Topic: New Honda models are slow sellers... duh?

[Shnak]

You seem to think that 4-cylinders are all that Honda sells... what about all their vehicles with V6 engines?

And I honestly doubt people who buy a CR-V care about the free-revving nature of the engine... they want smooth and comfortable. Same can be said about the Accord.

[Mitlov]

You seem to think that 4-cylinders are all that Honda sells... what about all their vehicles with V6 engines?

I focused on the four-cylinders because that's the core of what made Honda what it is today.  BMW makes a lot more than just straight-sixes, but they've been known best for their straight sixes.  Dodge makes a lot more than just Hemi V8s (from the SRT4 to the SRT10 to the new Pentastar V6), but the Hemi V8 defines the brand.  Likewise, refined, smooth, eagerly-revving inline-fours have defined Honda, though it's not all that they make.

As for their V6s, whoever said you can't make a smooth, refined, eagerly-revving V6 with the same virtues (and same relatively low torque at idle) that Honda's inline-fours are known for?  Honda certainly could meet my litmus test with a V6 for the segments where that's expected.

All TLs with SH-AWD are powered by Honda's 3.7-liter V6 delivering 305 horsepower at 6,200 rpm and 273 pound-feet of torque at 5,000 rpm. While the automatic version is still saddled with just five forward gears, the manual version gets a sixth cog. Pressing the start button fires the V6 into a smooth, steady idle with the soundtrack you'd expect of a high-tech performance engine. The stop and go pedals are well-placed for easy heel-and-toe downshifts, and the newly added left pedal has a smooth, predictable take-up that engages mid-travel and never feels grabby.

Honda and Acura's manual gearboxes are known for their smooth, slick mechanisms and short throws, and the TL doesn't disappoint. Rowing the lever through its gates, there are no hangups or notches, it simply glides from gear to gear like the precise piece of machinery it is. Let out the clutch and the TL pulls away with nary a lurch, even during hurried launches on dry pavement. The engine's note is more mechanical precision than brutish wail, evolving into a howl as it winds to its 6,700 rpm redline.

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/02/15/2010-acura-tl-sh-awd-6mt-review/

And that's not even mentioning the NSX's first engine, the 3.0L V6, with 270 hp, 210 lb-ft, and a 8000 RPM redline.  That's the ideal taken to an extreme you wouldn't want in an Accord, but I think it proves the point that there's nothing contradictory with having a V6 that is smooth and loves to rev instead of pulling stumps right off idle.

And I honestly doubt people who buy a CR-V care about the free-revving nature of the engine... they want smooth and comfortable. Same can be said about the Accord.

There's nothing contradictory about "smooth" and "comfortable" and "free-revving."  In fact, Honda engines typically are both.  What Honda engines typically AREN'T is "grunty" or "stump-pulling."  And you most certainly can tune a refined, free-revving engine to give a smooth riding experience, as Honda has done for decades. 

[footlong58]

You seem to think that 4-cylinders are all that Honda sells... what about all their vehicles with V6 engines?

And I honestly doubt people who buy a CR-V care about the free-revving nature of the engine... they want smooth and comfortable. Same can be said about the Accord.

Alright, makes sense, but what you're suggesting and what Honda is doing now is clearly not working...

For years Honda sold a ton of cars that people really liked with the formula: Honda makes amazing engines, and also just happens to make great cars around those engines.  That worked for Honda.  Now that they are going for the borning Toyota crowd, they've seemed to loose their way...  You'd think that hey, its successful for Toyota, it should be for Honda, but that isn't the case...

The CRZ is close.  Neat little car, fun to drive, but they went all Toyota on it with the hybrid.  If they would have pumped another grand into the 1.5L engine, they could have done some amazing things and still get the performance and fuel econ... That would have been the Honda way of past...

[Mitlov]

As an example of what I would like to see Honda do, let me talk about the Accord.  As it is currently, it's huge, and it's the softest and dullest Accord ever in terms of driving experience.  It's also got a traditional-and-inefficient "three box" shape, and a complicated mass of buttons inside that doesn't even face the driver.





How would I design the next generation?

(1)  Downsize.  Make it at the smaller end of midsize instead of the larger end.
(2)  Adopt a cab-forward, aerodynamic design to maximize interior space and improve fuel economy.
(3)  Add lightness.  Lightness helps agility and also fuel economy.
(4)  Tighten the suspension so that it's confident and planted without being harsh.  But banish floatiness.
(5)  Throw tradition in the trash-heap and build the interior around the driver with the "cockpit" style interior you see in the Civic and CR-Z.

In short, what I want would look like...the FCX Clarity.  Not in terms of drivetrains, but in terms of dimensions and design.


(note the size relative to the person--roomy, but not TOO big).


(Aerodynamic design will improve fuel economy; cab-forward design makes any car roomier inside).


(Simple and sensible, if nontraditional, interior).

[rrocket]

I think you'd be the minority for wanting the digital dash in the Accord.  Although the dash in the Civic is fine for me, if a bit overly spacey, most people (read: older) wouldn't want it in their family sedan.  For them, analog gauges are the way to go.  I prefer analog too.

[Jaeger]

Digital instruments aside, I like Mitlov's suggestions for the Accord. 

Jaeger

[larry]

Hey Honda remember that  1995 civic coupe   you sold me  double wish bone suspension  on all for corners  and the engine non  vteck  awsome ride  every thing about that car i loved .  Then my 2002 civic coupe  you sold me well is was  down hill  for me

reliable car but it lost the fun and spirit of the 1995 civic in every way

then in 2010 i looked at honda again then bought a toyota

Honda wake up do you want to be  like the big three one day

[Mitlov]

I think you'd be the minority for wanting the digital dash in the Accord.  Although the dash in the Civic is fine for me, if a bit overly spacey, most people (read: older) wouldn't want it in their family sedan.  For them, analog gauges are the way to go.  I prefer analog too.

One of the partners in my firm used to have a DeVille.  It had a digital speedometer (in addition to the gauge, admittedly, not as a replacement for the gauge).  I believe the Crown Victoria had one too.  And those two are the definition of old-people cars.  Maybe Honda could have a traditional speedometer-and-tachometer next to each other but also have the digital gauge up near the windscreen?  Should satisfy everyone.

Besides, you could pitch it as "easier for aging eyes to read"    Or a more realistic sales pitch for older folks--"easier, more legible, and safer."

[rrocket]

Besides, you could pitch it as "easier for aging eyes to read"    Or a more realistic sales pitch for older folks--"easier, more legible, and safer."

I know on the Crown Vic, it was an option (my dad had one).  But mostly people tend not to like them however well done they are.  The one in my Insight didn't bother me in the least.  But yet I still prefer the crisp, attractive gauges in my IS350.

[Ice]

Great little conversation starter

As I said before I really like Honda. I think they have done a great job on some of their vehicles. My parents own a the current gen Accord (a couple of years old now) and the current gen CR-V with the updated engine (only a few months old). Both are superb vehicles... and with my parents having come from 10 and 14 year old Chryslers, they are taking a huge step forward.

I actually drove the Accord for a year before I got my car. My mom wanted a larger vehicle and the Accord is actually the smallest she's ever driven. So it was the right size as far as she was concerned and I do have to say that it's very comfortable inside. The dash never put her off and she's not a button person so for all of the complaints about that... my real world experience for my parents is that the buttons are fine (I've never had a problem but I AM a button person ).  The CR-V has been much the same so far. Solid vehicle and does what it's needed to.

And the higher revving engines aren't really a problem here either. They don't have a ton of torque but my parents prefer a smooth driving experience anyways. So the slightly slower onset of power is actually a bonus feature for them. When I put my foot down I'm rarely left feeling like either is under powered... and at 180 and 190hp for the I4s it's good. Not super fast... but practically good. My parents hate the near instant torque that my Corolla XRS engine has... it's a bit jumpy off the line and it pulls hard from 1500rpm and up.

As for what I'd do...Bread and butter are fine but make sure the designs are good, if functional. Bring back a Civic hatch for goodness sake, make the NSX halo car, ditch the Crosstour and give us a stylish wagony thing... even if it's like a Venza. Make the Insight a REAL fuel miser and use some new hybrid technology.

[Seafoam]

 Cab forward design? This is what chrysler did in the early to mid nineties. Intrepid ,cirrus and stratus. Maybe they were ahead of their time.

[Mitlov]

Cab forward design? This is what chrysler did in the early to mid nineties. Intrepid ,cirrus and stratus. Maybe they were ahead of their time.

Never said Honda invented cab-forward design, which has been around since before the Honda Motor Company was formed (it really came about in train design in the early 20th century).  Cab forward has faded in and out of fashion for decades.  Honda just executed the concept very well with the 2006+ Civic, and I think they should expand on the idea.

[Frontier1]

I won't bash them, but when I drive by a Honda dealership it's like driving by an open field, nothing to see here for me.

[CatsEye68]

Honda/Acura are in a very delicate position right now, sort of where Toyota was about 3 years ago, still doing well living off their reputation, but with vehicles that are no longer class-leaders from an overall point of view. Unlike the bland Toyota, Honda's problem has been the opposite, with a series of unattractive, edgy designs like the Crosstour, Accord, and just about all the Acura beak-nose vehicles. Will we start to see double-digit month over month sales declines like Toyota?

I suspect that unless they start to have massive quality problems and bad press like Toyota, probably not. Honda makes a good vehicle and really has three problems, all easily fixed: styling, comfort/quiet, and value. Styling could be fixed in most cases in a couple of years if they find the right people to do it. The Honda ride has always been a little firmer and sportier than most and I think they should retain that, but their problems with road/tire, engine, and suspension noise need to be addressed with some better sound deadening. Easy fix. Value is simply a stroke of the pen. They need to get the message out to their arrogant dealers that they need to compete and not act like it is still 1990 when they could demand a premium over list price and require a nonrefundable deposit. Riding in a new Accord recently, I could not believe how much it cost for what it delivered. It was generally unimpressive (I liked my recent rental Altima far more) and when the pricetag was factored in, the only thing that could have sold it was reputation.

If Honda management wises up, they'll be just fine.
 

[rrocket]

I won't bash them, but when I drive by a Honda dealership it's like driving by an open field, nothing to see here for me.

No surprise given you drive on of the quirkiest looking cars currently available..

[Frontier1]

I won't bash them, but when I drive by a Honda dealership it's like driving by an open field, nothing to see here for me.

No surprise given you drive on of the quirkiest looking cars currently available..

Won't deny that, and love it!  When I saw the Juke on the lot, it caught my eye for sure.  I don't want to be seen driving a toaster, that's me.  I've always distrust a Honda transmission. They make great snowblowers

[mmret]

Honda's meat and potatoes are still very solid cars (Accord, Civic, Fit, Odyssey), and Acura has one particularly important segment well covered (RDX / MDX, which do look the best with that grille).

Yes they've had some issues but most of them are either styling issues or niche cars. Styling issues can be fixed...but it requires the willpower. As for niche cars...they've always had a bit of a tendency towards that...

The new Accord, while rather bloated for most on this board, probably works really, really well for its intended audience.

The 5 speed auto is outdated but 99% of people don't care. And nobody ever complained about the manuals.

Engines are still very solid and could probably run forever.

New TSX was a real letdown, although they did facelift the grille...


What would I do? Glad you asked.

-New NSX that looks recognizably like the old NSX. Mid engine, RWD, V6 naturally aspirated. 325hp / 270 torque. Make it light with some fancy aero tricks. Park one in the showroom.
-Bring back and update the S2K while you're at it. Some slightly more aggressive styling would be good.
-Drop the Crosstour. Add Accord Wagon and give it enough rear rake to look almost like an A4 Avant, which is to say not your mothers Volvo 850.
-Why does the CR-Z exist again? Ditto Element and Ridgeline?
-For the love of god please update the CR-V.
-The Insight needs to be more car. More Prius. More expensive.
-Push the hybrid Civic somehow.
-Acura tooth grill banished forever. TL needs restyling.
-TSX given the drivetrain from the RDX (turbo + SHAWD).
-Let the current RL die a peaceful, quiet death. Reintroduce it in a few years but make it worthwhile (read: bigger and 400hp).

[bridgecity]

Honda makes a good vehicle and really has three problems, all easily fixed: styling, comfort/quiet, and value.  

Fair points.  Styling is subjective, however most would agree the styling has gone downhill.  I agree with the "quiet", all three Hondas I've owned had more road noise than you're average vehicle, but I've also found them to be comfortable.

Not so sure about the value point.  If you look at MSRPs, I think Hondas are comparable to the competition.  Traditionally, Honda hasn't offered large incentives because they haven't had to in order to move stock.  I've noticed that lately larger incentives have been offered.

[Shnak]

I won't bash them, but when I drive by a Honda dealership it's like driving by an open field, nothing to see here for me.

No surprise given you drive on of the quirkiest looking cars currently available..

Won't deny that, and love it!  When I saw the Juke on the lot, it caught my eye for sure.  I don't want to be seen driving a toaster, that's me.  I've always distrust a Honda transmission. They make great snowblowers

Coming from a guy who also drives an Altima, I find that statement puzzling, to say the least... 

[Mitlov]

What would I do? Glad you asked.

-New NSX that looks recognizably like the old NSX. Mid engine, RWD, V6 naturally aspirated. 325hp / 270 torque. Make it light with some fancy aero tricks. Park one in the showroom.
-Bring back and update the S2K while you're at it. Some slightly more aggressive styling would be good.
-Drop the Crosstour. Add Accord Wagon and give it enough rear rake to look almost like an A4 Avant, which is to say not your mothers Volvo 850.
-Why does the CR-Z exist again? Ditto Element and Ridgeline?
-For the love of god please update the CR-V.
-The Insight needs to be more car. More Prius. More expensive.
-Push the hybrid Civic somehow.
-Acura tooth grill banished forever. TL needs restyling.
-TSX given the drivetrain from the RDX (turbo + SHAWD).
-Let the current RL die a peaceful, quiet death. Reintroduce it in a few years but make it worthwhile (read: bigger and 400hp).

With the exception of the Element (which is actually awesome due to its class-exclusive wipe-clean interior and suicide doors), I couldn't agree more.  Honda: please hire this man.  He knows what he's talking about and he speaks the truth.