Topic: First Drive: 2011 Subaru Forester

[Lexusfreak]

Sorry if I'm missing a point here but you automatic drivers aren't rowing any gears, what difference does it make if you have 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or whatever gears? All you have to do is mash on the gas pedal and let the car do everything for you. I find automatic gear changes unnerving at times, the less the car has to do it the better IMO. Plus never mind they are more expensive to begin with (you will see the cost of the automatic transmission since the standard transmission is well, standard), they will also be more expensive to fix when (not if, when) they do need repairs.

More forward gears (as a general rule) mean better fuel economy...especially at highway speeds. 

[CatsEye68]

Plus it's a requirement that all automotive writers and internet message board posters describe 4-speed autoboxes as "outdated" and "ancient".

[inco]

I like the word "reliable" when tranny talking.  Yes it would be better with more gears to improve the mpg. However the four has been rock solid and it helps the resale value too.

[Roy]

I think most folks that want more than 4 gears in an auto is primarily to keep up with the Jones'.  In this day and age when most other competitors are providing more gears and in a culture, particularly this segment of our culture, where more is equated to better, having less of anything RELATIVE to the standard deviation is seen as a disadvantage.

The next reason I think is the practicaility of having more gears for better economy and acceleration.  There should be no relationship between reliability and the number of gears; if they can make a 4-spd reliable then they should be able to make a 5-spd reliable, which I believe they do.  I suspect their inability to stick their current auto 5-spd in impreza platform cars is fit with the centre diff or other drivetrain component? 

[quadzilla]

More forward gears (as a general rule) mean better fuel economy...especially at highway speeds.

I would think that the final ratio would have more to do with it than number of gears for hwy mileage.

[Roy]

I would think that the final ratio would have more to do with it than number of gears for hwy mileage.

But then acceleration would be compromised.  The more gears you have the less compromise you have to make between low speed acceleration and high speed movement/push against air resistence.  Having the 4th gear as a decent overdrive gear leaves a lot of work for the first 3 gears to turn the tires; more gears spreads this work increasing acceleration while also providing decent highway mileage.  With 5 or 6 gears, the first 4 could be close-ratio providing good acceleration while 5 and/or 6 could be overdrive gear(s) providing good high speed efficiency/mileage.

[Lexusfreak]

I would think that the final ratio would have more to do with it than number of gears for hwy mileage.

Again, I said as 'a general rule'...if that was the case, why are almost all automakers currently producing 5, 6, 7 & even 8 speed automatics when they can simply 'tweak' the final drive ratio to an existing 4 speed automatic?  One main 'long term' answer...better fuel economy & lower emissions.

One can also inquire what the EPA is doing when it comes to future regulations & how automakers have to respond in order to meet those requirements...but I would guarantee you that those changes would not include 4 speed automatics...

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I would think that the final ratio would have more to do with it than number of gears for hwy mileage.

Again, I said as 'a general rule'...if that was the case, why are almost all automakers currently producing 5, 6, 7 & even 8 speed automatics when they can simply 'tweak' the final drive ratio to an existing 4 speed automatic?  One main 'long term' answer...better fuel economy & lower emissions.

One can also inquire what the EPA is doing when it comes to future regulations & how automakers have to respond in order to meet those requirements...but I would guarantee you that those changes would not include 4 speed automatics...

The number of gears in the box has turned into yet another dick swinging contest, just like tow capacity in pickups and horsepower in muscle cars. Once you get beyond 5 gears, you rapidly get into diminishing returns.

It's a trade-off between driveability and economy. A three speed could be made to deliver competitive fuel economy, but top gear would be a pretty big jump over second. Stick another gear in there to split the difference, much better performance, not much change in fuel economy. As you keep adding gears to the gaps, the marginal gains become smaller and smaller, while expense and complexity increase with every addition.

An argument for higher numbers of gears could be made if the power bands were very narrow as in diesel trucks (500-1000rpm) or peaky two stroke bikes, but modern engines are hugely flexible, and will spend very little time in the intermediate gears. 

The following has two 1.8 litre motors (Corolla & Civic) and two 2.0 litre (Focus & Mazda3) motors. it also has two 4 speed automatics (Corolla & Focus) and two 5 speed automatics (Civic & Mazda3). No real trend for either set of cars.

[priggly]

The Canadian version of the Forester is further evidence that Subaru is going down hill fast and is giving the shaft to the continuing gullible Canadians.

A four-speed transmission indeed?  There is not necessarily anything wrong with a four-speed unless it is in the ancient creaking Forester.

And speaking of Canadians, is anyone aware that for thousands less The Americans get dual-zone climate control while we up here get a single automatic HVAC system?  And did you know the U.S. Forester comes with a seven speaker audio system?  The Canadian Subaru bunch is too cheap to even put a pair of cheap tweeters in the Forester let alone a subwoofer and they must be purchased extra.

And how about safety?  Did you know the U.S. Forester has the signal lights in the outside mirrors while those up here, you guessed it, do not!  How about that for Canadian
Subaru caring abut the safety of its customers?

And all this decontenting for thousands more than the U.S. model??!  How do these greedy bums get away with it?  I'll tell you.  Canadians are too passive and meek to demand better and Subaru Canada knows it.  Therefore they will continue in their profligate ways and if Canadians are willing to put up with it they deserve it, too!

[5 Wheel Drive]

The Canadian version of the Forester is further evidence that Subaru is going down hill fast and is giving the shaft to the continuing gullible Canadians.

A four-speed transmission indeed?  There is not necessarily anything wrong with a four-speed unless it is in the ancient creaking Forester.

And speaking of Canadians, is anyone aware that for thousands less The Americans get dual-zone climate control while we up here get a single automatic HVAC system?  And did you know the U.S. Forester comes with a seven speaker audio system?  The Canadian Subaru bunch is too cheap to even put a pair of cheap tweeters in the Forester let alone a subwoofer and they must be purchased extra.

And how about safety?  Did you know the U.S. Forester has the signal lights in the outside mirrors while those up here, you guessed it, do not!  How about that for Canadian
Subaru caring abut the safety of its customers?

And all this decontenting for thousands more than the U.S. model??!  How do these greedy bums get away with it?  I'll tell you.  Canadians are too passive and meek to demand better and Subaru Canada knows it.  Therefore they will continue in their profligate ways and if Canadians are willing to put up with it they deserve it, too!

I'm not disagreeing with you on price, but ancient and creaking?  It was redesigned for '09, and it certainly doesn't creak.  At least mine doesn't. 

Just looked at the specs for the '11 Forester.  You don't get the upgraded audio until you pay for the 2.5 x Limited. The 2.5 x and Preium get the same 4 speaker system we get here. To get the dual zone climate control you have to go up a trim level again to the 2.5x Touring.  I looked at the photo gallery and the spec sheet, and I saw nothing about turn signals in the mirrors.

[Trainman]

One thing that is very neat with the AT is the ability to lock it into 2nd, using the manual shift mode (SportsShift in Subaru talk) and it will then lock the transfer of power to 50/50, at any speed up to redline.  The biggest failing in my opinion with the slip/n grips that have a lock feature is that it kicks out, typically at around 40 kph.  Not much good when you need AWD now, say at 60 kph.

The Canadian version of the Forester is further evidence that Subaru is going down hill fast and is giving the shaft to the continuing gullible Canadians.

A four-speed transmission indeed?  There is not necessarily anything wrong with a four-speed unless it is in the ancient creaking Forester.

And speaking of Canadians, is anyone aware that for thousands less The Americans get dual-zone climate control while we up here get a single automatic HVAC system?  And did you know the U.S. Forester comes with a seven speaker audio system?  The Canadian Subaru bunch is too cheap to even put a pair of cheap tweeters in the Forester let alone a subwoofer and they must be purchased extra.

And how about safety?  Did you know the U.S. Forester has the signal lights in the outside mirrors while those up here, you guessed it, do not!  How about that for Canadian
Subaru caring abut the safety of its customers?

And all this decontenting for thousands more than the U.S. model??!  How do these greedy bums get away with it?  I'll tell you.  Canadians are too passive and meek to demand better and Subaru Canada knows it.  Therefore they will continue in their profligate ways and if Canadians are willing to put up with it they deserve it, too!

    Guess Subaru is not for you then.  I know when I bought mine, the Canadian models had things that were not available at any price/trim line on the US ones, such as HID lights.  And we got other items as standard that they had to pay extra for, like heated seats and roof rails.  Compared to the competition, the Forester is good value.  Funny about prices too, our base 2004 Sienna was about $2000 more than the slightly up-level Forester that we bought in 2008, yet has much less value content/safety features.  Makes the Forester a real bargain in my eyes.  But each to his own, if a simple thing like a 4 speed AT is a "deal breaker", then so be it.  Easy and quick way to eliminate vehicles from a shopping list.

[Roy]

One thing that is very neat with the AT is the ability to lock it into 2nd, using the manual shift mode (SportsShift in Subaru talk) and it will then lock the transfer of power to 50/50, at any speed up to redline.  The biggest failing in my opinion with the slip/n grips that have a lock feature is that it kicks out, typically at around 40 kph.  Not much good when you need AWD now, say at 60 kph.

That's a neat little trick; is it only in 2nd gear?  If so then it practically kicks out the same as others since most won't be driving in 2nd gear with high rpms at 50 or 60kph.

And with open diffs, a full time awd is realistically going to only provide a little more traction than a slip n' grip awd. The true failure point will not be the torque bias, but when a tire loses grip and how the diffs are able to transfer the torque from the driveshaft to the tires.  A vehicle with open diffs is still in some ways a slip and grip setup.

If one wheel loses all traction, with open diffs it sucks all of the torque to that one spinning wheel.  There may not be enough torque at the other wheels, even on the non-slipping axle to turn the tires and the vehicle will remain stuck.  Granted this is a more extreme situation but highlights how open diffs may defeat any awd system if one wheel has zero traction.  Braking can help redistribute torque though by tricking the diffs that some traction (i.e. resistence) has been gained and may help get you unstuck.

Generally with LSDs, torque is transferred to the side with more grip, rather than less grip and that will help get you out if you are stuck, provided your other tire is still able to gain traction.  This though becomes a disadvantage when driving where a power spike to one wheel can make the vehicle unstable, i.e. a fish tail.  The compromise between the ability to get you out if you are stuck and driving stability varies with the type of LSD - some such as a mechanical diff act faster than others.

[dasiuyan]

The base Forester costs about $5,000 less in the US. I know it is going to be 'more' but 25% more??

Most people in say Cali won't pay much more for AWD but here in Canada well that is a different story. I'm guessing they have to keep the price pretty close from state to state to stop people from cross state shopping.
My WRX is from the US and the 8500 saved was definitly worth the trouble of importing.

You better compare Apple to Apple; although there are $5000 difference, but US base model doesn't have heated seat, windshield wiper de-icer, and other in US' optional Cold Weather Package. By the way, according to Subaru.ca, telescopic steering is standard in all model; US' only available X-premium. But it is also true that, the Cold weather package can be purchased for $500. Still, apple to apply please!

I don't complain too much about the 4-speed gear box with the new engine, like someone said, at least it is not a CVT. The most terrible part of the new engine, i think is the marginal improvement in HP/torque but you have to use synthetic oil..... at same service interval as the old one!!!!

[Lexusfreak]

And speaking of Canadians, is anyone aware that for thousands less The Americans get dual-zone climate control while we up here get a single automatic HVAC system?  And did you know the U.S. Forester comes with a seven speaker audio system?  The Canadian Subaru bunch is too cheap to even put a pair of cheap tweeters in the Forester let alone a subwoofer and they must be purchased extra.

And how about safety?  Did you know the U.S. Forester has the signal lights in the outside mirrors while those up here, you guessed it, do not!  How about that for Canadian
Subaru caring abut the safety of its customers?

And all this decontenting for thousands more than the U.S. model??!  How do these greedy bums get away with it?  I'll tell you.  Canadians are too passive and meek to demand better and Subaru Canada knows it.  Therefore they will continue in their profligate ways and if Canadians are willing to put up with it they deserve it, too!

First off I agree with what dasiuyan has said...you are not comparing apples to apples... 

Are we to assume then that you have purchased & currently own a U.S. version of the Forester?   

I don't think turn signals in the mirrors is that significant of a safety feature either...but it's a very easy fix however.   

Of course the Canadian versions of the Forester are equipped differently than those offered for our friends south of the border...they have 10 times + the population  to start with & quite a bit different regions to serve compared to ours.

One of my only 'beefs' I have is the freight charges they slam the Canadian consumer with compared to the U.S. when buying brand new $1,525 here in Canada Vs. $695 for the American's...and our dollar is almost at parity!     That's why I either purchase either used or a 'demo', never brand spanking new.

   

[sailor723]

I have to agree about the freight and PDI charges here in Canada. I really think it's just a blatant cash grab by the manufacturers.The fact that I'm paying 2-300% of what people a few miles away are being charged really irks me. When it comes down to it why have these add-ons at all?  When you go into Futureshop you don't see refrigerators  or flat screen TV's offered at "$ xxx (+ frt and PDI)" 

[johngenx]

SoC has also now given dealers a $395 documentation fee.  This instead of raising the PDI.  So, it's essentially over $1900 now.

[Ex-airbalancer]

I have to agree about the freight and PDI charges here in Canada. I really think it's just a blatant cash grab by the manufacturers.The fact that I'm paying 2-300% of what people a few miles away are being charged really irks me. When it comes down to it why have these add-ons at all?  When you go into Futureshop you don't see refrigerators  or flat screen TV's offered at "$ xxx (+ frt and PDI)" 

Do you want to pay the same price for medical?

Look every pays price for freight across Canada, get over it

[Cam]

Don't like the way Subaru treats you in Canada?  Vote with your wallet and buy one in the States.

[sailor723]

I have to agree about the freight and PDI charges here in Canada. I really think it's just a blatant cash grab by the manufacturers.The fact that I'm paying 2-300% of what people a few miles away are being charged really irks me. When it comes down to it why have these add-ons at all?  When you go into Futureshop you don't see refrigerators  or flat screen TV's offered at "$ xxx (+ frt and PDI)" 

Do you want to pay the same price for medical?

I'd be happy to. At least then I'd just be paying for my own family and not for them PLUS a bunch of people i don't even know!

Look every pays price for freight across Canada, get over it

So, just because everyone gets ripped off equally that makes it OK?

 

[sailor723]

Don't like the way Subaru treats you in Canada?  Vote with your wallet and buy one in the States.

I already did (twice)