Topic: First Drive: 2011 Subaru Forester

[johngenx]

As most people in Canada know right now, we can get some serious winter driving conditions.  My cul-de-sac is now nearly blocked with stuck vehicles.  But, I drive my Forester with impunity.  My Blizzaks kick ass in snow and the Subaru AWD allows me to just mat the pedal and go.  The CR-V, RAV-4 and other slip-grip systems work while pulling away from a light, but on the move, in corners and other work, you don't have real AWD to depend on.

Subaru has high production costs compared to Honda and Toyota.  They have been small for some time, and just haven't been able to catch up in that regard.  So, if they want to keep their retail prices competitive (and the Forester sure is compared to the CRV and RAV) they need to scrimp in some areas.  Give me the four speed AT (which is a proven unit), keep the CVT out, keep giving me the best AWD system and keep the price in line.

To me, this is not a sporting machine that needs some thirty-two speed exotic DSG.  It's a utility vehicle that I rely on to haul me, my partners, and our gear to difficult trailheads and then get us home again.  Late last winter we left her parked in a remote area and two meters of snow fell in the time we were gone.  The road back to the highway was steep and uphill.  Even other CUVs were having a lot of trouble getting out of the parking area, but my group hopped in my Forester and with snow to the grill, headed home without a problem.  Us, an 09 Forester and a snow-tire shod Wrangler Rubicon waved bye-bye to a RAV-4 and some others. One of my climbing partners bought a Forester when we got home.

In so many ways, my old 01 is a POS.  The interior is low rent and rattles abound now.  The refinement factor better than a Jeep Wrangler, but otherwise, sucks compared to many in the segment.  The fuel economy is just barely acceptable for the size and weight of the vehicle.  But, when it's needed, this thing takes on any road (or barely road) that I've headed down, and kicked ass.

[rrocket]

As most people in Canada know right now, we can get some serious winter driving conditions.  My cul-de-sac is now nearly blocked with stuck vehicles.  But, I drive my Forester with impunity.  My Blizzaks kick ass in snow and the Subaru AWD allows me to just mat the pedal and go.  The CR-V, RAV-4 and other slip-grip systems work while pulling away from a light, but on the move, in corners and other work, you don't have real AWD to depend on.

I agree the Subaru system is superior.  But IIRC the newer RAV4 while slip and grip in auto mode has a mode that locks it into AWD.  And presumably in the conditions you describe, one would have it locked in AWD mode.

[Dante]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the AWD in the current Forester w/ AT is electronically controlled and FWD biased. In normal driving conditions most of the power goes to the front (90% or more). When slip is detected it sends more power to the rear up to 50%.  It is no longer that different than many other modern AWD sytems in compact SUVs.

[rrocket]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the AWD in the current Forester w/ AT is electronically controlled and FWD biased. In normal driving conditions most of the power goes to the front (90% or more). When slip is detected it sends more power to the rear up to 50%.  It is no longer that different than many other modern AWD sytems in compact SUVs.

I know the AWD system in the auto and manual differ...but not sure in which ways.

Does this explain somewhat better??  Though it is a Subaru video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OzK-oRPCbs

[Dante]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know, the AWD in the current Forester w/ AT is electronically controlled and FWD biased. In normal driving conditions most of the power goes to the front (90% or more). When slip is detected it sends more power to the rear up to 50%.  It is no longer that different than many other modern AWD sytems in compact SUVs.

I know the AWD system in the auto and manual differ...but not sure in which ways.

Few years back I followed a very long and heated discussion on how the new then Forester AWD system works (with automatic). One of the Subaru guys (and Edmunds blogger) got some info straight from Subaru and while the Subaru rep (engineering IIRC) did not give out the percentages for front/rear distribution in normal driving conditions, he suggested it is 90% or even more. I recall for sure the max rear was 50%.

[Spheric]

Article Quote: "Manual transmission models are also equipped with “hill holder” technology that prevents the vehicle from rolling back on an incline".

^ ^ ^

That's not much fun then ?!  I enjoy playing with the clutch and see-sawing on a steep incline.... 

You mean ruining your clutch? lol

Clutches can be easily replaced.....self-expression is priceless. Life is short - enjoy it. 

[johngenx]

The newest AT system is 60/40 F/R and varies depending on the need.  The older 90/10 system is NOT a slip/grip system, as the 90/10 condition was only during very light throttle cruising.  Under ANY other conditions, much more torque is directed rear-ward.  How does it work...?

Under normal, dry pavement operation torque split is about 90% front and 10% rear. This distribution helps to compensate for the car’s weight distribution and resultant smaller effective rolling diameter of the front tires. As weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle, (i.e., under acceleration), the TCU shifts the torque split more toward the rear wheels. Under hard braking, torque is directed forward. Torque distribution is changed based upon how the vehicle is being driven. Throttle position, gearshift lever position, current gear and other factors combine to influence the TCU and it, in turn, selects a software map that determines how aggressively torque split will be adjusted.

Two speed sensors are used by the TCU to detect wheel slippage. One sensor monitors the front axle set, the other the rear axle set. Pre-programmed variables help the TCU differentiate between slipping wheels and normal wheel speed differentials as what occurs when cornering. A speed differential (front-to-rear) of up to 20% signals the TCU that the vehicle is cornering and torque is distributed to the front wheels to help increase traction during the turn. Anything above 20%, however, indicates to the TCU that wheel slippage is occurring and torque is then distributed to the rear wheels.

Another feature of the all-wheel drive system is its interaction with the anti-lock brake system. When ABS is engaged, the transmission selects third gear, reducing the unpredictability of engine braking and, thus, reducing the possibility of wheel lock-up. But all four wheels are still connected to the engine through the AWD system and are brought back up to overall vehicle speed quicker and can, therefore, be controlled again sooner. In a two-wheel drive system if the locking wheel isn’t a drive wheel, it can only be brought back up to overall wheel speed by whatever traction exists between it and the road.

I've driven my own "90/10" system back to back with slip/grip systems, and there is NO comparison.  The Subaru system has none of the lag, works in all speed situations, and is working hard during cornering, not just if the front wheels are spinning.  People that think Subaru has offered anything even close to a slip/grip are CR-V owners trying to convince themselves that Subaru sold out too...    

[johngenx]

Just an addition.  With the older Scoob systems, the trick to driving them is to push the throttle.  The TCU engages the rear axle aggressively under any acceleration.  So, if traction is poor (snow, ice, etc) don't back off.  Keep your foot in it and let the system work, and work it does.  Mine is also equipped with rear LSD, and controlled four wheel drifts are the norm...   

[Sir Osis of Liver]

When we bought the Outback, the salesman explained the variable f/r torque loading of the automatic. IIRC, it was as John described.
I do remember that the torque split with the manual is fixed at 50/50. Along with the limited slip and snow tires, it's pretty darned good in deep snow.

Of course, that hasn't stopped Lady Osis high centring it twice since we moved here.

[rrocket]

Of course, that hasn't stopped Lady Osis high centring it twice since we moved here.

Driver error?

[johngenx]

Of course, that hasn't stopped Lady Osis high centring it twice since we moved here.

Really?  Ouch.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Of course, that hasn't stopped Lady Osis high centring it twice since we moved here.

Driver error?

She seems to equate AWD with invincibility. Fortunately she has a shovel with her or borrowed one.

To be fair, they really, really have no clue how to plow the streets here. Snow on our street was right up to the rockers on the Outback. A bunch of cars were stuck on it. She got stuck trying to go over the berm left by a plow on an adjacent street.

[greengs]

I borrow my wife's 09 Forester and other than the 2-3 shift dead spot while going WOT there is nothing wrong with the 4sp auto.  In that car it works.  I agree in the turbo it should be 5 or 6. 

Toyota still uses the 4sp auto in their 4 cylinder Rav4 and they seem to do quite well with that setup..

[jaari]

Love Subaru's but don't trust them because of well known issues such as the  head gasket's likeing to go around the 100,000 km mark.
Listened to a girl take off in her Forrester from Kangas Sauna, it made a horrible engine rattle like it had no oil, then went away...

[Trainman]

When we bought the Outback, the salesman explained the variable f/r torque loading of the automatic. IIRC, it was as John described.
I do remember that the torque split with the manual is fixed at 50/50. Along with the limited slip and snow tires, it's pretty darned good in deep snow.

Of course, that hasn't stopped Lady Osis high centring it twice since we moved here.

The torque split on the current generation of Forester is 60/40 for the AT, variable up to 50/50 and 50/50 with the MT.  LSD is not available but the other traction aids make up for it.  There are some very good videos on the 'net comparing the old Forester setup with LSD but no electronic traction aids and the new and the new outdo's the old hands down.

I have to agree with John on his assessment of what a Forester is.  I too use mine to get to tough spots and am not expecting any kind of sports handling.  And just look at all the aftermarket support for such things as skid plates, lift kits, engine management, etc.  Is there such a wide range for its competitors?

As for the new engine, sure it has the same HP/torque and fuel usage but what I have heard is that the HP and torque is available over a wider band, and the peak is at lower RPM's, making it a better all around motor.  But I will need to drive one to see if it is really that much better.  I also hope the new design finally put the HG issue to bed.  Funny the more stressed Turbo motor does not have these issues but it is a totally different motor (open deck vs closed deck for one) so maybe they took what they learned with the Turbo and put that into the NA.

So far, for the same kms (66,000 on the odo now), the Forester has been more reliable than the Sienna with no warranty work to date (knock on wood) while the Sienna has needed a new rad plus some other minor stuff.

Would I buy mine again?  Yes.

[Lexusfreak]

The newest AT system is 60/40 F/R and varies depending on the need.  The older 90/10 system is NOT a slip/grip system, as the 90/10 condition was only during very light throttle cruising.  Under ANY other conditions, much more torque is directed rear-ward.  How does it work...?

Under normal, dry pavement operation torque split is about 90% front and 10% rear. This distribution helps to compensate for the car’s weight distribution and resultant smaller effective rolling diameter of the front tires. As weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle, (i.e., under acceleration), the TCU shifts the torque split more toward the rear wheels. Under hard braking, torque is directed forward. Torque distribution is changed based upon how the vehicle is being driven. Throttle position, gearshift lever position, current gear and other factors combine to influence the TCU and it, in turn, selects a software map that determines how aggressively torque split will be adjusted.

Two speed sensors are used by the TCU to detect wheel slippage. One sensor monitors the front axle set, the other the rear axle set. Pre-programmed variables help the TCU differentiate between slipping wheels and normal wheel speed differentials as what occurs when cornering. A speed differential (front-to-rear) of up to 20% signals the TCU that the vehicle is cornering and torque is distributed to the front wheels to help increase traction during the turn. Anything above 20%, however, indicates to the TCU that wheel slippage is occurring and torque is then distributed to the rear wheels.

Another feature of the all-wheel drive system is its interaction with the anti-lock brake system. When ABS is engaged, the transmission selects third gear, reducing the unpredictability of engine braking and, thus, reducing the possibility of wheel lock-up. But all four wheels are still connected to the engine through the AWD system and are brought back up to overall vehicle speed quicker and can, therefore, be controlled again sooner. In a two-wheel drive system if the locking wheel isn’t a drive wheel, it can only be brought back up to overall wheel speed by whatever traction exists between it and the road.

I've driven my own "90/10" system back to back with slip/grip systems, and there is NO comparison.  The Subaru system has none of the lag, works in all speed situations, and is working hard during cornering, not just if the front wheels are spinning.  People that think Subaru has offered anything even close to a slip/grip are CR-V owners trying to convince themselves that Subaru sold out too...    

Very well said John!   

[Lexusfreak]

I still would have wished (with all this talk about CVT's & Subaru not bringing the diesel to North America) that they would have at least put their proven 5 speed auto with the updated N/A engine (the CVT would not fit, but would the 5 speed auto???)...but some apparently argue that would place it too close to the redesigned Outback... 

Again, www.cars101.com is a WEALTH of Subi info for those interested.

And another interesting read here...

  http://www.autoblog.com/2010/12/10/2011-subaru-forester-quick-spin-review-road-test/


   

[Shnak]

As most people in Canada know right now, we can get some serious winter driving conditions.  My cul-de-sac is now nearly blocked with stuck vehicles.  But, I drive my Forester with impunity.  My Blizzaks kick ass in snow and the Subaru AWD allows me to just mat the pedal and go.  The CR-V, RAV-4 and other slip-grip systems work while pulling away from a light, but on the move, in corners and other work, you don't have real AWD to depend on.

I agree the Subaru system is superior.  But IIRC the newer RAV4 while slip and grip in auto mode has a mode that locks it into AWD.  And presumably in the conditions you describe, one would have it locked in AWD mode.

Same with our Sportage... I can lock it up to 50kph. I've been happy with its AWD system and only once got stuck in over 4 years of ownership when I tried to get out of my own driveway in reverse over at least 2ft of pretty heavy snow. The whole vehicle was jacked up on snow and none of the wheels were touching the ground... Chalk that one up to a stupid driver, not the AWD system... 

[dkaz]

Sorry if I'm missing a point here but you automatic drivers aren't rowing any gears, what difference does it make if you have 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 or 8 or whatever gears? All you have to do is mash on the gas pedal and let the car do everything for you. I find automatic gear changes unnerving at times, the less the car has to do it the better IMO. Plus never mind they are more expensive to begin with (you will see the cost of the automatic transmission since the standard transmission is well, standard), they will also be more expensive to fix when (not if, when) they do need repairs.

[Dante]

Under normal, dry pavement operation torque split is about 90% front and 10% rear. This distribution helps to compensate for the car’s weight distribution and resultant smaller effective rolling diameter of the front tires. As weight transfers to the rear of the vehicle, (i.e., under acceleration), the TCU shifts the torque split more toward the rear wheels. Under hard braking, torque is directed forward. Torque distribution is changed based upon how the vehicle is being driven. Throttle position, gearshift lever position, current gear and other factors combine to influence the TCU and it, in turn, selects a software map that determines how aggressively torque split will be adjusted.

This is exactly how Mitsu describes the AWD used in the Outlander, including the integration of the ABS and TC.