Topic: 2011 Infiniti M37S; Day 1

[lebowski]

Don't think I've put it in this thread so here goes - Sounds like the Ford Taurus SHO would be a good compromise - AWD, superior power, a pretty nice interior in its own right and for thousands less than either the Infinity or BMW.

In the near-luxury/luxury segment prestige is typically the most significant factor; if you can afford a near$60k+ car on top of all of your other bills, MOST people tend to want to themselves and/or others that they have 'made it'.  Ford just doesn't fit that bill, SHO or not.  I have always been surprised at the SHO pricing as it is in their Lincoln branding territory.  It's kinda like the Maxima and the G37; now who wouldn't be surprised if the Maxima is discontinued shortly?  At least with the Taurus, there are other sub-models in its lineup rather than a dedicated SHO.

I hear ya though; prestige aside the SHO comes in at a good price compared to others in the same price range.  Heck I even think it out "Hyundai's" the Hyundai Equus.

I have no doubt the SHO is a very good car, even for $50k. I am skeptical, however, as to how it and the Hyundai Equus will fare in the North American luxury car marketplace, given the lack of brand cachet Ford and Hyundai have--the past sales failure of the Volkswagen Phaeton comes to mind.

[Shnak]

Don't think I've put it in this thread so here goes - Sounds like the Ford Taurus SHO would be a good compromise - AWD, superior power, a pretty nice interior in its own right and for thousands less than either the Infinity or BMW.

In the near-luxury/luxury segment prestige is typically the most significant factor; if you can afford a near$60k+ car on top of all of your other bills, MOST people tend to want to themselves and/or others that they have 'made it'.  Ford just doesn't fit that bill, SHO or not.  I have always been surprised at the SHO pricing as it is in their Lincoln branding territory.  It's kinda like the Maxima and the G37; now who wouldn't be surprised if the Maxima is discontinued shortly?  At least with the Taurus, there are other sub-models in its lineup rather than a dedicated SHO.

I hear ya though; prestige aside the SHO comes in at a good price compared to others in the same price range.  Heck I even think it out "Hyundai's" the Hyundai Equus.

I have no doubt the SHO is a very good car, even for $50k. I am skeptical, however, as to how it and the Hyundai Equus will fare in the North American luxury car marketplace, given the lack of brand cachet Ford and Hyundai have--the past sales failure of the Volkswagen Phaeton comes to mind.

The Phaeton was basically $100k, the Equus is around $60 or $70k, and SHO what, $50-$55k? And Hyundai is certainly putting very small sale targets on the Equus, because they're not dumb. They know full well their place in the market and know they were pushing it with the Genesis, and even moreso with the Equus. They'll be happy with just making a statement and win a few comparos. In 10-15 years, we'll look back at the Equus as a stepping stone for the introduction of a premium Hyundai brand.

[lebowski]

The Phaeton was basically $100k, the Equus is around $60 or $70k, and SHO what, $50-$55k? And Hyundai is certainly putting very small sale targets on the Equus, because they're not dumb. They know full well their place in the market and know they were pushing it with the Genesis, and even moreso with the Equus. They'll be happy with just making a statement and win a few comparos. In 10-15 years, we'll look back at the Equus as a stepping stone for the introduction of a premium Hyundai brand.

Fair point, the Phaeton did have a much higher price point. Actually i didn't realize they *started* at $100k--that is indeed ridiculous, regardless of how good that car was. Perhaps more relevant to the comparison would be the VW Passat W8, a car that received the same lukewarm response in the marketplace as the Phaeton as it, too, was deemed too expensive "for a Volkswagen," even though it was a very good car.

So for me it begs the question: If Hyundai wants to be how Lexus/Acura/Infiniti started 20 years ago, why didn't they launch a separate nameplate for the Equus/Genesis, as did the aforementioned brands? It seems when brands launch a premium model without a premium nameplate (e.g. VW and Mazda with their old 929), the results are not great.

[Shnak]

So for me it begs the question: If Hyundai wants to be how Lexus/Acura/Infiniti started 20 years ago, why didn't they launch a separate nameplate for the Equus/Genesis, as did the aforementioned brands? It seems when brands launch a premium model without a premium nameplate (e.g. VW and Mazda with their old 929), the results are not great.

They probably didn't feel they had the market acceptance for a premium brand just yet. And I think they're probably right.

I don't really have a problem with them introducing the Genesis and Equus as Hyundai's... after a generation or two of proving doubters wrong with these models, and showing just how much you get for your dollar with these Hyundais, coming out with a new premium brand might be better accepted by the marketplace.

And it's not like working on the Genesis and Equus is for nothing, the technology used in those vehicles trickle-down to other vehicles... engines, transmissions, etc, etc.

[lebowski]

So for me it begs the question: If Hyundai wants to be how Lexus/Acura/Infiniti started 20 years ago, why didn't they launch a separate nameplate for the Equus/Genesis, as did the aforementioned brands? It seems when brands launch a premium model without a premium nameplate (e.g. VW and Mazda with their old 929), the results are not great.

They probably didn't feel they had the market acceptance for a premium brand just yet. And I think they're probably right.

I don't really have a problem with them introducing the Genesis and Equus as Hyundai's... after a generation or two of proving doubters wrong with these models, and showing just how much you get for your dollar with these Hyundais, coming out with a new premium brand might be better accepted by the marketplace.

And it's not like working on the Genesis and Equus is for nothing, the technology used in those vehicles trickle-down to other vehicles... engines, transmissions, etc, etc.

I certainly don't have a problem with the Genesis and Equus launching as Hyundais; I am only questioning Hyundai's wisdom in doing so. Acura/Lexus/Infiniti did quite well by introducing their luxury cars under new brands, while VW and Mazda, who didn't introduce new brands (or at least didn't use the Audi badge, in VW's case), fared poorly. If the Equus and Genesis sell as well as they deserve to (given the cars' positive reviews), I will be proven wrong.

[Shnak]

I think at the time Honda, Toyota and Nissan each introduced their premium brands, their overall reputation for building quality cars was quite a bit higher than Hyundai's at the moment... For the most part, Hyundai is still being laughed at for being an inexpensive, value-first brand, especially in the states. Granted, mostly by ignorant people, but nonetheless, public perception is what it is. If they came out with a premium brand right now, I don't think it'd be regarded that well. By starting slowly and introducing premium cars under the Hyundai nameplate, they're playing it safe and limiting the risks. When the public starts realizing how great these premium Hyundai vehicles are, then it'll be time to introduce a proper premium brand.

[Roy]

There is definately a strategy behind the Equus; the Genesis I think less so as it still has viable market share competitors.  My guess is that they are trying to push the envelope with Hyundai perception in their capability to produce a vehile at this caliber so that when a prestige name is applied the platform underpinnings are already there - basically they are marketing and selling their R&D production.  Or corporate is just having some fun.  Or a little of both - just my guess though. 

Either way even from the value/bang-for-the-buck prespective, the Equus fails to impress on paper giving its price.  The SHO looks like a much better proposition even it they were the same price, literally too to my eye inside and out.  I wonder if GM will send a Buick in this direction as well?

[lebowski]

I think at the time Honda, Toyota and Nissan each introduced their premium brands, their overall reputation for building quality cars was quite a bit higher than Hyundai's at the moment... For the most part, Hyundai is still being laughed at for being an inexpensive, value-first brand, especially in the states. Granted, mostly by ignorant people, but nonetheless, public perception is what it is. If they came out with a premium brand right now, I don't think it'd be regarded that well. By starting slowly and introducing premium cars under the Hyundai nameplate, they're playing it safe and limiting the risks. When the public starts realizing how great these premium Hyundai vehicles are, then it'll be time to introduce a proper premium brand.

That does make sense. I guess Hyundai is not yet at the point, reputation-wise, that Toyota/honda/Nissan were in the late 80's when they launched their luxury brands.

[Shnak]

There is definately a strategy behind the Equus; the Genesis I think less so as it still has viable market share competitors.  My guess is that they are trying to push the envelope with Hyundai perception in their capability to produce a vehile at this caliber so that when a prestige name is applied the platform underpinnings are already there - basically they are marketing and selling their R&D production.  Or corporate is just having some fun.  Or a little of both - just my guess though. 

Either way even from the value/bang-for-the-buck prespective, the Equus fails to impress on paper giving its price.  The SHO looks like a much better proposition even it they were the same price, literally too to my eye inside and out.  I wonder if GM will send a Buick in this direction as well?

That's not what I got by reading a few pieces on the Equus. And besides, isn't it much larger than the SHO? And the SHO is much more oriented towards high-performance (despite its heavyness) while the Equus is all luxury. Not exactly straight up competitors!

[Spec5]

I seem to recall them talking about the Equus on a car show and there was talk of Hyundai launching a premium brand in the near future (ie. 1-2 years).

[aaronk]

I seem to recall them talking about the Equus on a car show and there was talk of Hyundai launching a premium brand in the near future (ie. 1-2 years).

They have to do some work to get there - even their high-end offerings carry over too much from the basic vehicles. It's not that the basic models aren't well constructed, but it just ruins the premium experience when your $55K luxo-sedan shares the same gauge pod (etc.) with a $20K hatchback.

[Shnak]

I seem to recall them talking about the Equus on a car show and there was talk of Hyundai launching a premium brand in the near future (ie. 1-2 years).

They have to do some work to get there - even their high-end offerings carry over too much from the basic vehicles. It's not that the basic models aren't well constructed, but it just ruins the premium experience when your $55K luxo-sedan shares the same gauge pod (etc.) with a $20K hatchback.

See, I prefer to see it the other way around... the $20k hatchback gets parts from the $55k luxo-sedan! 

But seriously, I'm not sure which parts your specifically talking about here...

[Roy]

That's not what I got by reading a few pieces on the Equus. And besides, isn't it much larger than the SHO? And the SHO is much more oriented towards high-performance (despite its heavyness) while the Equus is all luxury. Not exactly straight up competitors!

Exterior dimensions are very close; within an inch or two.  I think they are very much competitors; both non luxury brands playing in the luxury pricing territory.  I think right now that is a market of 2?  In my own subjective opinion I do think that the SHO looks more luxurious than the Equus, although I haven't sat in or driven the latter.  At the local auto show last year I recall sitting in the SHO and then the MKS with a buddy and oddly enough we both thought the SHO felt more luxurious than the MKS.

[wing]

Comparing SHO and Equus are NOT competitors and are NOTHING alike.

The Equus is a BMW 7-series / Audi A8 competitor and not sporty in the least.

The SHO is a sporty large sedan, just because the price is high doesn't make it a luxury car, it does not compete in that arena it competes with say an SRT8 or Charger etc.

[Roy]

Hmm point taken.  I bet though that the SHO and Equus will be cross shopped precisely b/c of the price and their name brand pedigree.  At least more so than a potential Audi/BMW/MB buyer would even consider a Hyundai.  The decision to buy one would then be based on the buyers preference for luxury or sport(ier), nicely upholstered.

Just b/c hyundai is aiming for the luxury arena, don't mean it will turn out that way.  I am thinking product design for Element vis-a-vis actual buyers.

It would be interesting to know what Equus buyers also looked at: if you are right and most where cross shopping the A8/7/S-Class, Hyundai hit a home run regardless of sales.  In my opinion buyer perception for this segment is everything.

[wing]

Hyundai expects to sell 100 Equus in Canada and only a handful of dealers will carry them.  They will not be on the lot in the showroom like a typical vehicle.  You will have to call Hyundai and have them come show you the car, it won't be crossshopped it's a very niche offering.

[Shnak]

Hyundai expects to sell 100 Equus in Canada and only a handful of dealers will carry them.  They will not be on the lot in the showroom like a typical vehicle.  You will have to call Hyundai and have them come show you the car, it won't be crossshopped it's a very niche offering.

And even 100 Equus will be a tough sell, no? I mean, the Lexus sells something like 250 LS per year in Canada... If the Equus achieves 100 a year right from the start, that's pretty good I think.

[Railton]

Hyundai expects to sell 100 Equus in Canada and only a handful of dealers will carry them.  They will not be on the lot in the showroom like a typical vehicle.  You will have to call Hyundai and have them come show you the car, it won't be crossshopped it's a very niche offering.

And they really expect to sell to the same demographic as high-end MB and BMW owners?! Do they give  away a miad and and a gardner with each one...and free pickup and delivery on your dry cleaning?
Railton

[Spec5]

Hyundai expects to sell 100 Equus in Canada and only a handful of dealers will carry them.  They will not be on the lot in the showroom like a typical vehicle.  You will have to call Hyundai and have them come show you the car, it won't be crossshopped it's a very niche offering.

And they really expect to sell to the same demographic as high-end MB and BMW owners?! Do they give  away a miad and and a gardner with each one...and free pickup and delivery on your dry cleaning?
Railton

I don't know how many wealthy people you know - but of the few I know there's a good percentage that are major penny pinchers.

A well known luxury brand the Hyundai Equus is not - a hell of a deal the Equus is - my guess is that Hyundai hopes there's at least 100 of those folks out there.

[wing]

They won't do your laundry, but they will pick up and return the car for service, you just call them.  You never have to set foot in a dealership which is nice.