Topic: Honda Civic only nets two stars on revamped NHTSA side impact test

[safristi]

wot is an anecdotal fatality..........................like onna CARTOON or somesuch........

[Shnak]

I'm not losing sleep about driving it.

This is key. The car is no less safe today than it was last week. The testing methodology has just changed. No doubt the next Civic will conform to the new methodology...

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

[footlong58]

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

I wish I had your problems...   

[Shnak]

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

I wish I had your problems...   

And what problems are those?

[gotak]

Doesn't suprise me.

In the last 12 months. I've come across two accident scenes.

The first one involved a stolen early 90's minivan which t-boned a current generation Honda Civic on the driver's side. Both the driver and passenger(sitting on the driver's side) died as a result of that injury.

The scond involved a current generation Acura CSX which was t-boned on the passenger side by either a Pontiac Grand Prix or G6. The passenger died. The driver was seriously injured.

In both cases, I couldn't get over how much damage was inflicted, even with the side airbags deploying. The front clip of the vehicle t-boning the Civic/CSX was literally in the vehicle.

Any idea of the speeds involved in these accidents?

Side impact is brutal. There's almost no metal and no space to disperse the energy. Unless we make all cars into giant spheres there's no good solution.

Its much better to slam into someone head on at 60km/h (total, and ideally evenly split) than to have someone slam into you at 45km/h from the side.

We can built cars, small ones at that, which are very safe. The problem is they wouldn't work for daily drivers.

What I mean is if you look at the crashes that happens in WRC. It seems it's possible to make cars that can protect the occupants from impacting trees, panzer traps etc at racing speeds. But of course, full roll cage etc isn't practical for everyday.

As for the side impact safety in real world. Yeah, I agree it's pretty much the worse case. The problem is that it also happens easily with left turns being a lot of times difficult to see when you have a SUV or a bus waiting to left turn on the opposite side. I guess the best way to deal with this is to not turn until you are 100% sure. Yeah it'll cause some problems with people honking. But better to have some a-hole being mad over being dead.

[dkaz]

I heard that the Civic didn't have side impact beams on their doors, opting to rely on the side impact airbags instead?? It doesn't make sense to me but eh. Maybe they reinforced the bottom part of the pillars as well.

I wouldn't want to be T-Boned in ANY vehicle, 2 star or 5 star.

[Mitlov]

I'm not losing sleep about driving it.

This is key. The car is no less safe today than it was last week. The testing methodology has just changed. No doubt the next Civic will conform to the new methodology...

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

Whenever a test is made harder, older cars are not going to do particularly well on it.  The next generation cars will always be safer.  But that doesn't mean that the cars made a week before the new test was implemented are suddenly deathtraps.  It just means that a 2011 car is not as safe as a 2012 car is going to be.   But you know what?  Soon another test will be designed, and the new-for-2012 cars will struggle to keep up. 

So I'm not losing sleep.  Relative to the other cars around at the time I was buying, the Civic does just fine.

Fun fact: the Mazda3 also gets two stars for side impact, as does the Versa.  Both got "good" side impact ratings from the IIHS.  This isn't an issue with the Civic specifically; it's an issue with a generally-well-respected test that's been around for a few years and a brand-new test meant to be harder than the existing tests (to advance the industry as a whole).

[Shnak]

I'm curious to see how the Corolla fares in these new tests. Interested in the results for the Impreza too, Subaru's usually do very well in safety tests.

[Mitlov]

I'm curious to see how the Corolla fares in these new tests. Interested in the results for the Impreza too, Subaru's usually do very well in safety tests.

I'd lay money that the Corolla and the outgoing Elantra and Focus and Cobalt don't outperform the outgoing Civic on the new test.  If they're ever tested.  I wouldn't be surprised if the MkVI Golf and the Impreza outperformed the Civic; those two brands tend to go above-and-beyond when it comes to safety.

[footlong58]

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

I wish I had your problems...   

And what problems are those?

Trivial ones, like being ticked off about the old saftey rating of a car you don't even own...

[Shnak]

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

I wish I had your problems...   

And what problems are those?

Trivial ones, like being ticked off about the old saftey rating of a car you don't even own...

Ticked off? I look ticked off to you in this thread? I'd certainly say that I'm more surprised and disappointed than ticked off.

[Mitlov]

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

I wish I had your problems...   

And what problems are those?

Trivial ones, like being ticked off about the old saftey rating of a car you don't even own...

Ticked off? I look ticked off to you in this thread? I'd certainly say that I'm more surprised and disappointed than ticked off.

Surprised and disappointed?  Really?  You're surprised and disappointed that an outgoing car doesn't excel at a brand-new crash test meant to be harder than any of the existing tests?  Like I said, I'd love to see testing of the outgoing Elantra and Sonata, given that Hyundai's new Sonata got three stars (frontal impact) on the first go with the new test, and it took three tries to get it to five stars.

[Dante]

I'm not losing sleep about driving it.

This is key. The car is no less safe today than it was last week. The testing methodology has just changed. No doubt the next Civic will conform to the new methodology...

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

LOL... How do you think your 2010 Sonata would fair in the new tests? Do you think it would be much better than the Civic and other older designs? I'm curious if you would be ticked off finding out the results (assuming a 2-3 star rating) and what would you do.

[Shnak]

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

I wish I had your problems...   

And what problems are those?

Trivial ones, like being ticked off about the old saftey rating of a car you don't even own...

Ticked off? I look ticked off to you in this thread? I'd certainly say that I'm more surprised and disappointed than ticked off.

Surprised and disappointed?  Really?  You're surprised and disappointed that an outgoing car doesn't excel at a brand-new crash test meant to be harder than any of the existing tests?  Like I said, I'd love to see testing of the outgoing Elantra and Sonata, given that Hyundai's new Sonata got three stars (frontal impact) on the first go with the new test, and it took three tries to get it to five stars.

Who cares about the old Elantra or the new Sonata? I'm talking about the Civic here. And I would expect the Civic to be much better than whatever the test standards were before the new ones because Honda's always played up their safety R&D. And in your own words, I do find it surprising and frankly puzzling that a Honda isn't expected to beat safety standards like the Imprezza and Golf presumably do. I honestly put Honda at a higher level than what they're showing with these tests, so yes, I was surprised and disappointed about the results for the Civic, especially considering it likely won't be replaced for at least another year, if not longer.

[Shnak]

I'm not losing sleep about driving it.

This is key. The car is no less safe today than it was last week. The testing methodology has just changed. No doubt the next Civic will conform to the new methodology...

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

LOL... How do you think your 2010 Sonata would fair in the new tests? Do you think it would be much better than the Civic and other older designs? I'm curious if you would be ticked off finding out the results (assuming a 2-3 star rating) and what would you do.

I have no clue, but it really doesn't matter as my Sonata isn't being sold anymore whereas the Civic still is.

Also, how come the Cruze hasn't been rated yet? A lot of the new offerings for 2011 have been rated (new Sonata, Fiesta, Mazda2, etc.). Why not the Cruze? I'd expect it to do very well with its 10 standard airbags.

[Mitlov]

Who cares about the old Elantra or the new Sonata? I'm talking about the Civic here. And I would expect the Civic to be much better than whatever the test standards were before the new ones because Honda's always played up their safety R&D. And in your own words, I do find it surprising and frankly puzzling that a Honda isn't expected to beat safety standards like the Imprezza and Golf presumably do. I honestly put Honda at a higher level than what they're showing with these tests, so yes, I was surprised and disappointed about the results for the Civic, especially considering it likely won't be replaced for at least another year, if not longer.

That's the problem.  You (and the original article) restrict the conversation to the Civic specifically, when most cars of the Civic's generation (designed in mid-2000s) fare similarly (Mazda3 and Versa get two stars; Sentra and Camry get three).  This is a generational issue, not a Civic-specific issue.

And in case you're not aware, a new Civic is coming for model year 2012.  It was originally planned to be here for model year 2011, though they ended up holding off for another year (the rumor is they decided to downsize it or keep the size constant instead of the original plan to make it larger than the 2006-2010 Civic).  The Civic isn't any newer of a design than your Sonata is, and this generation Civic will continue be on sale for less than a year.

I don't know what sort of ads Honda runs in Canada, but in the States, they're best known for fuel economy and reliability.  They're pretty good on safety, but I've never thought of them as heads and shoulders above everybody else.  I've never thought of them as current crash-test leaders like VW and Subaru, or historical safety leaders like Volvo and MB.  Maybe they play up the "safety" card more in Canada, claiming to be the best of the best of the best, but I doubt most Americans think of them in that way.

EDIT:  And even though the previous-generation Sonata isn't being sold anymore, YOU own one.  You bought it not soon before I bought my 2011 Civic.  So are you worried about how previous-generation cars perform on the new test or not?  Because if you're not worried for your own sake, I'm not sure why you're worried for mine.

[Dante]

I'm not losing sleep about driving it.

This is key. The car is no less safe today than it was last week. The testing methodology has just changed. No doubt the next Civic will conform to the new methodology...

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

LOL... How do you think your 2010 Sonata would fair in the new tests? Do you think it would be much better than the Civic and other older designs? I'm curious if you would be ticked off finding out the results (assuming a 2-3 star rating) and what would you do.

I have no clue, but it really doesn't matter as my Sonata isn't being sold anymore whereas the Civic still is.

Also, how come the Cruze hasn't been rated yet? A lot of the new offerings for 2011 have been rated (new Sonata, Fiesta, Mazda2, etc.). Why not the Cruze? I'd expect it to do very well with its 10 standard airbags.

It's fine by me, but I think you made a strong statement saying "I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done" related to Civic (which is soon to be replaced anyway), without realizing your new car is in a very same situation so you must be "ticked off" based on your own comment.
I’m pretty sure you’ve stated in several occasion how important the safety is for you so sure thing you thought the 2010 Sonata is a one of the safest cars based on the previous ratings, which perhaps was one of the reasons you bought it.

This is what few posters picked up on.

[footlong58]

I'm not losing sleep about driving it.

This is key. The car is no less safe today than it was last week. The testing methodology has just changed. No doubt the next Civic will conform to the new methodology...

Sure, but I'd be ticked if I bought a car thinking it was one of the safest ones out there, but turns out it isn't when more complete tests are done.

LOL... How do you think your 2010 Sonata would fair in the new tests? Do you think it would be much better than the Civic and other older designs? I'm curious if you would be ticked off finding out the results (assuming a 2-3 star rating) and what would you do.

I have no clue, but it really doesn't matter as my Sonata isn't being sold anymore whereas the Civic still is.

Also, how come the Cruze hasn't been rated yet? A lot of the new offerings for 2011 have been rated (new Sonata, Fiesta, Mazda2, etc.). Why not the Cruze? I'd expect it to do very well with its 10 standard airbags.

Whoa, all these questions...  You should write a few letters, get to the bottom of this, for all our sakes.

[Mitlov]

Also, how come the Cruze hasn't been rated yet? A lot of the new offerings for 2011 have been rated (new Sonata, Fiesta, Mazda2, etc.). Why not the Cruze? I'd expect it to do very well with its 10 standard airbags.

It appears that only about two dozen cars have been rated so far; there are maybe a hundred cars to rate.  They can't test everything on one day.

[Shnak]

Who cares about the old Elantra or the new Sonata? I'm talking about the Civic here. And I would expect the Civic to be much better than whatever the test standards were before the new ones because Honda's always played up their safety R&D. And in your own words, I do find it surprising and frankly puzzling that a Honda isn't expected to beat safety standards like the Imprezza and Golf presumably do. I honestly put Honda at a higher level than what they're showing with these tests, so yes, I was surprised and disappointed about the results for the Civic, especially considering it likely won't be replaced for at least another year, if not longer.

That's the problem.  You (and the original article) restrict the conversation to the Civic specifically, when most cars of the Civic's generation (designed in mid-2000s) fare similarly (Mazda3 and Versa get two stars; Sentra and Camry get three).  This is a generational issue, not a Civic-specific issue.

And in case you're not aware, a new Civic is coming for model year 2012.  It was originally planned to be here for model year 2011, though they ended up holding off for another year (the rumor is they decided to downsize it or keep the size constant instead of the original plan to make it larger than the 2006-2010 Civic).  The Civic isn't any newer of a design than your Sonata is, and this generation Civic will continue be on sale for less than a year.

I don't know what sort of ads Honda runs in Canada, but in the States, they're best known for fuel economy and reliability.  They're pretty good on safety, but I've never thought of them as heads and shoulders above everybody else.  I've never thought of them as current crash-test leaders like VW and Subaru, or historical safety leaders like Volvo and MB.  Maybe they play up the "safety" card more in Canada, claiming to be the best of the best of the best, but I doubt most Americans think of them in that way.

EDIT:  And even though the previous-generation Sonata isn't being sold anymore, YOU own one.  You bought it not soon before I bought my 2011 Civic.  So are you worried about how previous-generation cars perform on the new test or not?  Because if you're not worried for your own sake, I'm not sure why you're worried for mine.

Never said you should be worried... all I said was that I expected more out of Honda... Is it really wrong to expect more out of a car maker?

Oh, and Honda prides itself on safety.
http://corporate.honda.com/safety/details.aspx?id=history

Smartly designed passenger cars can provide high levels of protection. We believe safety can and must apply to all vehicles. With vehicle bodies designed to manage crash energy in a controlled manner and direct it away from the passenger cabin, combined with advanced safety technologies, Honda and Acura models achieve industry-leading occupant protection.

It would appear that isn't quite the truth, is it?


The Bottom Line
Whether it’s passenger cars or light truck models, Honda and Acura provide exceptional levels of protection.


Uh uh.