Topic: New Honda models are slow sellers... duh?

[Julie]

What would I do? Glad you asked.

-New NSX that looks recognizably like the old NSX. Mid engine, RWD, V6 naturally aspirated. 325hp / 270 torque. Make it light with some fancy aero tricks. Park one in the showroom.
-Bring back and update the S2K while you're at it. Some slightly more aggressive styling would be good.
-Drop the Crosstour. Add Accord Wagon and give it enough rear rake to look almost like an A4 Avant, which is to say not your mothers Volvo 850.
-Why does the CR-Z exist again? Ditto Element and Ridgeline?
-For the love of god please update the CR-V.
-The Insight needs to be more car. More Prius. More expensive.
-Push the hybrid Civic somehow.
-Acura tooth grill banished forever. TL needs restyling.
-TSX given the drivetrain from the RDX (turbo + SHAWD).
-Let the current RL die a peaceful, quiet death. Reintroduce it in a few years but make it worthwhile (read: bigger and 400hp).

With the exception of the Element (which is actually awesome due to its class-exclusive wipe-clean interior and suicide doors), I couldn't agree more.  Honda: please hire this man.  He knows what he's talking about and he speaks the truth.

Those are good ideas, I agree.  I have also lost interest in the current Honda/Acura line-up, although I've been a long-time Honda fan.  Only vehicle that interests us at the moment is the MDX.

I was drawn to Hondas because they could be 'fun to drive', and had that reputation for reliability.  Also, I loved the styling of some of their cars, even though they weren't flashy and were simple (I still smile when I see my TSX parked as I'm coming up to my driveway).  In addition, Acuras were often technologically advanced (my TSX is still, 4 years later, pretty up-to-date/not bad in that sense), but tech gizmos are not longer exclusive to premium or luxury cars, and that really isn't a big factor to me. 

But now their cars (generally speaking) don't look very good, even ugly, and have lost some of their sportiness.  The competition has also caught up.  As Mitlov said, they need to find a focus, and capitalize on their strengths, while remaining well-rounded enough in terms of general attributes.  They are not standing out enough.  Except for some real ugly designs.  Fire their design heads btw.

[rrocket]

But now their cars (generally speaking) don't look very good, even ugly, and have lost some of their sportiness.  The competition has also caught up.  As Mitlov said, they need to find a focus, and capitalize on their strengths, while remaining well-rounded enough in terms of general attributes.  They are not standing out enough.  Except for some real ugly designs.  Fire their design heads btw.

But that's also happening to BMW now, isn't it?

[Julie]

But now their cars (generally speaking) don't look very good, even ugly, and have lost some of their sportiness.  The competition has also caught up.  As Mitlov said, they need to find a focus, and capitalize on their strengths, while remaining well-rounded enough in terms of general attributes.  They are not standing out enough.  Except for some real ugly designs.  Fire their design heads btw.

But that's also happening to BMW now, isn't it?

Not as much as Honda.  I like the 3 series styling more than the that of Honda's bread and better Accord for instance.  I also like the new X3 styling more than the MDX's , especially with respect to the interior (too many buttons in the MDX).  They've still got sportiness in the 1-series, 3-series, M models, etc.

[rrocket]

But now their cars (generally speaking) don't look very good, even ugly, and have lost some of their sportiness.  The competition has also caught up.  As Mitlov said, they need to find a focus, and capitalize on their strengths, while remaining well-rounded enough in terms of general attributes.  They are not standing out enough.  Except for some real ugly designs.  Fire their design heads btw.

But that's also happening to BMW now, isn't it?

Not as much as Honda.  I like the 3 series styling more than the that of Honda's bread and better Accord for instance.  I also like the new X3 styling more than the MDX's , especially with respect to the interior (too many buttons in the MDX).  They've still got sportiness in the 1-series, 3-series, M models, etc.

Sorry..my point was unclear.  I'm not saying that the softening or edgier styling is a terrible thing.  Look at BMW.  That's what I was trying to say.

[Seafoam]

Cab forward design? This is what chrysler did in the early to mid nineties. Intrepid ,cirrus and stratus. Maybe they were ahead of their time.

Never said Honda invented cab-forward design, which has been around since before the Honda Motor Company was formed (it really came about in train design in the early 20th century).  Cab forward has faded in and out of fashion for decades.  Honda just executed the concept very well with the 2006+ Civic, and I think they should expand on the idea.

Just a comment really. Neat how this design had resurfaced. In the intrepids case it was a larger car but with the design and the positioning of the wheels it actually handled like a much smaller vehicle.

[Julie]

But now their cars (generally speaking) don't look very good, even ugly, and have lost some of their sportiness.  The competition has also caught up.  As Mitlov said, they need to find a focus, and capitalize on their strengths, while remaining well-rounded enough in terms of general attributes.  They are not standing out enough.  Except for some real ugly designs.  Fire their design heads btw.

But that's also happening to BMW now, isn't it?

Not as much as Honda.  I like the 3 series styling more than the that of Honda's bread and better Accord for instance.  I also like the new X3 styling more than the MDX's , especially with respect to the interior (too many buttons in the MDX).  They've still got sportiness in the 1-series, 3-series, M models, etc.

Sorry..my point was unclear.  I'm not saying that the softening or edgier styling is a terrible thing.  Look at BMW.  That's what I was trying to say.

Yeah, it has to be done right though.  But yeah, those Bangle days were something.  BMW had to scale back, and now their designs are much more acceptable to mainstream buyers.  Honda still has time to reverse the trend...

[wing]

Honda should take the new f1 engines and insert into crz.  750hp 1.6L 4 cylinder ah perfect for the street.

[The Mighty Duck]

I agree with the sentiment that, in the grand scheme of things, the slow sales of Honda's niche products don't really matter. It's the sales of their bread-and-butter lineup that are important... and I believe the Civic is still selling well despite being a 5 year old design, the Fit is still at or near the top of its class (the Fiesta/Mazda 2 are really strong competitors and beat it in some respects, but the Fit wins in some others, so I call it a draw), and the Accord is doing all right (I think?).

What's more interesting, imo, is where the next generation of these cars go. That Honda pulled the next-gen Civic because it was too big/too floaty/too inefficient concerns me, but it also leads me to believe they're aware of their problems and acting upon them...

So, I'll wait and see if the next-gen Civic and Fit are any good. If they're not, then Honda might well have lost its way. But I'm not too worried... yet.

(And FYI, mmret, have you actually driven a Ridgeline? IMO it's a wonderful light truck - the design is genius, and pure Honda. The only problem with it, imo, is the price. If they can keep it as good as it is but make it cheaper, I think you'd see a lot more of them).

[mmret]

(And FYI, mmret, have you actually driven a Ridgeline? IMO it's a wonderful light truck - the design is genius, and pure Honda. The only problem with it, imo, is the price. If they can keep it as good as it is but make it cheaper, I think you'd see a lot more of them).

You are as always entitled to your opinion.

It remains a niche product. In my Utopian world it does not exist.

Honda should take the new f1 engines and insert into crz.  750hp 1.6L 4 cylinder ah perfect for the street.

What redline on that?

[rrocket]

What redline on that?

They want them limited to 10,000 RPM

[mmret]

What redline on that?

They want them limited to 10,000 RPM

So its 750hp with the limiter? Isn't that a ridiculously gigantic amount of torque from a 1.6, or is it turbo'd?

[rrocket]

What redline on that?

They want them limited to 10,000 RPM

So its 750hp with the limiter? Isn't that a ridiculously gigantic amount of torque from a 1.6, or is it turbo'd?

Turbo, baby!!

[mmret]

What redline on that?

They want them limited to 10,000 RPM

So its 750hp with the limiter? Isn't that a ridiculously gigantic amount of torque from a 1.6, or is it turbo'd?

Turbo, baby!!

750hp out of a 1.6 via turbocharging reminds me of foie gras, or the way farm chickens are raised maybe.

[rrocket]

Not overly impressive for a 1.6 and F1 tech.  Bisimoto yanked 550HP+ from the CR-Zs 1.5 liter....

[G0dspd]

"At least their bread and butter/meat and potatoes models are solid and selling well."  - General Consensus

Maybe it's just me but that's pretty sad coming from a brand like Honda.  Their cars were engineered like nobody else and they used to take pride in what made them different.  Honda gave the Civics a double-wishbone front suspensions and they made their 4-cylinders their masterpiece with a "We don't need no stinkin' V6" attitude.  Even if some of the heavier models couldn't be competitive without a V6, they always worked on new technologies to make their smaller engines more powerful and it always paid off.

These days, it seems like Honda is ran by bean counters and appliance lovers.  The car guys who made the brand what it was are all gone (are they?).  The most important models are still selling well but is it all they have going for them?  Acura is basically in the same boat.  They cancelled (RSX/NSX) and butchered (TSX/TL) some of the cars (calling cards) that put them on the map.  Sure they're still getting good numbers but how long will it last if they stay the present course.  They've been relying on existing products to stay ahead but the competition is quickly raising the stakes and they learned a few new tricks.

A few more things ...
- They introduced the first hybrid in NA but they can do better than that IMA booster?
- What ever happened to that whole diesels for NA thing?
- Hyundai and Chevy have a 6-spd and the Germans have a 8-spd.  What's up with your 5-spd?
- Direct injection ... look it up!
- Fuel economy ... the Koreans are laughing at you.
- Pulling the plug on vehicles at the 11th hour is a bad habit.

[rrocket]

Germans have a 8-spd. 

C'mon.  Lexus was first with the 8 speed!!   

[G0dspd]

Germans have a 8-spd. 

C'mon.  Lexus was first with the 8 speed!!  

Sorry. 

- Hyundai and Chevy have a 6-spd. Lexus and those copycat Germans have a 8-spd.  What's up with your 5-spd?

[rrocket]

Germans have a 8-spd. 

C'mon.  Lexus was first with the 8 speed!!  

Sorry. 

- Hyundai and Chevy have a 6-spd. Lexus and those copycat Germans have a 8-spd.  What's up with your 5-spd?

 

[CanuckS2K]

I agree with a number of comments here that Honda/Acura has complelely lost it's way in the last couple of years.  If I was in the market for any vehicle that Honda currently participates in, I'd really be only interested in their dated Civic....which IMHO looks the best in their lineup.  I owned a 1990 Prelude 4WS and currently own an 05 S2000, so I have nothing against Honda whatsoever.  But their current lineup however does not interest me in the least.......and to add to that, their current designs are no more appealing than an STD.  Even though my views on Honda's styling are 100% subjective, it certainly seems like the majority of people (at least on car forums are concrerned) have similiar views.  I really hope they turn themselves around though as they are capable of building some damn nice cars.

Btw, please bring back a next gen Prelude.   

[Mitlov]

Digital instruments aside, I like Mitlov's suggestions for the Accord. 

Jaeger

Regrettably, don't hold your breath.  As of November 2010, the current Accord is the second-best-selling car in the United States and not that far away from first place (source).  I think for long-term sustainability, they need to make drastic changes for the next generation, but I suspect Honda's going to say "what we're doing now is working right now, and so we're not going to do anything drastic."  I think it's better to make drastic changes before a big fall instead of after, but that's just my opinion.