Topic: Test Drive: 2011 Scion tC

[gotak]

A bit of a yawner. Thing about these entry level sports car is, in my experience, they sort of end up feeling "not quite". Not quite powerful enough to really push you into your seat when you boot it. Not quite enough handling and grip to let you really go around a corner at pee your pants speeds, but usually are quite hard enough to make bumpy roads uncomfortable. All at the same time being not quite luxurious enough to be really enjoyable just being inside. While outside, not quite a work of art either.

Overall, I think if someone buying their first car ask me about this car. I'd say if you must but it might be better to just buy a cheaper one for now and when you can afford it get something truly fun.

You know, most people actually have to drive to work on public roads and don't have a road course in their back yard. Yes an SRT8 or 5.0 might be more fun but the operating costs of those cars puts them out of most commuter or student shopping lists. Big power = big fuel, and because you can only drive a little over the speed limit without losing your license anyway it's really a moot point. I drive an older Mazda and pass more powerful cars on the road all the time - I'm getting 10-50% better fuel economy and we're on the same road going the same speed.

IMO, hot hatches and compact sports cars are the best combination of power and practicality, that's why just about every mag praises the GTI as one of 'the best' cars, extant. It doesn't throw you into your seat, but it also fits 4 people comfortably, gets 33mpg highway and costs under $30K. To me, the Tc is like an entry-level GTI - not quite at the same level of refinement or power but also significantly cheaper.

That's why I say these cars don't make that much sense. They are in between. A compromise. And ends up feeling rather watered down when you have one. Big power isn't a moot point and nor does it have to come with big fuel bills. That much can be see in the Sonata turbo making 274 hp out of a 2 liter turbo engine while returning similar fuel economy to the regular 2.4 liter sonata. And my own car the 2010 Mazdaspeed 3 returns the same fuel economy as my last car the "in between not quite fast" Sentra SE R. So my running cost is actually similar. The difference is (while the speed 3 isn't an all out sports car either) if I boot it now on an on ramp I can perfectly legally enjoy being shoved back into my seat and not having to be stuck in the slow lane with people who wants to drive at 70 on a 100kph road because the performance allows me to merge safety into faster traffic even if the guy in front of me decides he wants to merge at 60 kph. If you really look at the spec of this scion tc you'll see you aren't getting great fuel economy for 180hp. I do about 10.4 to 10.7 liter/100 in the city in my speed 3. This scion is rated at 10.2 per 100 km and you know in reality it's likely to be less.

You bring up the GTI which is interesting because well the power, refinement is why the GTI is a good car. Providing (as it so appears on insideline's blog this week) you don't drive it too hard on a bumpy mountain road. The tc isn't an entry level GTI. It's a Tc period. And the real problem with the Tc? The aging Civic Si. That's the one car that really gets close to being an entry level GTI. It returns very similar performance numbers to the GTI while the Tc is 8 seconds to 60 mph? (6.X for both GTI and Si). 8 seconds is only .6 of a second faster than a bog standard Honda civic with the 1.8 liter engine. Honestly, why is the Tc any good at being a entry level sport car?

[gotak]

A bit of a yawner. Thing about these entry level sports car is, in my experience, they sort of end up feeling "not quite". Not quite powerful enough to really push you into your seat when you boot it. Not quite enough handling and grip to let you really go around a corner at pee your pants speeds, but usually are quite hard enough to make bumpy roads uncomfortable. All at the same time being not quite luxurious enough to be really enjoyable just being inside. While outside, not quite a work of art either.

Overall, I think if someone buying their first car ask me about this car. I'd say if you must but it might be better to just buy a cheaper one for now and when you can afford it get something truly fun.

Entry level sports cars/hot hatches would be a good thing and probably better sellers if the manufacturers were allowed to persuade the Insurance companies into giving discounts for young drivers for these cars. Sadly that is not allowed in Ontario... probably not allowed anywhere any more. Back in the '60s in the UK Triumph got the Spitfire off to a good start by making it possible for 20 year olds to insure one.

A good alternative would be for the manufacturers to sponsor  one make racing series... pump up the tires, wear a crash helmet and be able to keep your warranty. IIRC the lowest level of Showroom stock was like that. ( Anyone who knows, I welcome correction)

Far as I know french manufacturers still do insurance rebates in the UK no? At least a few years back when Top gear and fifth gear actually reviewed everyday cars they used to mentioned it a lot.

[rrocket]

First you have to stop comparing this car to turbo cars like the GTI and Speed3 in terms of fuel economy and obviously performance.  When doing the MPG tests, a turbo isn't spooling and making power.  So the economy from this 180HP car is perfectly fine.  Throw the supercharger or the turbo on the TC and it will still get the same MPG, which would make it perfectly in line economy wise to the other boosted cars.  

Next, let's look at price.  The GTI is $8,000 more and the Speed3 is $12,000 more..both boosted cars.  The Civic Si, the closest competitor is $5,000 more.  So for someone looking to get into a sporty coupe, what else is there in the $20K range??  Nothing.  Anything?

As far as performance, the 0-60 in the 8.0 is with the auto.  I have seen 7.4 listed for the stick.  So all in all not too bad.  Yes the Honda offers about 20 more HP, but the Scion offers about 40 more TQ.  So pick your poison.  TRD will most certainly be offering the supercharger for the TC too.  It was a super reasonable $3200 and added an as much as an extra 60-70HP to the TC.  Dealers in the US were doing it for $3600 all in with installation and the warranty wasn't voided.  That's good bang for the buck.  Now even if the unit costs $5,000 in Canada and adds only 50HP, that puts it easily slighlty beyond the SI for about the same money.  And you don't have to rev the out of it AND you'd have about 60 TQ more than the Honda.  

Now I know some of you will say "yea, but that's modded".  Well that's the way the Scion has been marketed in the USA.  The entry price is cheap and the accessories extensive so you can make it your own.  Even their commercial campaign have used this as a selling point with actual customer modded Scions in them.  I can't recall any other ad campaign doing anything similar.

Overall, for the entry price I think this is a good deal.  And with all of the left over cash it's entirely possible to make it better than an SI for the same or less money..and to many that will be very appealing.

[gotak]

First you have to stop comparing this car to turbo cars like the GTI and Speed3 in terms of fuel economy and obviously performance.  When doing the MPG tests, a turbo isn't spooling and making power.  So the economy from this 180HP car is perfectly fine.  Throw the supercharger or the turbo on the TC and it will still get the same MPG, which would make it perfectly in line economy wise to the other boosted cars.  

Next, let's look at price.  The GTI is $8,000 more and the Speed3 is $12,000 more..both boosted cars.  The Civic Si, the closest competitor is $5,000 more.  So for someone looking to get into a sporty coupe, what else is there in the $20K range??  Nothing.  Anything?

As far as performance, the 0-60 in the 8.0 is with the auto.  I have seen 7.4 listed for the stick.  So all in all not too bad.  Yes the Honda offers about 20 more HP, but the Scion offers about 40 more TQ.  So pick your poison.  TRD will most certainly be offering the supercharger for the TC too.  It was a super reasonable $3200 and added an as much as an extra 60-70HP to the TC.  Dealers in the US were doing it for $3600 all in with installation and the warranty wasn't voided.  That's good bang for the buck.  Now even if the unit costs $5,000 in Canada and adds only 50HP, that puts it easily slighlty beyond the SI for about the same money.  And you don't have to rev the out of it AND you'd have about 60 TQ more than the Honda.  

Now I know some of you will say "yea, but that's modded".  Well that's the way the Scion has been marketed in the USA.  The entry price is cheap and the accessories extensive so you can make it your own.  Even their commercial campaign have used this as a selling point with actual customer modded Scions in them.  I can't recall any other ad campaign doing anything similar.

Overall, for the entry price I think this is a good deal.  And with all of the left over cash it's entirely possible to make it better than an SI for the same or less money..and to many that will be very appealing.

How much would it cost to add an LSD to the scion tc? Is it even possible? Maybe there's some of the 5000 bucks differences between the tc and the Si.

The regular Civic's 8.6 seconds is also automatic. So if you have the manual version it might also gain a bit of time. End result is well you can get a cheaper car with similar straight line performance with better fuel economy to boot.

Granted, most owners aren't going to race their tc. But you know what most owners aren't going to mod their cars either. While it's good value for sure. We aren't only talking value on this forum are we? It's a car forum not a soccer mom forum after all. I think those of us who are saying "meh" to this new tc aren't saying it's bad value. Personally, I think that for it's target market of young buyers there are options. VW Golf (3 door starts at 20k just like the Tc and similar performance, with less kit but that's not always the entire story of whether someone will buy), Jetta, (the already mentioned) stock civic (I hear they are doing a fire sale on them these days, providing you are a hot asian girl in a short short skirt LOL), Corolla XRS (7.8 seconds to 60, 23k), and lets not forget the armericans. Frankly, there's quite a bit of competition here and while the scion does have a lot of features for the price. Is price/pound of feature going to sell the car alone? I don't know I mean on one hand if low price is the concern maybe people will think it's too much and get something even more basic. On the other hand, maybe people who think ok 20k is ok but I can afford slightly more will go for something more costly but maybe provide more of that hand down the front of your pants feeling when you step on it.

[rrocket]

^^The LSD from TRD is a Quaife and it runs $1000.

[CatsEye68]

This is the deal of the century for Scion's target audience (aka younger folk) (aka clueless poseurs)

Fixed it for you.

[gotak]

^^The LSD from TRD is a Quaife and it runs $1000.

For the 2011 or the old one? Cause I can't find any reference.

[rrocket]

^^The LSD from TRD is a Quaife and it runs $1000.

For the 2011 or the old one? Cause I can't find any reference.

The old one.  I suspect most of the same stuff they had will carry over.  The 2011 TRD Scion catalog isn't complete yet...

[gotak]

1 more thing I forget to mention. Isn't hyundai doing a turbo veloster? So tc gets launched now, veloster turbo comes out in mid 2012 or so. Not sure if that means at some point they have to offer a tc turbo trim level to compete. Never mind the current Genesis Coupe 25k for RWD. Anyhow I get to some this tc makes a lot of sense. To me thought, it's a goldie locks of low cost sporty car.

[conwelpic]

 The Civic Si, the closest competitor is $5,000 more.  So for someone looking to get into a sporty coupe, what else is there in the $20K range??  Nothing.  Anything?

yes there is, the Forte Koup starting at nearly $2000 less than the tC also with a 6 spd manual and runs on regular gas not premium like the Si.

[rrocket]

 The Civic Si, the closest competitor is $5,000 more.  So for someone looking to get into a sporty coupe, what else is there in the $20K range??  Nothing.  Anything?

yes there is, the Forte Koup starting at nearly $2000 less than the tC also with a 6 spd manual and runs on regular gas not premium like the Si.

Ahh yes..thanks!  Forgot about that one.  Although the base EX isn't equipped as sporty...

[testdriver]

Did any of u guys here actually test drove this? I did, on the day that it first arrived at the dealer. On paper, it appears to be a great bargain, and the specs are all very reasonable for the class. I had very high hopes for this car, but was hugely disappointed after a test drive. Being an enthusiast, I drove the 6sp manual. Gotta say it's one of the worse manual experience ever. All those ppl ranting about rev hang in Civic si or Genesis coupe? The Scion is way worse. The shifter action was just average, with pretty long throws. The clutch pedal has excessively long travel with sloppy engagement point. The steering is overassisted and felt vague, and the ebay quality leather wrap on the wheel didn't help one bit. On paper, the power to weight ratio seems decent, but it felt like turd on the one I drove. I am guessing the lazy electronic throttle is the culprit.

I wanted to like this car so much, I even tried to find excuses so I can turn a blind eye on all the flaws, but it's impossible. It's hard to believe how a Japanese made 2dr can get so wrong. None of the flaws involve seriously expensive fixes, they are all just tuning really. It's as if somebody mistaken the tuning for an Avalon instead. I can't understand anyone who remotely enjoys driving, can tolerate this car more than 10min.

[rrocket]

Did any of u guys here actually test drove this? I did, on the day that it first arrived at the dealer. On paper, it appears to be a great bargain, and the specs are all very reasonable for the class. I had very high hopes for this car, but was hugely disappointed after a test drive. Being an enthusiast, I drove the 6sp manual. Gotta say it's one of the worse manual experience ever. All those ppl ranting about rev hang in Civic si or Genesis coupe? The Scion is way worse. The shifter action was just average, with pretty long throws. The clutch pedal has excessively long travel with sloppy engagement point. The steering is overassisted and felt vague, and the ebay quality leather wrap on the wheel didn't help one bit. On paper, the power to weight ratio seems decent, but it felt like turd on the one I drove. I am guessing the lazy electronic throttle is the culprit.

I wanted to like this car so much, I even tried to find excuses so I can turn a blind eye on all the flaws, but it's impossible. It's hard to believe how a Japanese made 2dr can get so wrong. None of the flaws involve seriously expensive fixes, they are all just tuning really. It's as if somebody mistaken the tuning for an Avalon instead. I can't understand anyone who remotely enjoys driving, can tolerate this car more than 10min.

The few reviews I've read were the complete opposite of yours.  Their only gripe was the stiff suspension on broken pavement.

"On the other hand, though, we thoroughly enjoyed rowing through the gates of the six-speed manual transmission. "

"We found the Scion’s electric power steering unit is a good match for this car. Exhibiting great on-center feeling, as well as direct feedback from the road, which almost allowed us to “think” the car through a turn. The steering is phenomenally improved over the outgoing car’s overboosted, yet too heavy tiller"

"We were especially pleased with the new wheel, which is now the envy of cars costing three times as much as the little tC. There's a very nice leather wrap around the newly thicker rim, and the three spokes feel nice and sturdy. Redundant radio controls are now standard as well. But the best part of the new steering wheel is the flat bottom, which makes the humble tC's interior at least appear sportier than its predecessor."

"The electric power steering system feels much like a conventional hydraulic setup, the advantage being lighter weight and fewer mechanical parts to wear out over time. The tC’s short wheelbase gives it an excellent turning radius, easily capable of U-turns on narrow city streets. At the same time, on-center response at speed is quite positive."

Not one mention of poor steering, rev hang on, etc...

[2JDM]

Did any of u guys here actually test drove this? I did, on the day that it first arrived at the dealer. On paper, it appears to be a great bargain, and the specs are all very reasonable for the class. I had very high hopes for this car, but was hugely disappointed after a test drive. Being an enthusiast, I drove the 6sp manual. Gotta say it's one of the worse manual experience ever. All those ppl ranting about rev hang in Civic si or Genesis coupe? The Scion is way worse. The shifter action was just average, with pretty long throws. The clutch pedal has excessively long travel with sloppy engagement point. The steering is overassisted and felt vague, and the ebay quality leather wrap on the wheel didn't help one bit. On paper, the power to weight ratio seems decent, but it felt like turd on the one I drove. I am guessing the lazy electronic throttle is the culprit.

I wanted to like this car so much, I even tried to find excuses so I can turn a blind eye on all the flaws, but it's impossible. It's hard to believe how a Japanese made 2dr can get so wrong. None of the flaws involve seriously expensive fixes, they are all just tuning really. It's as if somebody mistaken the tuning for an Avalon instead. I can't understand anyone who remotely enjoys driving, can tolerate this car more than 10min.

Well, the last time Consumer Reports tested it, they said it lacked a "Sporty flair". Coming from Consumer Reports, that says alot...

[kicker]

good to know testdriver and 2hondas1bmw .

added.
 
 the reviewer made some points on the engines performance that made me question a long past decision about the car but your 2 posts negated the engines benefits on the car as a whole .

[ArticSteve]

It's a fantastic value and would be a great choice (in automatic) for any young lady who are suckers for sunroofs.  The only downer, in keeping with true Toyota tradition, heated seats aren't offered in base trim.

[Arctic_White]

I'm very interested in test-driving this car.

I sincerely hope this car doesn't suffer from the same rev-hang that my previous '08 Civic Si did. 

[testdriver]

Yes, rrocket, I do realize there are a lot of reviews out there that complements the car in all those aspects, but the fact is, I didn't go to the testdrive with a huge expectation with driving dynamics. I didn't expect it to be a Celica replacement. To put it into perspective, the car I testdrove before the Scion was the new Legacy 6spd manual, base model. Relatively speaking, the steering feel between the two is about the same. However, the manual driving experience on that one is much much better. Shift throw and feel are similar, but clutch take up was precise, and get this, zero rev hang issue! (Yet, the Impreza manual has huge rev hang issue. No clue why.) I test drove a lot of new manual cars in the recent years, and have to say that was a rare treat. Funny when I read the reviews for the Subaru, much of it was opposite to my experience. Then again, I often take reviews with a grain of salt. Most reviews focus too much on value, interior space, styling, etc, but very little is dedicated to the driving dynamics. Many new manual cars have rev hang in various severity, but how often do u see that mentioned in a professional review? I believe throttle calibration on a manual car is fundamental. Any bit of rev hang is just going to ruin the experience. If a Legacy can pull it off without the dreadful rev hang, why can't others do that? Excuses because it's an emission control side effect? And what? The Legacy isn't low emission? Do car engineers even bother testing their own cars anymore? Just 10min around the block, that's all it takes.

As with steering feel, I found cars that offer great feel at the handling limit, may not necessary mean they are good at commuter speed. And vice versa. I assessed the Scion as a sporty daily commuter. Maybe it feels better at the limit?

Arctic white, let us know what u think of the car if u get a chance to test the manual tC.

[CatsEye68]

The few reviews I've read were the complete opposite of yours. 

But really... what would you expect from the automotive media? It's a new model, it's a Toyota product... not likely they will say anything critical.

[conwelpic]

, I drove the 6sp manual. Gotta say it's one of the worse manual experience ever. All those ppl ranting about rev hang in Civic si or Genesis coupe? The Scion is way worse. The shifter action was just average, with pretty long throws. The clutch pedal has excessively long travel with sloppy engagement point.

if I remember correctly that was a similar comment from this video on Motorweek

http://www.youtube.com/user/Motorweek#p/u/4/e5yjsEevoOQ