future owner of the house can install a stove point to make the basement into an apartment if they wish)  I have plenty of panel space for the breakers and a 200 amp service.

Note that I will never own an electric car even if they give them out in cornflakes packets but putting in the wires seems like a tiny increment to the desirability of the house when or if we sell.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline Schmengie

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 01:25:06 pm »
 I can't see the Leaf being the ride of choice for a lot of condo dwellers, or just about anyone else for that matter. This car is a completely impractical choice for most people, especially single-car families. It's meant for well-off home-owners in fair-weather zones, a car they can drive a few miles to office while proclaiming how 'green' they are. The rest of the time they'll use that 5-Series or Escalade that's parked in the double garage.  ::)
 
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 01:27:33 pm by Schmengie »
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Offline Mike

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2011, 01:31:14 pm »
I can't see the Leaf being the ride of choice for a lot of condo dwellers, or just about anyone else for that matter. This car is a completely impractical choice for most people, especially single-car families. It's meant for well-off home-owners in fair-weather zones, a car they can drive a few miles to office while proclaiming how 'green' they are. The rest of the time they'll use that 5-Series or Escalade that's parked in the double garage.  ::)
 

Actually, a stipulation from Nissan is that you need to be at least a two car family.  The whole idea I beleive is to sell them to people who would have success from them and not those ho would get stranded, or blow the power grid out of thier house.

Offline Schmengie

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2011, 01:45:36 pm »
I can't see the Leaf being the ride of choice for a lot of condo dwellers, or just about anyone else for that matter. This car is a completely impractical choice for most people, especially single-car families. It's meant for well-off home-owners in fair-weather zones, a car they can drive a few miles to office while proclaiming how 'green' they are. The rest of the time they'll use that 5-Series or Escalade that's parked in the double garage.  ::)
 

Actually, a stipulation from Nissan is that you need to be at least a two car family.  The whole idea I beleive is to sell them to people who would have success from them and not those ho would get stranded, or blow the power grid out of thier house.

And that makes the Leaf anything but a 'game-changer' or revolutionary in any sense of the word. The major benefit of the Leaf - it's low fuel cost - is being passed on to people who don't really care about that in the first place. Any emissions benefits are illusory at best and non-existent at worst because electricity doesn't just flow out of the wall by magic, it has to be generated somehow. Emissions are simply being transferred to the gas or coal-fired plants that generate electricity in most of this country.

Offline mrthompson

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2011, 02:20:08 pm »

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2011, 02:21:15 pm »
I can't see the Leaf being the ride of choice for a lot of condo dwellers, or just about anyone else for that matter. This car is a completely impractical choice for most people, especially single-car families. It's meant for well-off home-owners in fair-weather zones, a car they can drive a few miles to office while proclaiming how 'green' they are. The rest of the time they'll use that 5-Series or Escalade that's parked in the double garage.  ::)
 

Actually, a stipulation from Nissan is that you need to be at least a two car family.  The whole idea I beleive is to sell them to people who would have success from them and not those ho would get stranded, or blow the power grid out of thier house.

And that makes the Leaf anything but a 'game-changer' or revolutionary in any sense of the word. The major benefit of the Leaf - it's low fuel cost - is being passed on to people who don't really care about that in the first place. Any emissions benefits are illusory at best and non-existent at worst because electricity doesn't just flow out of the wall by magic, it has to be generated somehow. Emissions are simply being transferred to the gas or coal-fired plants that generate electricity in most of this country.

AFAIK in both BC and Ontario the majority of electricity is generated using hydro and nuclear plants. Here, they've been closing coal generation in favour of nuclear mostly for awhile now. The latter can be dirty in terms of mining, clean-up and storage, but I doubt it can be as devastating as in the documentary CBC showed yesterday. I couldn't find it, but this, although older will sum it up.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eucr370Oz60

... but whatever makes the PM proud to provide energy security for the neighbour while cherishing their way of life.
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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2011, 02:38:11 pm »
If you want an electric vehicle and your condo strata votes charging stations down or it isn't practical to retro fit the parking area then move to one that will support electric vehicles.

Vancouver charges ahead with electric-car plug-ins
Quote
Under the plan approved Thursday, developers must include plug-ins for electric cars in at least 20 per cent of parking stalls in new condominium and apartment buildings, along with some city-owned parking lots.

Offline dkaz

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2011, 02:42:22 pm »
Coal power plants still have less emissions than gasoline per kw, and it can be even further reduced with CO2 capturing devices.

Offline Schmengie

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2011, 03:21:34 pm »
Coal power plants still have less emissions than gasoline per kw, and it can be even further reduced with CO2 capturing devices.

Even if fossil-fuel generating plants had no emissions at all and the question of carbon sequestration was solved, what about the capacity problem? If electric cars suddenly become popular overnight, the demand for electricity will go through the roof overnight as well. The price of electricity will go up dramatically because the capacity to meet the increased demand just isn't there. Not only that, but with a city full of electric cars charging up at night pretty soon the cheaper 'off-peak' electricity rates will be no more.Decreased gasoline sales will result in decreased tax revenues for government as well. How will that be made up? There's only one obvious answer to that question.

As I see it, electric cars are a non-starter not just for the reasons I've already mentioned but because the infrastructure needed to support them will be paid for by everyone, whether they drive an electric vehicle or not.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 03:33:26 pm by Schmengie »

Offline tenpenny

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 03:33:57 pm »
As I see it, electric cars are a non-starter not just for the reasons I've already mentioned but because the infrastructure needed to support them will be paid for by everyone, whether they drive an electric vehicle or not.

I'm pretty sure the existing infrastructure for cars is paid for by everyone whether they drive one or not.  Similarly, I'm pretty sure the existing infrastructure for aircraft is paid for by everyone, whether they fly or not.
My diesel car self-identifies as an electric vehicle.

Offline Schmengie

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2011, 03:44:40 pm »
As I see it, electric cars are a non-starter not just for the reasons I've already mentioned but because the infrastructure needed to support them will be paid for by everyone, whether they drive an electric vehicle or not.

I'm pretty sure the existing infrastructure for cars is paid for by everyone whether they drive one or not.  Similarly, I'm pretty sure the existing infrastructure for aircraft is paid for by everyone, whether they fly or not.

If I'm not buying gasoline I'm not paying gas taxes and if I don't fly I'm not paying the fees and taxes that apply to that activity either. A lot of the revenue from those goes to support their respective infrastructures such as roads and airport improvements, although I admit we all pay for them to a certain extent whether we use them or not. I believe users by far pay most of the cost unless someone can show me otherwise.

Offline dkaz

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2011, 04:05:30 pm »
Most roads are built off of income taxes, whether you use them or not.

And most recharging will happen overnight, when demand is minimal. And sooner or later as gasoline gets more and more expensive, what then? I take public transit to work but I know it's not an option for many of you and besides our public transit systems in all the major cities aren't even prepared to handle a double in transit usage, they're already at capacity as is.

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2011, 04:28:05 pm »
Quote
As I see it, electric cars are a non-starter not just for the reasons I've already mentioned but because the infrastructure needed to support them will be paid for by everyone, whether they drive an electric vehicle or not.

I can't follow your logic here. Just because there are certain obstacles in reshaping the future of personal transportation you suggest we keep burning oil and other natural resources, such as agricultural crops, natural gas to the point we are left with none? And then what, all of us should begin cycling?
Of course the infrastructure will be paid by everyone the taxpayers, just like about everything else, useless, beneficial or not does. Roads, healthcare, education, science, governing, policing, military, wars, support to foreign countries we go to war with and so on and so forth. So, I don't understand why something that will make city residents healthier and will likely to help solve the climate change crisis should be an exception from the list  ???
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 04:29:41 pm by DanYanoff »

Offline Schmengie

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2011, 05:33:55 pm »
Quote
As I see it, electric cars are a non-starter not just for the reasons I've already mentioned but because the infrastructure needed to support them will be paid for by everyone, whether they drive an electric vehicle or not.

I can't follow your logic here. Just because there are certain obstacles in reshaping the future of personal transportation you suggest we keep burning oil and other natural resources, such as agricultural crops, natural gas to the point we are left with none? And then what, all of us should begin cycling?
Of course the infrastructure will be paid by everyone the taxpayers, just like about everything else, useless, beneficial or not does. Roads, healthcare, education, science, governing, policing, military, wars, support to foreign countries we go to war with and so on and so forth. So, I don't understand why something that will make city residents healthier and will likely to help solve the climate change crisis should be an exception from the list  ???

 I grant you that costs will be borne by everyone, one way or another, fair or not. I just happen to think that the present state of the electric car art isn't adequate enough to be a viable alternative. The cars are far too impractical, the infrastructure isn't there and I'm not convinced that we have enough clean generating capacity to replace all the gasoline we're supposedly not going to use. If we continue using finite fossil fuels to generate electricity for our electric cars, how are we solving the problem? 

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2011, 06:33:40 pm »
Quote
As I see it, electric cars are a non-starter not just for the reasons I've already mentioned but because the infrastructure needed to support them will be paid for by everyone, whether they drive an electric vehicle or not.

I can't follow your logic here. Just because there are certain obstacles in reshaping the future of personal transportation you suggest we keep burning oil and other natural resources, such as agricultural crops, natural gas to the point we are left with none? And then what, all of us should begin cycling?
Of course the infrastructure will be paid by everyone the taxpayers, just like about everything else, useless, beneficial or not does. Roads, healthcare, education, science, governing, policing, military, wars, support to foreign countries we go to war with and so on and so forth. So, I don't understand why something that will make city residents healthier and will likely to help solve the climate change crisis should be an exception from the list  ???

 I grant you that costs will be borne by everyone, one way or another, fair or not. I just happen to think that the present state of the electric car art isn't adequate enough to be a viable alternative. The cars are far too impractical, the infrastructure isn't there and I'm not convinced that we have enough clean generating capacity to replace all the gasoline we're supposedly not going to use. If we continue using finite fossil fuels to generate electricity for our electric cars, how are we solving the problem? 

True, currently "mass"- produced electrics are not equal to ICE cars which had a century to evolve. They can not be the best choice for everyone today. But they are not "impractical" due to some concept or principal fault. Remember the first cell phones? Just about everything was wrong with them. Two decades later we can't imagine leaving home without one. Same with EVs today, only as opposed to cells phones and other early electronics, fortunately the only thing we have left to fix is their price. I'm not kidding. If Nissan engineers today were told to make a car equal to the ICE equivalent in convenience and range, no matter the cost, they'd triple the battery volume and give it liquid thermal management to have it work in absolutely any kind of climate. Nobody would by it, thus the car makers are starting low on the electrics' capabilities in order to make them grasp some market share. Once there, the cost of the new tech will inevitably go down and in another decade or so ppl will be asking each other why it hadn't been done sooner.
On power generation using fossil fuels. Even if 100% was generated by burning coal, it would still be more efficient to charge electric cars as opposed to burning an energy equivalent of that coal in millions of individual ICE. In ON e.g., AFAIK over 50% of energy is generated by hydro and nuclear plants, so there is no question the more EVs we charge the easier we'll breath. But there is no doubt that power generation should be changing towards clean energy in turn. And it doesn't need to stay in its existing shape and form. I think it is easier to develop solar power by having home owners interested to install photovoltaics on the roof tops while the government needs to develop centralized off shore wind power.

Offline dougjp

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2011, 06:39:26 pm »
Quote
As I see it, electric cars are a non-starter not just for the reasons I've already mentioned but because the infrastructure needed to support them will be paid for by everyone, whether they drive an electric vehicle or not.

I can't follow your logic here. Just because there are certain obstacles in reshaping the future of personal transportation you suggest we keep burning oil and other natural resources, such as agricultural crops, natural gas to the point we are left with none? And then what, all of us should begin cycling?
Of course the infrastructure will be paid by everyone the taxpayers, just like about everything else, useless, beneficial or not does. Roads, healthcare, education, science, governing, policing, military, wars, support to foreign countries we go to war with and so on and so forth. So, I don't understand why something that will make city residents healthier and will likely to help solve the climate change crisis should be an exception from the list  ???

 I grant you that costs will be borne by everyone, one way or another, fair or not. I just happen to think that the present state of the electric car art isn't adequate enough to be a viable alternative. The cars are far too impractical, the infrastructure isn't there and I'm not convinced that we have enough clean generating capacity to replace all the gasoline we're supposedly not going to use. If we continue using finite fossil fuels to generate electricity for our electric cars, how are we solving the problem? 

I just loved to read that message from the condo. At last, reality meets the purely electric car! The din of politics, greeniebabies  and fad has so far drowned out all reality. Myself, I think the idea of pure electric cars are like a slow motion train wreck just starting, which if left unchecked is bound to become a major problem. I think hydrogen powered is the future answer, and this interim step should be abandoned immediately because its got failure written all over it.

The possibilities are so many it takes no time to think them up. How about this one, not hard to imagine. One of these stalled on a highway at night in minus 20C because the poor old batteries' range were surprised by COLD and didn't get the owner home as it should have. The owner died along with the drivers of five normal cars that slammed into the "unlit brick" sitting on the highway. I feel most sorry for those five people who could have been home with their wives/husbands and children, who will never see their husbands/wives again. I hope I'm not one of them, because they will be needless victims. Those people didn't buy such a car. The buyer of the electric vehicle should have known better, and there's really no excuse for that one.

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Condo residents warned against purchasing electric cars
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2011, 07:07:43 pm »
You've been warned!