Topic: Push for snow tire rebate

[Scarecrow]

Sounds like aaronk could use another guy in his corner...

I completely disagree with the proposed provincial rebate for winter tires, and I completely disagree that winter tires should be mandatory in Ontario.

If someone decides to equip his/her car with winter tires because they feel it's safer, go right ahead.  But it's not the taxpayer's responsibility to reward or incentivize you to do so.

If the insurance companies truly believe that cars are safer with winter tires, then they can discount their rates accordingly.  That should be incentive enough for consumers.

I've been driving for 30 yrs in many different vehicles primarily shod with all-season tires only and have never had problems or felt unsafe.  In fact in today's world where most cars are equipped with ABS, traction control, front-wheel drive (or even AWD), winter tires have never been more UNNECESSARY.  Think back to the good ol' days of rear-wheel drive V8s, if you need a point of reference.

About a year ago, I installed 4 winter tires on my Miata because -- and only because -- I could no longer get good summer performance tires to fit my 14-inch rims.  But my use of the car hasn't changed at all.  It's still only an occasional driver in winter, as it has many other practical limitations in winter weather.  The point is, I'm adult enough to judge when it is or isn't safe to drive my car, and I would expect the same of every other driver out there.

I don't need "Mommy" telling me what to do, and I sure don't need the government telling me I need winter tires on every car I own, when I don't.

[Shnak]

Instead of rewarding buyers for doing what they should be doing, how about penalizing those who don't? The insurance companies should have a penalty charge of 10% for cars who are run without proper winter tires during the winter. Also, you get involved in an accident during winter without proper tires, you'd deductible is automatically increased, and your premiums get increased at a higher rate than had you equipped your car with proper tires.

You want to play with your life, and everyone else's life? You should pay for that.

[quadzilla]

In fact in today's world where most cars are equipped with ABS, traction control, front-wheel drive (or even AWD), winter tires have never been more UNNECESSARY.  Think back to the good ol' days of rear-wheel drive V8s, if you need a point of reference.

Talk about a conflicting statement. 

[mrthompson]

Absolutely should not be a tax rebate for them - my car, my cost - your car, your cost. But I don't believe they should be mandatory. Places like Lethbridge one can get by without all seasons 98% of the time. If you are willing not to drive on those days then no worries. BUT if you have an accident because you are running insufficient tires (either bald at any time or summer tires in the winter) then be prepared to be fined and/or found at fault.

Is tread depth measured by the police after an accident occurrs and road conditions are poor?  If not, perhaps it should be.

[Scarecrow]

Shnak, why on earth should drivers with all-season tires be PENALIZED?  They are lawful and safe to use.

quadzilla, what's so contradictory?  Back in the ol' days people drove cars with no electronic safety gizmos whatsoever and now most vehicles are equipped with all manner of them -- not to mention tire technology has improved dramatically -- which is why winter tires have never been more unnecessary.  QED

[tpl]

In fact in today's world where most cars are equipped with ABS, traction control, front-wheel drive (or even AWD), winter tires have never been more UNNECESSARY.  Think back to the good ol' days of rear-wheel drive V8s, if you need a point of reference.

I DO remember those day in Montreal in the mid '70s when the night was rent by the sound of v8s, and tortured automatic transmissions trying to get 2 ton cars moving by the tried and true method of spinning the wheels until the snow melted.  Nothing much has changed except engines are smaller. The ignorant still believe that a good wheel spin will get them out of a snow drift.

The point Scarecrow is that All-season tires should NOT be lawful in wintertime.

[Mike]

Shnak, why on earth should drivers with all-season tires be PENALIZED?  They are lawful and safe to use.

quadzilla, what's so contradictory?  Back in the ol' days people drove cars with no electronic safety gizmos whatsoever and now most vehicles are equipped with all manner of them -- not to mention tire technology has improved dramatically -- which is why winter tires have never been more unnecessary.  QED

I hear this arguement a lot and although it seems to have merit on the surface, it is actually the other way around.  Yes the old clunkers of yester-year were V8 RWD cars without safety gizmo's, but a lot of things have changed since they that make winter tires more necessary today then back then:

• The big V8-argument.  Cars made less power...and in some cases...less torque with these V8's.  A 1987 Monte Carlo SS had 150HP and 240lb-ft.  A Mazda 6 V6 makes 272HP and 269ft-lb.  Add to this less efficient automatic tansmissions back in the day with taller gearing (3 speed autos anyone) with greater power robbing torque converters. There is more power going to the road in modern cars...period.
• Tires-Width. Back in the day, your average car came with 185-205 width tires.  Average family sedans seem to start around 215 width and grow to 245+ these days.  Wider tires equas less grip in the snow.  It is called the snow show effect.
• Rims-Size. Cars today have much largr rims.  Back in the day cars had 14 or 15 inch rims with 65-80 profile ratings.  Todays cars have 17-19 inch rims in many cases and profiles seem to be in the 40-55 range.  An all season tire starts to freeze when he temp dips below 7 celcious.  The sidewal freezes up quickly making your low profile tire as solid as a rock.  No give in the sidewall = far less grip in the slippery stuff.
• Summer Tires. Many 'mundane' cars are coming from the factory with summer tire installed.  My WRX came with them and is useless even with AWD without winters.  Not a good example?  Look at all the BMWs/Infinitis/Mercedes/etc that come with summer tires driven by people who have no clue about thier limitations?  Cars 20 years ago that came with all seasons now come with summers too like the Mustang GT, Camaro, etc.

[Mike]

A person driving a 94 Cavalier can buy Nexen winter tires for dirt cheap, and with a car prone to breaking down I think winter tires are the least of their worries. Maybe taking transit when conditions are really bad is the better option. I was making decent money coming out of college and didn't buy a car until two years after graduating. Never saw a need to waste my money on one until then.

How can you not understand this?  Some people struggle to put food on the table.  How do they afford winter tires?  I guess they should not be driving then eh?

Public transit isn't always an option.  I live in a City of 27,000, there's no public transit.  You could walk everywhere I guess, with your two year old in your arms. 

Like I said, I don't disagree with mandating them.  However, I have compassion for people that will absolutely not be able to afford them and would get fined, etc.

I agree with your compassion for those struggling to get by.  The issue is to me, where do we draw the line?  As some have said, we can't use a persons financial status to allow them to put others at risk.

To play devils advocate, do we allow them to also not worry about keeping thier vehicles emissions in check, safety thier car, have proper workng lights/wiper blades/regualr tires. Again, not arguing, just counter pointing

[Shnak]

Shnak, why on earth should drivers with all-season tires be PENALIZED?  They are lawful and safe to use.

Alright fine... insurance rates / deductibles should be raised across the board by 20%, and then 20% discount given to those with winter tires. Is that better?

[bridgecity]

A person driving a 94 Cavalier can buy Nexen winter tires for dirt cheap, and with a car prone to breaking down I think winter tires are the least of their worries. Maybe taking transit when conditions are really bad is the better option. I was making decent money coming out of college and didn't buy a car until two years after graduating. Never saw a need to waste my money on one until then.

How can you not understand this?  Some people struggle to put food on the table.  How do they afford winter tires?  I guess they should not be driving then eh?

Public transit isn't always an option.  I live in a City of 27,000, there's no public transit.  You could walk everywhere I guess, with your two year old in your arms. 

Like I said, I don't disagree with mandating them.  However, I have compassion for people that will absolutely not be able to afford them and would get fined, etc.

I agree with your compassion for those struggling to get by.  The issue is to me, where do we draw the line?  As some have said, we can't use a persons financial status to allow them to put others at risk.

To play devils advocate, do we allow them to also not worry about keeping thier vehicles emissions in check, safety thier car, have proper workng lights/wiper blades/regualr tires. Again, not arguing, just counter pointing

Very good points.  Where do we draw the line as you stated, or do we create a new line is the big question. 

There is no question that winters are an improvement over all seasons.  But Saf had a very good point.  Many people comment that people with all seasons drive too slow or hold up traffice.  Should a person with winters be driving faster?  Doesn't that negate the winter performance advantage?

[blur911]

Someone mentioned earlier about Nokian all-weather tires, these would be fine since they are rated for winter driving (mountain peak and snowflake). These kind of tires are fine, winter rated tires.

I agree.  I had the WR's on a Civic, and found them to be very good.  However, I feel the criteria for meeting the winter service rating for tires should be revised.   Some the truck tires out there with the winter service rating are no better than a lot of all seasons.  I really don't know how they get the rating, possibly softer compound, good in deep snow with the large tread?  Terrible on ice though, and thats where it counts the most.

The standards for getting the MountainSnowflake thingy are being revised as it is too easy to pass now.  Expect to see some tire compounds revised or some to lose their ratings.

[blur911]

There is no question that winters are an improvement over all seasons.  But Saf had a very good point.  Many people comment that people with all seasons drive too slow or hold up traffice.  Should a person with winters be driving faster?  Doesn't that negate the winter performance advantage?

Just yesterday on the way to work I was cursing a couple of people poking along at 50kph in the 80kph highway where everyone normally drives 100kph. 
The lanes were clear of snow, but there was a little in the center and off on the sides.   They were too scared or unprepared to drive at normal speeds possibly because they didn't have winter tires on.  I passed one, but couldn't get by the next due to traffic. I ended up being late for work.
 Someone with less patience might have tried passing the second car and caused an accident.  But, the root cause would have been the pokey driver dawdling along because "I don't need winter tires, I'll just drive slower". You know, the same people who never have accidents, they just seem to have them happen all around them.

On another note, should we outlaw winter tires in summer as many of those have proven to stop slower than summer tires by the same margin people are saying makes them necessary in the winter?  How's that for a can of worms.

[bridgecity]

On another note, should we outlaw winter tires in summer as many of those have proven to stop slower than summer tires by the same margin people are saying makes them necessary in the winter?  How's that for a can of worms.

To go even further, maybe summer only tires should be mandated in the summer, no all seasons whatsoever... I kid, I kid....

[vdk]

Shnak, why on earth should drivers with all-season tires be PENALIZED?  They are lawful and safe to use.

Alright fine... insurance rates / deductibles should be raised across the board by 20%, and then 20% discount given to those with winter tires. Is that better?

What's up with you? Have a coffee and wake up.

PS: Your model gives you a delta of close to 0%.

[blur911]

On another note, should we outlaw winter tires in summer as many of those have proven to stop slower than summer tires by the same margin people are saying makes them necessary in the winter?  How's that for a can of worms.

To go even further, maybe summer only tires should be mandated in the summer, no all seasons whatsoever... I kid, I kid....

Perhaps we should also have spring and fall tires, for those in between days.  

[Shnak]

Shnak, why on earth should drivers with all-season tires be PENALIZED?  They are lawful and safe to use.

Alright fine... insurance rates / deductibles should be raised across the board by 20%, and then 20% discount given to those with winter tires. Is that better?

What's up with you? Have a coffee and wake up.

PS: Your model gives you a delta of close to 0%.

Not for those who insist on using all season tires during winter months... they'd be stuck with the 20% raise in insurance rates, while those with proper winter tires would effectively stay at the same rate.

[Mike]

On another note, should we outlaw winter tires in summer as many of those have proven to stop slower than summer tires by the same margin people are saying makes them necessary in the winter?  How's that for a can of worms.

To go even further, maybe summer only tires should be mandated in the summer, no all seasons whatsoever... I kid, I kid....

Perhaps we should also have spring and fall tires, for those in between days.  

Rain tires? Everyone needs a pit crew in thier garage before leaving for work.

[dash]

Mike presented very sound arguments for the differences between decades of technology and performance enhancements we are seeing today, although tires are much better performing today, the offset as mentioned is in tire size which is working against winter driving performance (speaking of non winter tires).

I'm an advocate for the use of winter tires, I used to drive for years only using all season tire during the winter and can attest to the superior performance of a winter tire over an all season tire. Yes, you can get by in the winter with all season tires, so I don’t think winter tires should be mandatory.  But, as I complained in an early reply rant, why should my safety and time be compromised by those who choose to drive unprepared for winter driving (whether that be; driver skills, tires).  It is a matter of respect and consideration for your fellow driver.

I hear the argument “I can get by using all season tires” all the time and in most cases it is a true statement, that driver went through winter without an accident or getting stuck somewhere. But what will it cost to minimize this risk? Not much in my eyes, yes there is a large up front cost to have a 2nd set of tires, but in the long run, there is wear tear on both sets, so there is marginal long run cost of running 2 sets of tires, isn’t that worth it for your safety and others around you?

[Shnak]

I just think it's stupid to 'get by' on all season tires... why not buy winter tires? It'll make your much-loved all season tires last longer as they're stored away in your garage ~4 months every year.

[blur911]

I just think it's stupid to 'get by' on all season tires... why not buy winter tires? It'll make your much-loved all season tires last longer as they're stored away in your garage ~4 months every year.

Some people, like my in-laws, are really fine with all-seasons.  They simply don't drive if it's crappy weather and the car may only move a couple times a week and is never on the 401.  They live in town about a kilometer from the nearest grocery store/pharmacy.  If they really have to get somewhere in a snowstorm, they can call a cab, or us.
Not everyone has to get to work or otherwise regardless of the conditions.