Topic: Test Drive: 2011 Infiniti G25x

[nsmyhte]

I don't like how there's such a difference in power between the 37 and the 25. Over 100 hp and nearly 100 lb/feet torque is way too much in my opinion. 

[mmret]

I think it's a good comparison to the Acura TSX.  They are both about the same size, price range and brand niche.  Front wheel drive vs rear wheel.

That is like comparing the Audi A4 2.0T FrontTrac vs the BMW 328i RWD.
But the difference is the 2010 TSX actually has a higher MSRP than the G25 RWD.
Shouldn't FWD be technically cheaper to build than RWD?

Still haven't seen the pricing on the 2011 TSX yet.
Is Acura planning to skip 2011 all together and go straight to 2012?

Most buyers don't know nor care about FWD vs. RWD.

And of the ones who do know, probably 80% of them want FWD "so I won't need snow tires"

[Shnak]

I don't like how there's such a difference in power between the 37 and the 25. Over 100 hp and nearly 100 lb/feet torque is way too much in my opinion. 

Without looking specific numbers, I'd guess the difference is about the same as between a BMW 323i and 335i. The major difference is the price... for like $3k, you get 100hp extra with Infiniti... with the BMW's, you need like $20k for those extra ~100hp. It's a no-brainer with Infiniti, and a major decision with BMW.

[nsmyhte]

I don't like how there's such a difference in power between the 37 and the 25. Over 100 hp and nearly 100 lb/feet torque is way too much in my opinion. 

Without looking specific numbers, I'd guess the difference is about the same as between a BMW 323i and 335i. The major difference is the price... for like $3k, you get 100hp extra with Infiniti... with the BMW's, you need like $20k for those extra ~100hp. It's a no-brainer with Infiniti, and a major decision with BMW.

Yes, but at least BMW has the 328 which splits the difference. With the Infiniti (and Lexus), the top engine is very powerfull but the base engine is far too weak in comparison.  I don't want to make such a significant compromise in power.

[Shnak]

I don't like how there's such a difference in power between the 37 and the 25. Over 100 hp and nearly 100 lb/feet torque is way too much in my opinion. 

Without looking specific numbers, I'd guess the difference is about the same as between a BMW 323i and 335i. The major difference is the price... for like $3k, you get 100hp extra with Infiniti... with the BMW's, you need like $20k for those extra ~100hp. It's a no-brainer with Infiniti, and a major decision with BMW.

Yes, but at least BMW has the 328 which splits the difference. With the Infiniti (and Lexus), the top engine is very powerfull but the base engine is far too weak in comparison.  I don't want to make such a significant compromise in power.

Sorry, I meant the 328i in my previous post... 328 sedan has 230hp for $41k, while the 335 sedan has 300hp for $51k. You get 70hp for $10k. If you compare the 323 (200hp for $37k) with the 335, that number increases to $14k for an extra 100hp. Either way, it's a huge decision that affects the purchase price by a lot.

Compare that to the G25x with its 218hp for $40k and the G37x with its 328hp for $43k. For $3k, you get an extra 110hp. It really is a no brainer to get the G37. Why bother with the G25 at all if its only $3k less than the G37? Now, I have to point out that the G25 is available as a RWD for $37k while the G37 is only available with the AWD at $43k. That makes the difference between the two engines $6k, but one is RWD and the other AWD. If you compare AWD to AWD, the difference for the engine itself is $3k. If you want RWD, I suppose the G25 makes sense... but if you prefer AWD, the G37 is a no brainer.

[Jaeger]

If you compare AWD to AWD, the difference for the engine itself is $3k. If you want RWD, I suppose the G25 makes sense... but if you prefer AWD, the G37 is a no brainer.

The G25 ONLY makes sense to me in the RWD base model.

Jaeger

[Shnak]

If you compare AWD to AWD, the difference for the engine itself is $3k. If you want RWD, I suppose the G25 makes sense... but if you prefer AWD, the G37 is a no brainer.

The G25 ONLY makes sense to me in the RWD base model.

Jaeger

But does the G25 at $36.5k (218hp, automatic) make sense to you compared to IS250 (204hp, auto, $34.5k), 323i (200hp, auto, ~$38.5k) and C250 (201hp, auto, ~$37.5k) at similar prices? Not entirely sure how they compete against each other in terms of equipment/features, but they can't be that far off.

[Jaeger]

If you compare AWD to AWD, the difference for the engine itself is $3k. If you want RWD, I suppose the G25 makes sense... but if you prefer AWD, the G37 is a no brainer.

The G25 ONLY makes sense to me in the RWD base model.

Jaeger

But does the G25 at $36.5k (218hp, automatic) make sense to you compared to IS250 (204hp, auto, $34.5k), 323i (200hp, auto, ~$38.5k) and C250 (201hp, auto, ~$37.5k) at similar prices? Not entirely sure how they compete against each other in terms of equipment/features, but they can't be that far off.

Absolutely it does.  Having driven both the G and the IS, I'd easily take the G.  Haven't driven that particular BMW or the Mercedes.

Jaeger

[Shnak]

Yeah the IS looks to be the weakest of the bunch because of its smaller size, and its less-sporty nature. But personally, unless the G25 is much better equipped, I'd have a tough time overlooking the 323i and C250 in favor of the G25. No matter what people say, Infiniti is no BMW or M-B.

[CanuckS2K]

Yeah the IS looks to be the weakest of the bunch because of its smaller size, and its less-sporty nature. But personally, unless the G25 is much better equipped, I'd have a tough time overlooking the 323i and C250 in favor of the G25. No matter what people say, Infiniti is no BMW or M-B.

That's true, they are more reliable!   

Kidding aside, I do think the G25 is a good $2k more than it should be.  Infiniti has always offered the value proposition when compared to BMW, Lexus, etc, but that is gone with the G25.  It still holds true with the G37, so I am not sure why Infiniti priced the G25 in the same ballpark with the competitors and so close to the G37.  Having owned a number of Infiniti's over the last several years, I am a huge fan of their products, but I think they missed the mark on the G25 when it comes to pricing. 

And why Infiniti dropped the RWD 7AT G37 this year is beyond me.   

[Jaeger]

Yeah the IS looks to be the weakest of the bunch because of its smaller size, and its less-sporty nature. But personally, unless the G25 is much better equipped, I'd have a tough time overlooking the 323i and C250 in favor of the G25. No matter what people say, Infiniti is no BMW or M-B.

In what respects would you expect the BMW and Mercedes to be superior to the G - comparing base models, of course?  I don't know that I'd be willing to grant them presumptive superiority on nameplate alone.  While I haven't driven the current C-class, I have driven past models and came away rather underwhelmed. Take away the impressive hood ornament and there wasn't much that made a strong positive impression.  Good?  Yes, absolutley.  But there are plenty of good cars on the road today.  The 335i is an awesome machine and just about definitive of what a sports sedan should be.  But the 323 is not the same beast in terms of engine or suspension.

I think the G would prove close enough to either of those to make it a game.

Jaeger

PS - Canuck - you think the G should be 34k?? Seriously??

[Shnak]

Yeah the IS looks to be the weakest of the bunch because of its smaller size, and its less-sporty nature. But personally, unless the G25 is much better equipped, I'd have a tough time overlooking the 323i and C250 in favor of the G25. No matter what people say, Infiniti is no BMW or M-B.

In what respects would you expect the BMW and Mercedes to be superior to the G - comparing base models, of course?  I don't know that I'd be willing to grant them presumptive superiority on nameplate alone.  While I haven't driven the current C-class, I have driven past models and came away rather underwhelmed. Take away the impressive hood ornament and there wasn't much that made a strong positive impression.  Good?  Yes, absolutley.  But there are plenty of good cars on the road today.  The 335i is an awesome machine and just about definitive of what a sports sedan should be.  But the 323 is not the same beast in terms of engine or suspension.

I think the G would prove close enough to either of those to make it a game.

Jaeger

PS - Canuck - you think the G should be 34k?? Seriously??

Matter of personal opinion. I'm amazed every time I drive my in-laws 12 year old C230 with almost 200k on the clock, still solid as a rock to this day. I can only imagine how great owning/driving a brand new C250 would be with the small V6 instead of a their 2.3L I4. As for the 323i, its base engine still is a gem IMO. I've driven one a few years ago (when it made about 190hp) and it was incredibly smooth.

I might be wrong, but I still view Infiniti a notch below those two (and Lexus) in terms of overall refinement. Their horrible interiors from 7-8 years ago are still very fresh in my mind, where there were plenty of hard plastics to be found that creaked as soon as you put a finger on them. That's probably changed since, but that's still tainting my opinion of them after all those years. But of course, I'd drive everything in the price-range before buying anything to make sure I'm not wrong here, but to be honest, I'd be surprised if the G25 came out as the winner for my $.

For the G37 though, I might be ready to overlook a bit more considering its value proposition compared to its competitors... but at a similar price, I don't see the G25 being worth it against the big boys.

[CanuckS2K]

Yeah the IS looks to be the weakest of the bunch because of its smaller size, and its less-sporty nature. But personally, unless the G25 is much better equipped, I'd have a tough time overlooking the 323i and C250 in favor of the G25. No matter what people say, Infiniti is no BMW or M-B.

In what respects would you expect the BMW and Mercedes to be superior to the G - comparing base models, of course?  I don't know that I'd be willing to grant them presumptive superiority on nameplate alone.  While I haven't driven the current C-class, I have driven past models and came away rather underwhelmed. Take away the impressive hood ornament and there wasn't much that made a strong positive impression.  Good?  Yes, absolutley.  But there are plenty of good cars on the road today.  The 335i is an awesome machine and just about definitive of what a sports sedan should be.  But the 323 is not the same beast in terms of engine or suspension.

I think the G would prove close enough to either of those to make it a game.

Jaeger

PS - Canuck - you think the G should be 34k?? Seriously??

Yeah, I honestly do.  One reason that Infiniti has done well over the last several years is because they offer similar performance (or better) with similar features for less money.  That is gone now with the G25.  Having the G25 priced $2k more than the IS250 isn't a good move IMO.  While I would personally take the G25 over the IS250 any day of the week, I think a lot of people would choose the IS simply because it is more of a cachet brand than Infiniti is.  It's unfortunate, but a lot of people buy a car solely based on what symbol is on the hood........and the G25 being priced the same (or more expensive) as Lexus, BMW, MB, etc was a mistake.  IMHO of course.  

[CanuckS2K]

Yeah the IS looks to be the weakest of the bunch because of its smaller size, and its less-sporty nature. But personally, unless the G25 is much better equipped, I'd have a tough time overlooking the 323i and C250 in favor of the G25. No matter what people say, Infiniti is no BMW or M-B.

In what respects would you expect the BMW and Mercedes to be superior to the G - comparing base models, of course?  I don't know that I'd be willing to grant them presumptive superiority on nameplate alone.  While I haven't driven the current C-class, I have driven past models and came away rather underwhelmed. Take away the impressive hood ornament and there wasn't much that made a strong positive impression.  Good?  Yes, absolutley.  But there are plenty of good cars on the road today.  The 335i is an awesome machine and just about definitive of what a sports sedan should be.  But the 323 is not the same beast in terms of engine or suspension.

I think the G would prove close enough to either of those to make it a game.

Jaeger

PS - Canuck - you think the G should be 34k?? Seriously??

Matter of personal opinion. I'm amazed every time I drive my in-laws 12 year old C230 with almost 200k on the clock, still solid as a rock to this day. I can only imagine how great owning/driving a brand new C250 would be with the small V6 instead of a their 2.3L I4. As for the 323i, its base engine still is a gem IMO. I've driven one a few years ago (when it made about 190hp) and it was incredibly smooth.

I might be wrong, but I still view Infiniti a notch below those two (and Lexus) in terms of overall refinement. Their horrible interiors from 7-8 years ago are still very fresh in my mind, where there were plenty of hard plastics to be found that creaked as soon as you put a finger on them. That's probably changed since, but that's still tainting my opinion of them after all those years. But of course, I'd drive everything in the price-range before buying anything to make sure I'm not wrong here, but to be honest, I'd be surprised if the G25 came out as the winner for my $.

For the G37 though, I might be ready to overlook a bit more considering its value proposition compared to its competitors... but at a similar price, I don't see the G25 being worth it against the big boys.

Now this I strongly disagree with.  I owned an 03 G Sedan for 4 years so I can speak from experience.  Were there hard plastics?  Yep.  Did they creak when you put a finger on them?  Absolutely not.  In fact, I never had one single rattle during the 4 years of ownership with my 03.  IMHO, the interior of the early model IS250/350s were no better. 

[Jaeger]

I might be wrong, but I still view Infiniti a notch below those two (and Lexus) in terms of overall refinement. Their horrible interiors from 7-8 years ago are still very fresh in my mind, where there were plenty of hard plastics to be found that creaked as soon as you put a finger on them. That's probably changed since, but that's still tainting my opinion of them after all those years. But of course, I'd drive everything in the price-range before buying anything to make sure I'm not wrong here, but to be honest, I'd be surprised if the G25 came out as the winner for my $.

For the G37 though, I might be ready to overlook a bit more considering its value proposition compared to its competitors... but at a similar price, I don't see the G25 being worth it against the big boys.

Well what you're doing is:

a) comparing brands as opposed to specific models.  You can't buy a brand - only individual examples of their products.  I have no reason to think that the G25 is anything less than competitive against these specific entries from BMW and Mercedes and you have yet to enunciate any specific reason why these particular German sedans would inherently be superior;

b) saddling the 2011 G with your perception of the product from 6-7 years ago.  IF someone said the new Sonata "is sure no Accord or Camry" because the cheap interiors and middling engines /  chassis of their products of 8 years ago were still "fresh in their minds" - what would your response be?

Jaeger

Canuck - I strongly agree with your strong disagreement on the interior quality of previous Infiniti products.  There's no way I see the G at 34k though.  Priced an Altima lately?

[Shnak]

Matter of personal opinion. I'm amazed every time I drive my in-laws 12 year old C230 with almost 200k on the clock, still solid as a rock to this day. I can only imagine how great owning/driving a brand new C250 would be with the small V6 instead of a their 2.3L I4. As for the 323i, its base engine still is a gem IMO. I've driven one a few years ago (when it made about 190hp) and it was incredibly smooth.

I might be wrong, but I still view Infiniti a notch below those two (and Lexus) in terms of overall refinement. Their horrible interiors from 7-8 years ago are still very fresh in my mind, where there were plenty of hard plastics to be found that creaked as soon as you put a finger on them. That's probably changed since, but that's still tainting my opinion of them after all those years. But of course, I'd drive everything in the price-range before buying anything to make sure I'm not wrong here, but to be honest, I'd be surprised if the G25 came out as the winner for my $.

For the G37 though, I might be ready to overlook a bit more considering its value proposition compared to its competitors... but at a similar price, I don't see the G25 being worth it against the big boys.

Now this I strongly disagree with.  I owned an 03 G Sedan for 4 years so I can speak from experience.  Were there hard plastics?  Yep.  Did they creak when you put a finger on them?  Absolutely not.  In fact, I never had one single rattle during the 4 years of ownership with my 03.  IMHO, the interior of the early model IS250/350s were no better. 

Well I don't know if they rattled after a few years of ownership, but the dashboard was a sea of creaks as you touched the different materials. Nissan's interiors was just as bad back then (IMO), and to me, it was simply unacceptable for a brand aspiring to compete against the big boys of luxury (M-B, BMW and Audi), your interiors shouldn't remind your drivers of those in Nissan's. But like I said, that may have completely changed. But that's still my perception about the brand in general; a slightly nicer Nissan. That's not quite cutting it, IMO.

But value for money, hey no argument there from me. Well, until the G25, that is.  

[Shnak]

I might be wrong, but I still view Infiniti a notch below those two (and Lexus) in terms of overall refinement. Their horrible interiors from 7-8 years ago are still very fresh in my mind, where there were plenty of hard plastics to be found that creaked as soon as you put a finger on them. That's probably changed since, but that's still tainting my opinion of them after all those years. But of course, I'd drive everything in the price-range before buying anything to make sure I'm not wrong here, but to be honest, I'd be surprised if the G25 came out as the winner for my $.

For the G37 though, I might be ready to overlook a bit more considering its value proposition compared to its competitors... but at a similar price, I don't see the G25 being worth it against the big boys.

Well what you're doing is:

a) comparing brands as opposed to specific models.  You can't buy a brand - only individual examples of their products.  I have no reason to think that the G25 is anything less than competitive against these specific entries from BMW and Mercedes and you have yet to enunciate any specific reason why these particular German sedans would inherently be superior;

b) saddling the 2011 G with your perception of the product from 6-7 years ago.  IF someone said the new Sonata "is sure no Accord or Camry" because the cheap interiors and middling engines /  chassis of their products of 8 years ago were still "fresh in their minds" - what would your response be?

Jaeger

Fair enough. But perception is what it is. My perception is that Infiniti are still "slightly nicer Nissans", not quite up to the level of overall refinement a M-B or BMW will give you. And the fact that Infiniti has to price its G37 so low compared to its actual competitors (335, C350, etc.) shows the car buying public has the same perception of them than I do. Why price the G37 so low if it's perceived as the equal of the 335 and C350? Because it isn't. Right now, it's perceived as a great value, not necessarily as the best car out of the three.

[CanuckS2K]

I might be wrong, but I still view Infiniti a notch below those two (and Lexus) in terms of overall refinement. Their horrible interiors from 7-8 years ago are still very fresh in my mind, where there were plenty of hard plastics to be found that creaked as soon as you put a finger on them. That's probably changed since, but that's still tainting my opinion of them after all those years. But of course, I'd drive everything in the price-range before buying anything to make sure I'm not wrong here, but to be honest, I'd be surprised if the G25 came out as the winner for my $.

For the G37 though, I might be ready to overlook a bit more considering its value proposition compared to its competitors... but at a similar price, I don't see the G25 being worth it against the big boys.

Well what you're doing is:

a) comparing brands as opposed to specific models.  You can't buy a brand - only individual examples of their products.  I have no reason to think that the G25 is anything less than competitive against these specific entries from BMW and Mercedes and you have yet to enunciate any specific reason why these particular German sedans would inherently be superior;

b) saddling the 2011 G with your perception of the product from 6-7 years ago.  IF someone said the new Sonata "is sure no Accord or Camry" because the cheap interiors and middling engines /  chassis of their products of 8 years ago were still "fresh in their minds" - what would your response be?

Jaeger

Canuck - I strongly agree with your strong disagreement on the interior quality of previous Infiniti products.  There's no way I see the G at 34k though.  Priced an Altima lately?

Good point.  I guess I wasn't expecting the G25 to be priced similar to BMW and MB and even more expensive than the Lexus.  Then again, the Lexus is just a small Sedan with a Coupe sized back seat.   

[Jaeger]

Fair enough. But perception is what it is. My perception is that Infiniti are still "slightly nicer Nissans", not quite up to the level of overall refinement a M-B or BMW will give you. And the fact that Infiniti has to price its G37 so low compared to its actual competitors (335, C350, etc.) shows the car buying public has the same perception of them than I do. Why price the G37 so low if it's perceived as the equal of the 335 and C350? Because it isn't. Right now, it's perceived as a great value, not necessarily as the best car out of the three.

Well, you're back to perception.  Or rather, you never left.  But your original question wasn't whether Infiniti was the equal of Mercedes and BMW in brand perception.  It was whether the G25 "makes sense" as a competitor to the Lexus IS250, BMW 323i and Mercedes C.  Surely you will allow that brand perception is only part of that assessment, even if it is - for you - the most important part.

And as to your particular perception - I have driven the G37.  It WAY more than "slightly nicer" than my Altima.  You may choose to remain mired in near decade-old perceptions - or you could try to grasp the current reality.  Or at a minimum, give yourself some current data upon which to base your current perceptions.

Jaeger

[Shnak]

Fair enough. But perception is what it is. My perception is that Infiniti are still "slightly nicer Nissans", not quite up to the level of overall refinement a M-B or BMW will give you. And the fact that Infiniti has to price its G37 so low compared to its actual competitors (335, C350, etc.) shows the car buying public has the same perception of them than I do. Why price the G37 so low if it's perceived as the equal of the 335 and C350? Because it isn't. Right now, it's perceived as a great value, not necessarily as the best car out of the three.

Well, you're back to perception.  Or rather, you never left.  But your original question wasn't whether Infiniti was the equal of Mercedes and BMW in brand perception.  It was whether the G25 "makes sense" as a competitor to the Lexus IS250, BMW 323i and Mercedes C.  Surely you will allow that brand perception is only part of that assessment, even if it is - for you - the most important part.

And as to your particular perception - I have driven the G37.  It WAY more than "slightly nicer" than my Altima.  You may choose to remain mired in near decade-old perceptions - or you could try to grasp the current reality.  Or at a minimum, give yourself some current data upon which to base your current perceptions.

Jaeger

Why is the G37 priced like a base BMW or M-B if the general public perception of Infiniti is at the same level as BMW and M-B? Don't you think Infiniti would price it as high as BMW and M-B do if they thought their cars were perceived as highly as their competitors are? Believe it or not, I'm not the only one who views Infiniti as "slightly nicer Nissans", apparently Infiniti themselves think that based on their own pricing.