Topic: Test Drive: 2011 Infiniti G25x

[CanuckS2K]

Fair enough. But perception is what it is. My perception is that Infiniti are still "slightly nicer Nissans", not quite up to the level of overall refinement a M-B or BMW will give you. And the fact that Infiniti has to price its G37 so low compared to its actual competitors (335, C350, etc.) shows the car buying public has the same perception of them than I do. Why price the G37 so low if it's perceived as the equal of the 335 and C350? Because it isn't. Right now, it's perceived as a great value, not necessarily as the best car out of the three.

Well, you're back to perception.  Or rather, you never left.  But your original question wasn't whether Infiniti was the equal of Mercedes and BMW in brand perception.  It was whether the G25 "makes sense" as a competitor to the Lexus IS250, BMW 323i and Mercedes C.  Surely you will allow that brand perception is only part of that assessment, even if it is - for you - the most important part.

And as to your particular perception - I have driven the G37.  It WAY more than "slightly nicer" than my Altima.  You may choose to remain mired in near decade-old perceptions - or you could try to grasp the current reality.  Or at a minimum, give yourself some current data upon which to base your current perceptions.

Jaeger

Why is the G37 priced like a base BMW or M-B if the general public perception of Infiniti is at the same level as BMW and M-B? Don't you think Infiniti would price it as high as BMW and M-B do if they thought their cars were perceived as highly as their competitors are? Believe it or not, I'm not the only one who views Infiniti as "slightly nicer Nissans", apparently Infiniti themselv
es think that based on their own pricing.

Regardless of perception, if you truly think that Infinti's are simply "slightly nicer Nissans" than you obviously haven't sat in or drove either of them.  Put the whole perception thing aside and tell me if you really believe that. 

[Shnak]

Fine, me and the Infiniti execs are wrong, and you're right. 

[CanuckS2K]

You're basing everything on perception and I'm basing it on reality from personal experience.  You can't get over the whole perception thing without actually commenting objectively.  The fact that you think that they are simply nicer Nissans tells me that it's been a long time since you've sat in one and have probably never even driven one.  I agree that Infiniti doesn't have the same cachet as BMW and MB, so what.  You're statement about them being nicer Nissans is what I disagree with.  From what I can tell, you are basing that solely on public perception, rather than any amount of real experience or knowledge of their product. 

[Shnak]

Who knew saying that Infiniti are slightly nicer Nissans would be such an insult for Infiniti's! Are Nissan's that bad? 

[CanuckS2K]

I wouldn't consider it an insult at all, I am just saying it's simply incorrect.  I'd argue the same point if someone said that Lexus vehicles are only slightly nicer than Toyotas.   

[Shnak]

I wouldn't consider it an insult at all, I am just saying it's simply incorrect.  I'd argue the same point if someone said that Lexus vehicles are only slightly nicer than Toyotas.   

And for the most part, that's exactly what Lexus's are, and it's usually a major knock against them. Why buy an expensive Lexus when a loaded Toyota will be almost as nice and cost less? Like Infiniti, some of their models differ in drivetrain (FWD vs RWD), but they share a lot of the engines/transmissions, and some of the interior bits of both premium brands remind you of those in the mainstream brands. Say what you want, but when you sit in a BMW or M-B, you don't think of 'shared parts bin' engineering.

[blur911]

I wouldn't consider it an insult at all, I am just saying it's simply incorrect.  I'd argue the same point if someone said that Lexus vehicles are only slightly nicer than Toyotas.   

And for the most part, that's exactly what Lexus's are, and it's usually a major knock against them. Why buy an expensive Lexus when a loaded Toyota will be almost as nice and cost less? Like Infiniti, some of their models differ in drivetrain (FWD vs RWD), but they share a lot of the engines/transmissions, and some of the interior bits of both premium brands remind you of those in the mainstream brands. Say what you want, but when you sit in a BMW or M-B, you don't think of 'shared parts bin' engineering.

So is a Kia just a slightly crappier Hyundai? 

BTW, to drivers a RWD car is a very different animal than a FWD car,  A G37 is not a Maxima with some parts moved around.

[CanuckS2K]

I wouldn't consider it an insult at all, I am just saying it's simply incorrect.  I'd argue the same point if someone said that Lexus vehicles are only slightly nicer than Toyotas.   

And for the most part, that's exactly what Lexus's are, and it's usually a major knock against them. Why buy an expensive Lexus when a loaded Toyota will be almost as nice and cost less? Like Infiniti, some of their models differ in drivetrain (FWD vs RWD), but they share a lot of the engines/transmissions, and some of the interior bits of both premium brands remind you of those in the mainstream brands. Say what you want, but when you sit in a BMW or M-B, you don't think of 'shared parts bin' engineering.

So MB and Chrysler have never shared parts?? 

The fact that you are basing your Nissan/Infiniti statements on absolutely zero experience or personal knowledge is what I find baffling.  That's like me saying a G37 uses better interior materials than the 335i even though I've never even sat in a 335.  See what I'm saying?

[Shnak]

I wouldn't consider it an insult at all, I am just saying it's simply incorrect.  I'd argue the same point if someone said that Lexus vehicles are only slightly nicer than Toyotas.   

And for the most part, that's exactly what Lexus's are, and it's usually a major knock against them. Why buy an expensive Lexus when a loaded Toyota will be almost as nice and cost less? Like Infiniti, some of their models differ in drivetrain (FWD vs RWD), but they share a lot of the engines/transmissions, and some of the interior bits of both premium brands remind you of those in the mainstream brands. Say what you want, but when you sit in a BMW or M-B, you don't think of 'shared parts bin' engineering.

So is a Kia just a slightly crappier Hyundai? 

It depends on the models... some Kia models are nicer than their Hyundai equivalent (my generation Sportage is nicer inside than the Tucson of back then, in my opinion), but as a whole, they're pretty equal, IMO.

[Shnak]

I wouldn't consider it an insult at all, I am just saying it's simply incorrect.  I'd argue the same point if someone said that Lexus vehicles are only slightly nicer than Toyotas.   

And for the most part, that's exactly what Lexus's are, and it's usually a major knock against them. Why buy an expensive Lexus when a loaded Toyota will be almost as nice and cost less? Like Infiniti, some of their models differ in drivetrain (FWD vs RWD), but they share a lot of the engines/transmissions, and some of the interior bits of both premium brands remind you of those in the mainstream brands. Say what you want, but when you sit in a BMW or M-B, you don't think of 'shared parts bin' engineering.

So MB and Chrysler have never shared parts?? 

The fact that you are basing your Nissan/Infiniti statements on absolutely zero experience or personal knowledge is what I find baffling.  That's like me saying a G37 uses better interior materials than the 335i even though I've never even sat in a 335.  See what I'm saying?

Sure, Chrysler borrowed many parts from M-B, notably platforms to build the 300, and even the new Grand Cherokee. But you won't sit in a 3-4 year old C-class and find a part that's in the Sebring from the same year.

And I'm talking purely of interiors, no need to drive an Infiniti to judge its interior. And as I said, I'm mostly basing my opinion on the horrible interiors of Infiniti's of about 7 years ago. Things may have changed drastically since, but when looking at recent pictures, I still have the same perception of back then. Whatever, I'll stop now.

I'll be interested to see how the G25 does in North America. I wouldn't be surprised if it's a short-lived experiment, to be honest. Either that, or they slowly creep up the prices for the G37 every year, essentially making the G25 a better deal. We'll see.

[Erik]

I kinda agree with Shnak on this one( I know I know. It can happen. I even agree with rrocket occasionally!). Last summer I drove both the 370Z and the G37S and, while I MUCH preferred the Infiniti, it was undoubtedly a better version of the Nissan product. Now, the M on the other hand, is a much better, much nicer car all around. The Q's always seemed not related to Nissan at all.

[Jaeger]

I kinda agree with Shnak on this one( I know I know. It can happen. I even agree with rrocket occasionally!). Last summer I drove both the 370Z and the G37S and, while I MUCH preferred the Infiniti, it was undoubtedly a better version of the Nissan product. Now, the M on the other hand, is a much better, much nicer car all around. The Q's always seemed not related to Nissan at all.

Of course, there you're latching onto the only two cars from the respective lineups that share a common platform and engine.  Nissan sedans - and sedans are what we're discussing - run on FWD architecture and use less powerful, smaller displacement engines as compared with the more powerful, more luxurious and more sporting RWD Infiniti sedans.  Anyone who suggests that a G37 is merely a "slightly nicer" Altima either a) has sat in neither and certainly driven neither, b) is simply being provocative or c) is entirely ignorant.

Speaking of which - Shnak - how exactly did someone who holds brand perception as not merely everything, but the only thing, ever end up buying a Hyundai?  Don't you know it "can't compete" with Honda an Toyota?  After all, the public views those two with better brand perception.  Why does Hyundai need to price their cars less than Honda and Toyota if they are as good?  Obviously, even Hyundai execs agree they're not as good, right? 

Jaeger

[Shnak]

Speaking of which - Shnak - how exactly did someone who holds brand perception as not merely everything, but the only thing, ever end up buying a Hyundai?  Don't you know it "can't compete" with Honda an Toyota?  After all, the public views those two with better brand perception.  Why does Hyundai need to price their cars less than Honda and Toyota if they are as good?  Obviously, even Hyundai execs agree they're not as good, right? 

Where have I said that perception was the only thing? Never, that's where.

Yep, Hyundai is battling the exact same perception problem as Infiniti is, perception. The difference is that the perception is quickly changing for Hyundai, and their prices are increasing at the same rate. You won't find a huge difference in selling price between an Accord or Camry and a Sonata nowadays, certainly no where as near as the difference (in %) between a 335 and a G37. With every new model that comes out, Hyundai impresses everyone and inches towards the very top of its competitors, and they're getting very close. Infiniti, well, they're still very short of the leaders in their segments, so they have to cut prices to have a few models sell decently. You could say Infiniti is where Hyundai was 10 years ago, in their respective segments.

[Jaeger]

Where have I said that perception was the only thing? Never, that's where.

Well, it's been the ONLY aspect you've been willing to address in discussing the competitive merits of the G25 versus it's German competitors (well, apart from your own near decade-old perceptions of the brand) so the only inference to be drawn is that you do in fact consider it to be the only thing.

Jaeger

[Shnak]

Where have I said that perception was the only thing? Never, that's where.

Well, it's been the ONLY aspect you've been willing to address in discussing the competitive merits of the G25 versus it's German competitors (well, apart from your own near decade-old perceptions of the brand) so the only inference to be drawn is that you do in fact consider it to be the only thing.

And you're good at making inferences, as we all know... 

[Jaeger]

Where have I said that perception was the only thing? Never, that's where.

Well, it's been the ONLY aspect you've been willing to address in discussing the competitive merits of the G25 versus it's German competitors (well, apart from your own near decade-old perceptions of the brand) so the only inference to be drawn is that you do in fact consider it to be the only thing.

And you're good at making inferences, as we all know... 

Which is no response whatsoever to my observation that "perception" has been the one card you have played here - over and over and over and over and over again.  That's not an inference, that's just how it is.

By the way - did you see the Car and Driver comparison test of premium midsize sports sedans?  Audi first, Infiniti second, BMW third:

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/comparisons/10q2/2010_audi_a6_3.0t_quattro_vs._2011_bmw_535i_2011_infiniti_m37-comparison_tests

We can take two things from this:

1) in their view, both Audi and Infiniti compete in the same league as BMW.
2) comparing actual vehicles - as opposed to generalizations about public perceptions - they prefered this particular Infiniti to its competitor from BMW.

10 years behind the competition?  I don't think so.

Jaeger

[Shnak]

Where have I said that perception was the only thing? Never, that's where.

Well, it's been the ONLY aspect you've been willing to address in discussing the competitive merits of the G25 versus it's German competitors (well, apart from your own near decade-old perceptions of the brand) so the only inference to be drawn is that you do in fact consider it to be the only thing.

And you're good at making inferences, as we all know... 

Which is no response whatsoever to my observation that "perception" has been the one card you have played here - over and over and over and over and over again.  That's not an inference, that's just how it is.

So it's not an inference now? But you just said 'the only inference is...'? I'm confused now.

[Shnak]

10 years behind the competition?  I don't think so.

Never said that. Go back and re-read what I said. Then comment.

[Jaeger]

So it's not an inference now? But you just said 'the only inference is...'? I'm confused now.

Yes, you are.  That you have been endlessly pounding the perception drum is not an inference - it is a fact.  The inference to be drawn from that fact is that you believe the perception issue to be the only one that matters in addressing the comparative merits of the Infiniti, BMW and Mercedes sedans which were being discussed.  I am hopeful - but not optimistic - that this will alleviate your state of confusion.

Jaeger

[Shnak]

So it's not an inference now? But you just said 'the only inference is...'? I'm confused now.

Yes, you are.  That you have been endlessly pounding the perception drum is not an inference - it is a fact.  The inference to be drawn from that fact is that you believe the perception issue to be the only one that matters in addressing the comparative merits of the Infiniti, BMW and Mercedes sedans which were being discussed.  I am hopeful - but not optimistic - that this will alleviate your state of confusion.

Jaeger

But how can you say in one post that you're infering something, and then in your post right after that, you say you're not inferring anything? Make up your mind. You're confusing me Jaeger.